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  1. #851
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    I think the better comparison would be s65 vs v8's of other manufactures circa 2007+.
    When was the LS2 produced until?

    The RS4? How about the RS5? The C63? The IS-F? Here you go, IS-F dyno:

    Click here to enlarge

    And the fact the M3 V8 puts out more than a lot of other bigger V8's stands.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    When was the LS2 produced until?

    The RS4? How about the RS5? The C63? The IS-F? Here you go, IS-F dyno:

    http://www.vwboost.com/images/import...sISFDyno-1.jpg

    And the fact the M3 V8 puts out more than a lot of other bigger V8's stands.
    Imo, the numbers are all relatively close. I've seen m3 dyno's of 330ish rwhp, I've seen 5.0's dyno on the low 340's. Like I always say, dyno numbers don't mean $#@!.

  3. #853
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    Imo, the numbers are all relatively close. I've seen m3 dyno's of 330ish rwhp, I've seen 5.0's dyno on the low 340's. Like I always say, dyno numbers don't mean $#@!.
    Regardless, there is plenty of power there.

  4. #854
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    Imo, the numbers are all relatively close. I've seen m3 dyno's of 330ish rwhp, I've seen 5.0's dyno on the low 340's. Like I always say, dyno numbers don't mean $#@!.
    How are the numbers close? You are looking at peak power - look at the area under the curve. The redline of the S65 is 8400 - so you would have to fill the area of that curve 9 MORE "squares" (each one is 250 RPM) to the RIGHT. Think about that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    Imo, the numbers are all relatively close. I've seen m3 dyno's of 330ish rwhp, I've seen 5.0's dyno on the low 340's. Like I always say, dyno numbers don't mean $#@!.
    LOL didn't you know that ALL dynos read the same? I simply can't believe the lengths he's going to make the S65 vastly superior to EVERYTHING else out there..now alll of a sudden a dyno chart also showcases superiority in engine design! Just incredibly shallow Sticky but I'm sure you'll keep on going no matter what


    Look at the motor in the new Fiat Abarth, thing of beauty with about 1/3rd of displacement and much less power on a dyno graph
    Click here to enlarge

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    And of course they mean something, you are just not taking the entire area into consideration. Why in the name of God do they not actually give the actual area under the curve as a measurement is beyond me... You are right to some degree however, for example ram-air: a fan blowing 40 miles an hour isn't going to be indicative of real power when the car is traveling 100 MPH at that RPM in real life. But, you cannot dismiss their baseline.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    LOL didn't you know that ALL dynos read the same? I simply can't believe the lengths he's going to make the S65 vastly superior to EVERYTHING else out there..now alll of a sudden a dyno chart also showcases superiority in engine design! Just incredibly shallow Sticky but I'm sure you'll keep on going no matter what


    Look at the motor in the new Fiat Abarth, thing of beauty with about 1/3rd of displacement and much less power on a dyno graph
    What do you mean about the Abarth? I have never seen the power curve, is it good?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    LOL didn't you know that ALL dynos read the same? I simply can't believe the lengths he's going to make the S65 vastly superior to EVERYTHING else out there..now alll of a sudden a dyno chart also showcases superiority in engine design! Just incredibly shallow Sticky but I'm sure you'll keep on going no matter what
    I'm sorry I've discussed a ton of various aspects of the design all of which you ignore and then jump to something else. Those dynos were posted in a direct response to a statement of the S65 being underpowered versus all V8's. Well, it's a lot more powerful than a whole lot of other V8's. Fact, as presented with dynos.

    Sorry making an argument and supporting it with evidence disturbs you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    What do you mean about the Abarth? I have never seen the power curve, is it good?
    Its not about power but sticky is now all over dyno charts to prove superior engine design because it makes power on less displacement than some others Click here to enlarge of course again totally makes sense...not only that he's using DYNO charts for these comparos
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #860
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Its not about power but sticky is now all over dyno charts to prove superior engine design because it makes power on less displacement than some others
    Do you just not read and make up words and thoughts on your own as you see fit? I'm curious.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Do you just not read and make up words and thoughts on your own as you see fit? I'm curious.
    Get personal all you want these arguments on engine design superiority hold no merit whatsoever..not saying S65 is not a great motor but you haven't personally presented a single argument to properly validate it
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Get personal all you want these arguments on engine design superiority hold no merit whatsoever..not saying S65 is not a great motor but you haven't personally presented a single argument to properly validate it
    How's it personal to ask you a question regarding your understanding of what you are reading? Statement was made regarding the M3 being outpowered by every V8, dynos posted in response to said statement refuting it, what are you having trouble with?

    How is that not proper validation?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If the M3 needed more power it would have came with it!!! - (says the owner of a built motor boosted S65.. an owner of an N/A bolt on S65, and a kid that doesnt own an S65.. odd isnt it..)
    You're wildin right now... LMAO
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    I found the read of the sport auto article very fascinating. Also because my own car is to some extent similar to the Alpina B3 GT3 and because I was there on a track day last year when the Alpina test drivers did the suspension setup testing for the Nordschleife.

    The B3 GT3 is a great car, and congrats to BMW for providing us with a basis that one can get so much out of. Similar times on both the famous Hockenheimring and Nordschleife to the M3 GTS at around 50.000 EUR less cost, that's really fantastic.

    I'm saying similar times on both circuits because the time difference between both cars is really negligible. Even more so on the Nordschleife which is so long that a few seconds here don't matter - with a different driver, other weather conditions or another set of tires the result could again be slightly different. It's not like the sport auto times - although they are done with setups that aim to be as comparable as possible - are some sort of scale that is accurate to 1/1000 of a second. They're just a good indication what a car is capable of.

    Just for the record (because I keep reading that some claim the Alpina to be a "race car" with a "rebuilt engine" or some such), the B3 GT3 has the same engine as other B3 Biturbo cars, which is again an ordinary N54 with low compression pistons (that are mostly in there to account for difference in fuel quality and actually lead to a more inefficient engine when compared to the original pistons); nothing else has been modified in the engine. Otherwise the main differences to a stock 335i are KW3 coilovers, a StopTech BBK, a Drexler LSD and a flash tune; and the shifting times of the AT are faster as ZF provides Alpina with an improved gearbox software.

    It's not really surprising that the Alpina B3 GT3 performs so well on the Nordschleife. Those of you who have already driven there will undoubtedly agree that it is a circuit where torque is far more valuable than peak power. And the N54 disposes of far more torque than the M3 engine, even if the latter can make up for this to some extent with the double clutch transmission. That gives the Alpina excellent possibilities in the various sections of the 'Ring that go uphill (and there are lots of those). That would also be my explanation why the Alpina, although nominally having an engine with less peak power, is just as fast on this track.

    I have seen (and driven) quite a lot of 335i and Alpina B3 on the 'Ring, some of which were tuned far more aggressively than the B3 GT3 and had comparable suspension modifications. There is no doubt that one of these cars - in the hand of the right driver - would improve the lap time further, thereby widening the gap with the M3 even more.

    Great work, both Alpina for improving the 335i and BMW for providing such a formidable engine as the N54. It will be very interesting to see how the new M3 will turn out, considering it will have a setup that will apparently be more similar to the Alpina than to the current M3 as far as the engine is concerned.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    Okay, I shouldn't have said "rebuild" - this is correct, but changing pistons is not a small thing, the effective displacement went up, and who knows if the strength of the original parts had a part in their decision. I don't know... Lowering the compression of the engine is so they could increase the boost to 1.1 BAR (their words, not mine) - so it's not to make it more "inefficient" as you mention above.

    Regarding the torque - it doesn't matter. It just doesn't. And it's not related to DCT - look at the flexibility and/or first couple acceleration times (where DCT is not in effect, as there is no shifts)... The GTS beats the Alpina with CONSIDERABLY less torque. It's can accomplish this via GEARING and a large rev range. Again, torque and revs are equal in their contribution to power. I find it hilarious when people talk about the S65 as being torque-less, but fail to mention that most other (if not all but one or two) production v8s in this category redline 2000 RPM sooner.

    Also, the difference in price is not as much as you say - the Alpina lists for 90,000 pounds, the GTS is 114,000-120,000 pounds.

    Just to reiterate, the acceleration numbers:

    Low torque M3 -- High torque Alpina (both cars can reach 60km/h in 1st)
    0-40kmh 1.3 1.6
    0-60 2.5 2.2

    That's more than a fair amount considering they haven't shifted yet... If you look at the flexibility numbers on the top part of the article, it shows you how much more power there really is in the GTS.

  15. #865
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    [QUOTE=Sticky;380617]What is the fact? You aren't showing any facts. You really are hurting yourself as you are appearing incredibly ignorant and just somewhat plain stupid to everyone.

    C5 Z06 stock dyno, M3 matches it in power despite not having 5.7 liters:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...1dad0cd3-1.jpg





    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?

    Here's a stock 6.2 liter LS2 out of a CTS-V:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...Baseline-1.jpg


    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?



    Here's an E39 M5 S62 with modifications, this is a 5.0 liter V8, the M3 matches it in power with 4.0 liters completely stock:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im.../evo_ss2-1.jpg

    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?







    Here's a hemi 5.7 liter dyno, the S65 makes more power:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...3BestRun-1.jpg


    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?





    Here's a Mustang Cobra 4.6 liter V8, look at how much more power the S65 is making despite its displacement disadvantage:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...tsaedyno-1.jpg


    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?




    Here's a B7 RS4 which is the actual competition, not even worth mentioning in comparison:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...3c9fb0_b-1.jpg


    right, the one motor that less impressive than the S65

    So what are you talking about?

    talking about that you are MAXED on the S65, are you not? you keep throwing these "equal" dyno's, but that contradicts that these are "less state of tune" and when modded, rape the modded S65's, because, in your own words, its a tapped out v6 (S65)


    how are you not grasping this? you went through a lot of effort to show that that S65, from 2007, is less impressive in output than equal V8's of its time, and equal to older V8's..good try. i guess it solidifies that you are content with it only "keeping up", despite being the FLAGSHIP vehicle..


    QUOTE],

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's brought up because they just use the stock S65. Go race with a stock N54 and see how you do.



    Imagine a world where you were capable of reading comprehension.
    funny, your delusional. where did i ever mention the N54.. once again, your grasping at fictional straws here..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm sorry, you're just not making sense.


    to a delusinoal person that rates everything in life as compared to its class, sure.. but life doesnt have classes does it?
    you have yet to answer why you HAD to boost the S65..

    Oh, I see the problem. Hold on everyone, this is the issue. Someone doesn't understand what displacement is.

    very aware of what displacement is. you seem to think that i care what displacement they chose, as a correlation to 8 vehicles in a race class, dictate what the public gets..

    Here, hold on, let me help you:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...01/Vjgo1-1.png

    See, this is basic engine discussion. There is a thing called displacement. Do you how when engines are compared they go by displacement category? Notice how they do not go by if it has a V and 8 cylinders? Want to know why? Because there are a myriad of different combinations. It's ok that you did not understand this, we all learn at different rates.

    they? who is they? the public when shopping for a car? funny, i didnt get that memo i had to shop for sports cars by that criteria..

    How so? Well, first of all, you need to learn what you are discussing.

    ahh, here it is. you cant win the topic that i chose to discuss, so you have to tell me what topic im discussing, to attempt to show what i have shown as fact, is not, when in reality, it is. fact. as ever other person agree's, a more powerful s65 variant, would have them wanting an s65 powered M..

    You see, the C63 AMG Black Series has an M156 that includes the internals from the M159 V8 in the SLS AMG. The C63 Black Series base price is $105,875. Now, if you were to take a higher end M3, say a GTS, you would have a far more comparable result.

    but why do you only choose one motor, when ive shown more than 1. oh, then you brought up the p65, then the coyote, and ls2/3 and many more. so, you see, now you argue price, but if i argue price, price doesnt matter?

    So, it's ok, you didn't understand what you were saying and did not understand you were not comparing apples to apples. Also, the standard C63 you mentioned taking from whatever wheel to 450 does not apply as it does not have the same motor internals.

    obviously, i live in a secluded world, where people wanting a rwd, v8. coupe, would not cross shop a rwd, v8, coupe, with a rwd, v8, coupe..

    I hope this is clear for you now. Although I doubt you'll get it.
    no, i dont speak stupid..sorry

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    This gets better as it goes... The HEMI motor is a horrid motor in an insanely heavy its not well regarded outside of the Mopar arena.

    Here's my question, sans boost whats the power of a full bolt on S65 motor to the wheels?

    I think what Lost is getting to is that the other competitor motors will make more power in all motor state than the S65 ever will. So if 430whp is the max a stroker setup generates a stroker LS1/2/3/6 motor will match those numbers unstroked on stock internals. Thats worth noting where the S65 is maxed out the others are just getting started despite the great rpms and technology in the motor.

    Frankly comparing any Euro V8 to a US V8 is not always fair in some regards. The US motors tend to have a ton of aftermarket support the Euro motors do not. The euro motors are usually smaller displacement and packing more technology. Thats not always the case of course hopefully everyone gets what I am saying here.
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

  19. #869
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    funny, your delusional. where did i ever mention the N54.. once again, your grasping at fictional straws here..
    Ok so the N54 would get smacked around racing in stock form, thanks for that.

    So what motor is it in the this OP that you are soooo stoked on?

    What engine is it you would race with out of the box that you would be dominating the M3 with? None of its actual competition...

  20. #870
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    [QUOTE=LostMarine;380858]
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What is the fact? You aren't showing any facts. You really are hurting yourself as you are appearing incredibly ignorant and just somewhat plain stupid to everyone.

    C5 Z06 stock dyno, M3 matches it in power despite not having 5.7 liters:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...1dad0cd3-1.jpg





    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?

    Here's a stock 6.2 liter LS2 out of a CTS-V:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...Baseline-1.jpg


    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?



    Here's an E39 M5 S62 with modifications, this is a 5.0 liter V8, the M3 matches it in power with 4.0 liters completely stock:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im.../evo_ss2-1.jpg

    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?







    Here's a hemi 5.7 liter dyno, the S65 makes more power:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...3BestRun-1.jpg


    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?





    Here's a Mustang Cobra 4.6 liter V8, look at how much more power the S65 is making despite its displacement disadvantage:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...tsaedyno-1.jpg


    and what does it get bolt-on? more than 370?




    Here's a B7 RS4 which is the actual competition, not even worth mentioning in comparison:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...3c9fb0_b-1.jpg


    right, the one motor that less impressive than the S65

    So what are you talking about?

    talking about that you are MAXED on the S65, are you not? you keep throwing these "equal" dyno's, but that contradicts that these are "less state of tune" and when modded, rape the modded S65's, because, in your own words, its a tapped out v6 (S65)


    how are you not grasping this? you went through a lot of effort to show that that S65, from 2007, is less impressive in output than equal V8's of its time, and equal to older V8's..good try. i guess it solidifies that you are content with it only "keeping up", despite being the FLAGSHIP vehicle..


    QUOTE],
    I'm not going to reply to posts that aren't formatted correctly. Quote and respond correctly as your post is just a big mess.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    to a delusinoal person that rates everything in life as compared to its class, sure.. but life doesnt have classes does it?
    you have yet to answer why you HAD to boost the S65..
    Context:

    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    very aware of what displacement is. you seem to think that i care what displacement they chose, as a correlation to 8 vehicles in a race class, dictate what the public gets..
    Of course you don't care, you ignore everything except bolt on's. Good criteria for evaluation you have.

    How could a panel of the world's best engine engineers possibly know more than you?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    they? who is they? the public when shopping for a car? funny, i didnt get that memo i had to shop for sports cars by that criteria..
    Apparently you used the wrong criteria for what mattered to you. I'm sorry you didn't know what you were buying and that you don't understand your own motor and car.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    ahh, here it is. you cant win the topic that i chose to discuss, so you have to tell me what topic im discussing, to attempt to show what i have shown as fact, is not, when in reality, it is. fact. as ever other person agree's, a more powerful s65 variant, would have them wanting an s65 powered M..
    Actually it's that you didn't understand the differences in the M156. See, when you bring up a motor and don't even know the details about the motor you are bringing up that's a bit of a problem. It's ok you didn't understand the differences in the C63 Black Series, I explained them to you.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    but why do you only choose one motor, when ive shown more than 1. oh, then you brought up the p65, then the coyote, and ls2/3 and many more. so, you see, now you argue price, but if i argue price, price doesnt matter?
    What is the one motor I have chosen? You have a plethora of engines I have shown the M3 to be more powerful than, equal to, whatever. So what's your point?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    obviously, i live in a secluded world, where people wanting a rwd, v8. coupe, would not cross shop a rwd, v8, coupe, with a rwd, v8, coupe..
    The BMW M3 and the Mustang are not what people cross shop. Just because two car have V8's and rear wheel drive does not make them the same style of car. A Ferrari 458 has a V8 and rear wheel drive and is a coupe too. I guess the M3 should be targeting it?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    no, i dont speak stupid..sorry
    No, you just type it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    Here's my question, sans boost whats the power of a full bolt on S65 motor to the wheels?
    Did you not read the thread? 441 whp dyno posted. No cam work, no head work. It will do over 500 whp if someone spends the money to take it there.

    Just like how early GT3 motors can match the new GT3 motors when displacement is increased, new cams, and more revs.

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    Best idea yet! Rep for you Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by funkmobster Click here to enlarge
    I think this is a good start for organizing a ultimate N54 vs S65 batlle Click here to enlarge
    Some sort or roll race event where the best N54's batlle the best S65's.

    Do it before this dumb thread reaches the 1000 posts mark.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    I think what Lost is getting to is that the other competitor motors will make more power in all motor state than the S65 ever will. So if 430whp is the max a stroker setup generates a stroker LS1/2/3/6 motor will match those numbers unstroked on stock internals. Thats worth noting where the S65 is maxed out the others are just getting started despite the great rpms and technology in the motor.
    Of course bigger motors will make more power NA. Is this ground breaking news?

    How about the S85 naturally aspirated, how does it do? How about versus the Coyote of equal displacement? Doesn't it trounce it? Same architecture as the S65. What is so hard to understand here? Clearly the engineering and design is superior if one motor of the same displacement makes far more power with more capability.

    I love how the M3 is compared against bigger motors yet people just completely ignore the design which makes it as powerful as it is to begin with and ABLE to compete with larger V8's.

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    This thread went from a motor thread, to a car thread.

    Talking about JUST the motor vs price to acquire motor + mod that motor.




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