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  1. #151
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    There may be restrictions but the heads are still better. And if you improve them further...



    Exactly.



    True, so we agree the S65 makes more power per pound of boost.




    haha see you can't do that! Different camshaft profiles. The S65 offers greater range, it's true.

    The piston speed is very low with the conservative stroke. Even BMW increases the stroke themselves. And even with the increased stroke it gets nowhere near S54 piston speeds stock.

    But the S54 has a complete different block design,crank layout,...So comparing piston speeds of the two engines is pointless.
    Just because BMW does something(like stroking the S65 a bit) does not mean it is good.
    They prove that over and over again that their engineering is not perfectClick here to enlarge


    I would like to delve more into the bottom end issues though. Perhaps an S65 weakness thread?

    We can do that.



    Would you agree the motor I mentioned is the best BMW V motor for racing though?

    Factory race engine,I agree.And throw in the P60B40 as well.

    I think the 24 Hour of Le Mans is more competitive with higher end entries.
    Half of the 24h Le Mans teams run in Daytona as well.
    24h race is 24h race.And racing is competition.

  2. #152
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    I just think it is ugly Click here to enlarge
    Fair enough. Click here to enlarge But IMO it looks great with a better set of rims. like these:
    Click here to enlarge

    It's more than 50% rigid than the E92, and about %150 more than the E46. It's also ~100 kg lighter than the E46. Click here to enlarge

  3. #153
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    All I've gotten out of this thread is that the OP wants to build a dyno queen on a budget. I have no idea why a 500 WHP goal was set on a race car when ideally you should be strictly focusing on Power/Weight. We also should all be in agreement that since this car is going to spend a hefty amount of time on a road course, the engine should remain NA.

    IMO, the E46 M3 should be the #1. It's the best platform to start with, will be the least expensive initial investment & has the most R&D into aftermarket performance mods. With the $16.5k you've projected for mods, you can easily buy an Evolve Tune, CF/CSL Intake, Headers/Full Exhaust, SSK, more aggressive track suspension and a quality set of track rims & sticky tires. If you decide to keep the car long term, that more power is necessary after you learn how to really drive it with the ~400 BHP (with all your bolt on mods), I'd go with a stroker motor which will take you into the 450 HP area (which is absurd to get that much power out of a 3.5L motor) and enjoy the immediate response only an NA motor can deliver.

    While the N54 with RBs/Vargas Turbos will put down more impressive numbers on a dyno, it'll probably be a nightmare on a track (between turbo lag & overheating) and will require significantly more modifications made to the suspension & drivetrain to get even something remotely as responsive as either of the Ms.


    In addition, if you're gonna spend in the $40k area for a track focused car, there are other non-BMW alternatives that will give you a more solid starting platform with minor mods (for example, I just found an '04 GT3 for $45k)
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  4. #154
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    +1
    +1

    i got negged repp'd for my opinion on this subject lol

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Fair enough. Click here to enlarge But IMO it looks great with a better set of rims. like these:
    Click here to enlarge

    It's more than 50% rigid than the E92, and about %150 more than the E46. It's also ~100 kg lighter than the E46. Click here to enlarge
    Thats awful

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    All I've gotten out of this thread is that the OP wants to build a dyno queen on a budget. I have no idea why a 500 WHP goal was set on a race car when ideally you should be strictly focusing on Power/Weight. We also should all be in agreement that since this car is going to spend a hefty amount of time on a road course, the engine should remain NA.

    IMO, the E46 M3 should be the #1. It's the best platform to start with, will be the least expensive initial investment & has the most R&D into aftermarket performance mods. With the $16.5k you've projected for mods, you can easily buy an Evolve Tune, CF/CSL Intake, Headers/Full Exhaust, SSK, more aggressive track suspension and a quality set of track rims & sticky tires. If you decide to keep the car long term, that more power is necessary after you learn how to really drive it with the ~400 BHP (with all your bolt on mods), I'd go with a stroker motor which will take you into the 450 HP area (which is absurd to get that much power out of a 3.5L motor) and enjoy the immediate response only an NA motor can deliver.

    While the N54 with RBs/Vargas Turbos will put down more impressive numbers on a dyno, it'll probably be a nightmare on a track (between turbo lag & overheating) and will require significantly more modifications made to the suspension & drivetrain to get even something remotely as responsive as either of the Ms.


    In addition, if you're gonna spend in the $40k area for a track focused car, there are other non-BMW alternatives that will give you a more solid starting platform with minor mods (for example, I just found an '04 GT3 for $45k)
    Well if you're going to use "used" prices on the used E46 you should use used prices on the N54 and E9x M




  5. #155
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    Well if you're going to use "used" prices on the used E46 you should use used prices on the N54 and E9x M
    Where did I use "used" prices? -- Any pricing for cars I took from the OPs chart on the 1st page
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  6. #156
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    The n54's turbo lag is extremely minimal.

    I can't wait till the new turbo m kicks the $#@! out of the e9x s65 m in all categories. The only people complaining will be the people that don't own one.
    The lag was enough to bother me but that's why we have different choices for different tastes.

    Of course the newer motor with forced induction will be faster. My older motor with forced induction will kick the $#@! out of the new turbo M though in all categories.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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  7. #157
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    But the S54 has a complete different block design,crank layout,...So comparing piston speeds of the two engines is pointless.
    Just because BMW does something(like stroking the S65 a bit) does not mean it is good.
    They prove that over and over again that their engineering is not perfect
    I'm just saying the S65 piston speed is not all that high even in comparison to other BMW motors. It's a very mild stroke.

    I agree, BMW makes mistakes. But... they know these motors better than anyone and if they increase the stroke it should say something. Don't you think they left stroke on the table on purpose? I do.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    We can do that.
    Awesome!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Factory race engine,I agree.And throw in the P60B40 as well.
    It did go in a street car but good Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Half of the 24h Le Mans teams run in Daytona as well.
    24h race is 24h race.And racing is competition.
    It is and I agree but Le Mans is the more competitive and higher end event.

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  8. #158
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    The n54's turbo lag is extremely minimal.

    I can't wait till the new turbo m kicks the $#@! out of the e9x s65 m in all categories. The only people complaining will be the people that don't own one.
    I wouldn't say it's minimal - not at all. Here's a good test, and yes - I know it's weird, but I'm weird. Take a 335/135i tuned or not - 1st gear rolling 15-20 MPH. Let off the gas completely. As quickly as possible, go full throttle - and then let off completely. Continue this - do it as quickly as possible (nothing much happens).

    I actually made a video of this when BMW loaned me a 335i - just to prove that there is turbo lag when you compare it to a good NA engine. I don't think it's minimal if it's there.

    Now do this on an M3. You won't get the throttle open 10% without feeling the response.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Fair enough. Click here to enlarge But IMO it looks great with a better set of rims. like these:
    Click here to enlarge

    It's more than 50% rigid than the E92, and about %150 more than the E46. It's also ~100 kg lighter than the E46. Click here to enlarge
    Looks aside, its a pretty interesting option as well. 100kg lighter is nothing to sneeze at and with that chasis it should be a real blast to drive.
    2015 F82 M4 - DCT - YMB
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    Looks aside, its a pretty interesting option as well. 100kg lighter is nothing to sneeze at and with that chasis it should be a real blast to drive.
    I think the Z4M looks good.
    ​#Chuckstrong

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Ultimately BMW is going turbo and ditching the NA high revving motor....it may be a mistake, or it may not, time will tell. I don't think anyone complains about the insane performance from a 911 turbo....why can't BMW get the same performance out of a new turbo m3?
    No complaints...but the GT3 is better.Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by BlackJetE90OC; 01-13-2013 at 05:23 PM.

  12. #162
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    The n54's turbo lag is extremely minimal.

    I can't wait till the new turbo m kicks the $#@! out of the e9x s65 m in all categories. The only people complaining will be the people that don't own one.
    Or the new M3 owners that won't get through one track session without a limp mode.

  13. #163
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Or the new M3 owners that won't get through one track session without a limp mode.
    This.

  14. #164
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Or the new M3 owners that won't get through one track session without a limp mode.
    That would suck. Hopefully BMW will design the new m3's cooling system to avoid this.
    ​#Chuckstrong

  15. #165
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Or the new M3 owners that won't get through one track session without a limp mode.
    Does the 1m limp?

    Have you seen the engine bay pics of the new m? Looks like BMW is providing adequate cooling.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Does the 1m limp?

    Have you seen the engine bay pics of the new m? Looks like BMW is providing adequate cooling.
    Yes it has and does go into limp mode. Nice hot summer day at Button Willow, I will get it to limp mode in the first 15 minute session.

    And yes the new FI M's are going into to limp mode. The new M5 did it in two separate tests.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by KB Click here to enlarge
    That would suck. Hopefully BMW will design the new m3's cooling system to avoid this.
    It would, but it is just the nature of the beast. I wish BMW would offer a track focused NA M3/M4 and a daily driver FI version. Similar to the 911 Turbo/GT3 or the Mustang GT500/Boss 302.

  18. #168
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    We shall see.....

    I hadn't heard of 1ms having overheating issues. You must drive very hard....these guys don't have any issues. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=705398
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Or the new M3 owners that won't get through one track session without a limp mode.
    Like the new M5/M6.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    We shall see.....

    I hadn't heard of 1ms having overheating issues. You must drive very hard....these guys don't have any issues. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=705398
    Come on, you know the N54 well. It has heating issues at the track.

    I don't trust anything from there where everyone is a BMW fanboy zombie.

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  21. #171
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Come on, you know the N54 well. It has heating issues at the track.

    I don't trust anything from there where everyone is a BMW fanboy zombie.
    True... But I'm not buying that the next m3 will have overheating issues. I guess I'm optimistic.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    True... But I'm not buying that the next m3 will have overheating issues. I guess I'm optimistic.
    The current M5/M6 do....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by KB Click here to enlarge
    That would suck. Hopefully BMW will design the new m3's cooling system to avoid this.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Have you seen the engine bay pics of the new m? Looks like BMW is providing adequate cooling.
    The new Ms (X5/X6 M, M5, M6 & the M3) all have air/water intercooling. So while it might initially be more effective at cooling, these cars will all suffer the same problem that the current supercharged cars that use air/water face -- heatsoak. Once the water temp gets real high, it's going to be incredibly difficult to get it to cool back down (inevitably the car will go into limp mode 1st if it continues to be tracked).

    SO naturally, once the community starts modding the car people will add an aftermarket intercooling system (gonna be super pricey, Dinan is selling an upgrade for $2.5k). But as long as water is part of the equation, once it's heated up it won't cool back down without some "civil" driving.

    I think that the cooling system & engine layout is garbage. Between a hot motor, two hot turbos & the dual intercoolers, do you really think that the water is gonna be able to fight off limp mode for that long??? I won't be surprised if people start boiling that $#@! up after a few laps.
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  24. #174
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Idiotic. Horrible choice in NA form? I think you're too obsessed with acceleration numbers. It's spectacular in NA form.

    Do you ever actually just drive a car? You know, without racing? If so, the NA S65 is a marvel.
    i feel like you have not driven an N/A S65 before.. oh thats right.. its been like 3 years hasnt it Click here to enlarge for what you expect from a performance car, V8, and at that price, it is horribly under powered. I dont care what "market" its geared to. when the real world kicks in, and an N/A M3 gets walked by just about EVERY car that is likely to show up at a local meet, its pathetic. how it USES the power is a different story. BUT, for how much power it makes, in N/A form, is terrible

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i feel like you have not driven an N/A S65 before.. oh thats right.. its been like 3 years hasnt it Click here to enlarge for what you expect from a performance car, V8, and at that price, it is horribly under powered. I dont care what "market" its geared to. when the real world kicks in, and an N/A M3 gets walked by just about EVERY car that is likely to show up at a local meet, its pathetic. how it USES the power is a different story. BUT, for how much power it makes, in N/A form, is terrible
    Really? It's horribly underpowered with 350 whp stock and faster than the IS-F, RS5, or RS4? Also even with a 6.2 liter V8 from AMG?

    Also seems to be as quick as a 5.0 Mustang GT and a 6.2 liter Camaro. So WTF are you talking about again?

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