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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Same as above BUT the results won't be as obvious..with a flash, whether you stack or not, it becomes more obvious as tuning is way more refined...in fact in vast number of cases meth distribution and gear to gear fueling/octane delivery will be disrupted with meth and i bet the e85 car would win 8/10 times
    I would be running e85 either way, so would results still be in favor of the intercooler car?

  2. #27
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    Reread above posts Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Reread above posts Click here to enlarge
    I read it, but I was thinking you thought I was going to run meth without e85 if I went that route since you said the "E85" car. I'm leaning towards the intercooler now. Click here to enlarge

  4. #29
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    Given you have E85 get the intercooler, a good intercooler like the Helix, ER or the AMS to prevent heat soak.

    To 110% put the nail in the coffin of every similarly modded N54 with pump+meth you should do a custom flash either as a base for your JB4 or just standalone with a custom pro tune with Cobb. This will remap the DME and take much better advantage of that E85 in your tank as well as lift some of the DME timing compensations that pull timing early as they assume pump gas only octane in your tank.

    With meth only on the car (no E85) I still recommend getting an FMIC for pressure drop reasons but it doesn't have to be as fancy from the point of view of IAT control, just needs to be there for pressure drop reasons to let your turbos live/last longer and not unnecessarily overspin.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 01-11-2013 at 09:51 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Given you have E85 get the intercooler, a good intercooler like the Helix, ER or the AMS to prevent heat soak.

    To 110% put the nail in the coffin of every similarly modded N54 with pump+meth you should do a custom flash either as a base for your JB4 or just standalone with a custom pro tune with Cobb. This will remap the DME and take much better advantage of that E85 in your tank as well as lift some of the DME timing compensations that pull timing early as they assume pump gas only octane in your tank.

    With meth only on the car (no E85) I still recommend getting an FMIC for pressure drop reasons but it doesn't have to be as fancy from the point of view of IAT control, just needs to be there for pressure drop reasons to let your turbos live/last longer and not unnecessarily overspin.

    I would get a protune flash from you guys if I hadn't already chose to go the JB4 route since it seems to be showing really good results, but I think I'm going to stick with the JB4 until I get upgraded turbo's in the future.

    Thanks everyone for the input. I think I'm going to go with the intercooler.

  6. #31
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    In that case there is an amazing FMIC thread in the advanced tech section. Do yourself a favor and read that prior to purchasing one.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justohigh Click here to enlarge
    I would get a protune flash from you guys if I hadn't already chose to go the JB4 route since it seems to be showing really good results, but I think I'm going to stick with the JB4 until I get upgraded turbo's in the future.

    Thanks everyone for the input. I think I'm going to go with the intercooler.
    2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Provided you run an E85 blend and get a custom flash tune for it (appropriate timing, boost, vanos, fuel scalars and AFR) there is nothing a meth only no fmic car can do to win the race in the 1/4 or in a hwy roll given everything else the same and both cars are mechanically sound and use the same tranny.

    Meth distribution across the motor will never provide for the same quality of fuel delivery as what comes from the DI fuel injectors.

    With E85, FMIC first, meth later
    agree, but in my testing, I am finding we can get away with more than stock timing even on 93+meth. But as we both know, we can run even more timing on E85!

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    In that case there is an amazing FMIC thread in the advanced tech section. Do yourself a favor and read that prior to purchasing one.
    Will do. That is how I did the pain in the ass downpipe diy for my car Click here to enlarge

  9. #34
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    That may be true on your car right now and the fact you see currently timing off cyl 1 only but in a vast major of cases even stock timing has trouble with meth only and more often than not people run inadequate mixes or over/under fuel..nothing like some corn in the tank Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Meth will be the biggest bang for your buck. Many people will say that FMIC will benefit you all the time as meth will only benefit during wot. I'm building my second n54 and ill tell you if the car didn't come with an aftermarket FMIC that would have been my last mod. I absolutely loved running meth once Ioved it to the trunk from the WW. The performance gains are leaps and bounds better than what a FMIC will yield and its much cheaper.
    I disagree because you aren't factoring in the cost of baking your turbos running meth post IC with the stock IC. That's an exaggeration based on not enough data, but surely you're driving your turbos MUCH harder in this configuration.

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    Not sure why you say the turbos are working way harder. Air going into the turbo is the same in both configuration. The only difference is possible pressure drop of the stock FMIC. We know that the stock FMIC sucks for iat suppression but I have seem 0 data stating that there is massive pressure drop on the stocker. This being said since method is cooling the charge air post turbo without massive pressure drop turbos are working the same in both scenarios.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I disagree because you aren't factoring in the cost of baking your turbos running meth post IC with the stock IC. That's an exaggeration based on not enough data, but surely you're driving your turbos MUCH harder in this configuration.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Not sure why you say the turbos are working way harder. Air going into the turbo is the same in both configuration. The only difference is possible pressure drop of the stock FMIC. We know that the stock FMIC sucks for iat suppression but I have seem 0 data stating that there is massive pressure drop on the stocker. This being said since method is cooling the charge air post turbo without massive pressure drop turbos are working the same in both scenarios.
    Fair enough. I am pretty sure stock pressure drop was higher though since I gained boost response despite like quadrupling my core volume. Its a slippery slope the higher pressure drop drives you out of the efficiency range exponentially faster.

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    I would get the Intercooler first as it will be more efficient for daily use. I have meth also but I dont find the need to use it everytime. Its for when I want to really push the car is when I have my meth system turned on. Realistically there is no need for meth when your pushing only half throttle. Having a efficient intercooler would be the first before meth IMO

  14. #39
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    I was hoping somebody would chime in with some test data. What I'd like to see for some proof is you typical before/after IC temp drops on a nice warm summer day as well as ambient vs IAT's with just running Meth. I'm curious is Meth enough to cool the IAT's down to the same level of a good IC. Also testing of Pressure before and after the IC's stock and aftermarket. I would think that you would always want IC instead of or before Meth but what do the numbers show.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brusk Click here to enlarge
    I was hoping somebody would chime in with some test data. What I'd like to see for some proof is you typical before/after IC temp drops on a nice warm summer day as well as ambient vs IAT's with just running Meth. I'm curious is Meth enough to cool the IAT's down to the same level of a good IC. Also testing of Pressure before and after the IC's stock and aftermarket. I would think that you would always want IC instead of or before Meth but what do the numbers show.
    I will tell you that meth will lower IATs significantly more than a FMIC alone while spraying. You also will NOT heatsoak with meth. FMIC will eventually heatsoak regardless of which brand it is. I DD'd my meth map so even if I didn't have a FMIC it wouldn't have mattered. I was always spraying. Some people don't and prefer the constant cooling of the FMIC while DD.
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  16. #41
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    you will heat soak the same with/without meth... there's no effect on the IC. The pressure drop subject is guessing... there's not really any data out there. Only 1 FMIC in my opinion is better than stock for pressure drop, but it sucks with IATs. You can't assess IATs between meth/off meth because the sensor data is skewed.

    Its a good subject E85 with meth or IC. I can't argue either way.

  17. #42
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    I'd say I disagree somewhat with this Josh. Sure a car on meth will heatsoak up until the point where meth is sprayed again. When the car is heat soaked, the FMIC no longer has the ability to cool the post turbo air going into the intake tract. Well, the meth nozzles are post FMIC and are cooling that air when the FMIC cannot. Granted the meth is having to cool a much higher charge air temp but at the end of the day it is still cooling it tremendously vs a FMIC that no longer has the ability to cool the air at all.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    you will heat soak the same with/without meth... there's no effect on the IC. The pressure drop subject is guessing... there's not really any data out there. Only 1 FMIC in my opinion is better than stock for pressure drop, but it sucks with IATs. You can't assess IATs between meth/off meth because the sensor data is skewed.

    Its a good subject E85 with meth or IC. I can't argue either way.
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  18. #43
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    There is plenty of data on pressure drop from many N54 FMIC manufacturers. cp-e is in fact one that has published considerable data on their FMIC as well as the stock one and why its one of the offerings we carry and recommend next to the ER (for their extensive road course testing) and AMS (for the best end tank design of them all, 3" in/out and a highly efficient core).

    cp-e's research which I'd suggest to those arguing effects of an FMIC and pressure drop is here:

    http://cp-e.com/sites/default/files/files/n54FMIC.pdf
    Click here to enlarge

  19. #44
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    I forgot about CPE... this is the only one to my knowledge. The others don't have any data from the Manf. to support pressure drop.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I forgot about CPE... this is the only one to my knowledge. The others don't have any data from the Manf. to support pressure drop.
    I personally love their stuff for the level of data gathering they always seem to do. We certainly won't be suggesting anything to anyone unless its either had extensive testing OR extensive data gathered or both and turned out to get a particular job done well
    Click here to enlarge

  21. #46
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    That really is awesome data provided by CP-E
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    How many gallons of meth do most people go through a week?

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vladi627 Click here to enlarge
    How many gallons of meth do most people go through a week?
    Depends on your habit.

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    I am still curious why people think the larger core ICs have a higher pressure drop. It doesn't really work only that way. It all depends on the fin spacing, staggering, etc. A small core could have a larger pressure drop than a larger core. Often they do. The reason to go for a small core with meth is boost response, but I don't think it matters with stock turbos personally, so I would get the larger cores personally.

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