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  1. #626
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    @dzenno@ProTUNING Freak, please look at the top chart at the URL we are looking at. It provides ALL the performance data, the Alpina has worse accelerative flexibility [which is what is touted as being SO GOOD about the N54/55], loses at the Nurburgring (7:49.3 vs 7:48.3 for the M3), loses at the Dunlop handling track [wet] (1:42.0 vs 1:36.8], loses at ALL acceleration numbers - INCLUDING ALL SPEEDS BEFORE THE M3 even SHIFTS GEARS (showing that even off the line, without shifting [DCT is not helping here] - it's faster all the way to 200 km/h or 120 MPH - at that speed, the M3 is ahead by 2 FULL SECONDS.

    The results that you are looking at (the subjective numbers like 62) are given by the magazine the scores by the writer of the article - in other words subjective, and also they gave the Alpina the edge in a tie due to it's lower displacement (which is fair). The Alpina DID WIN on their test track, however - it lost on the other two tracks. It also lost in every other performance metric other than some skidpad and slalom. I am talking about engine right now. I am trying to show that "this under tuned" car as you say - is NOT UNDERTUNED. It's a purpose build race engine by Alpina with NEW STRONGER INTERNALS (rebuilt engine), among other things. This is leap years ahead of "bolt ons" - it's ridiculous to compare your car to this, it's not even close.
    You're comparing straight line acceleration numbers now on a motor that for the last 5 years has shown to have A LOT more in it on pump gas even with higher stock 10.2:1 compression than what Alpina runs on this B3 GT3. You're also clearly missing the point in torque multiplication, gearing and the fact the DCT can accelerate from the standstill and shift faster getting going from zero due to its launch control which the regular auto tranny on the B3 GT3 doesn't have.

    I'm done discussing this at this point. We're running in circles here constantly and I've been saying that from the beginning of this nonsense that was introduced into this thread. I got involved when Sticky started to bash the N54 the way he usually does and use numbers for an S65 that were accomplished with a P65 in ALMS.

    In conclusion, both motors are great. They are purpose built for different things and they can't be compared side by side in design as one is built for N/A and the other for FI from the factory so different design strategies apply. Bottom line is in tuned form they can perform very close to each other in 99.99% of the situations including road course (minus endurance racing which isn't an off the shelf S65) as they share the chasis and given the same tires/same suspension setup they'll be very close. In this case I'd take the N54 to get the low end kick as well when/if I need it.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 01-15-2013 at 12:23 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  2. #627
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    It lacks compared to its direct competition. Or is the stock N54 your new reference engine now?
    It has more than its direct competition so you're point makes no sense. It only lacks a few whp versus the C63 which is much heavier with no DCT. So is reality not your reference now?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    The S54 was superior to pretty much everything in its class when it hit the street. S65 not so much...think AMG C63, Audi RS5 etc.
    But you can continue to live in your bubble and worship the awesome throttle response. E9x M3 is still a great track car once you rip 300 lbs out of the car.
    It was? The B5 RS4 had quite a bit more power and torque didn't it? The C32 was supercharged wasn't it and AMG fanboys were saying how their motor was so much more powerful yet stock for stock the E46 M3 was faster? Audi then threw a V8 in the S4 and the S54 was still faster wasn't it? The Porsche GT3 flat-6 in the 996 was superior wasn't it? So what are you talking about?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    SportAuto did the testing...
    Sounds like they need to test again. Let me know when the Alpina laps the ring in 7:48. Last I checked the GTS is the fastest BMW around there and no Alpina is in sight.

  3. #628
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    Lol Sticky stop denying the obvious...now youre gonna say Sport Auto got paid off by Alpina to make their car look better than the M3....

    You are touting all your claims from magazines and other stats, so now there are stats from another magazine that say it isnt the best, and you say its not possible?
    Seriously are you crazy?

    Deny what obvious?

    The GTS is LIGHTER and MORE POWERFUL with adjustable suspension and aerodynamics for the track and you think some pile of junk Alpina that is a 335 with a tune is equal to it?

    The GTS has 444 horsepower and is 300 pounds lighter than the standard M3. I don't think you even know what it is because if you did you would realize how absurd your post is.

    The E46 M3 CSL will run circles around the Alpina too btw.

  4. #629
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    No it's not... Not trying to be a dick here but I am more than aware of the B3 GTS (read this article), it's over a full second slower on their tested track in the dry, over 6 seconds slower in the wet. 0-100 miles an hour, the GTS comes in at 8.9 seconds, the N54 10.0s - that's huge. 0-120? Now the GTS is 2 seconds ahead. Hmm... Similar peak power levels - and basically same weight (within 10s of kilograms), and the N54 has higher torque - but the GTS is basically killing the N54 - how is that possible?

    I am not even going to delve into braking and other chassis related things, but it's not close - not when we are talking full seconds... That's huge around a course.

    If anything, considering the two cars of of very similar weight, this shows WHY an S motor is so good: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=761943
    It's a night and day difference.

    I'm honestly ashamed at the knowledge level that anyone thinks some Alpina is equal to the most hardcore road racer BMW has ever produced.

    People are willing to believe anything without any support if it's pro-N54 and anti-S65. Amazing honestly.

  5. #630
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    Let's add some truth here. This is not just a simple bolt on 335i. Taken directly from Alpina's site. 6 piston brakes. Yup, definitely not 335. Coilovers. Not 335. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires. Definitely not 335. And it has a LSD. Definitely not 335.
    Powertrain

    The exceptionally smooth twin turbocharged 3.0 liter in line six-cylinder engine from the BMW ALPINA B3 S Bi-Turbo - with its massive torque and effortless performance - is also employed in the B3 GT3.
    By re-designing sections of the exhaust system and fitting a new rear silencer the exhaust back pressure has been reduced, increasing output in the B3 GT3 by 8hp. The direct petrol injected engine now delivers a total power output of 408hp at 6000rpm and 540Nm of torque at 4500rpm.


    High performance fixed calliper brake system

    Besides exceptional acceleration, in 4.5s from 0-100km/h, and a fulminant power delivery, negative acceleration also plays a pivotal role in satisfying the demands of enthusiast drivers.

    The B3 GT3 features a high performance motor sport brake set-up with 6-piston fixed callipers at the front and 4-piston fixed calliper at the rear, with grooved discs measuring 380 x 35 mm at the front and 355 x 32 mm at the rear. The brake callipers are painted in blue with discrete ALPINA writing in silver.

    Overall, the brakes are designed for high stress and load under forced conditions and are characterised by excellent fading resistance, good modulation (control) and response - without sacrificing comfort and practicality.


    Titanium rear silencer and tailpipes, lightweight made by Akrapovič

    Developed in collaboration with Akrapovič, the renowned specialist for Titanium exhaust systems, the B3 GT3 exhaust system is lightweight, impressive yet elegant in appearance and, in keeping with the character of the car, has a raspy sound.

    The use of Titanium for the rear silencer and tailpipes, in addition to other constructional design measures such as the removal of the middle silencer, the use of an x-section and significantly larger diameter pipes, has resulted not only in a reduction in back pressure but also a weight saving of 33% (11kg).

    Taking design cues from the B6 GT3 race car and in order to support weight reduction efforts, the exhaust system ‘only‘ has two typically ALPINA oval shaped tailpipes but of increased diameter (115mm). In addition to its heat protective function, the lightweight carbon tailpipe trim provides for a more aggressive design.

    Extensive sound development measures where aimed at achieving a natural, unfiltered and typical six cylinder sound.


    All cars are equipped with a rear axle with a Drexler limited slip differential, similar to the B6 GT3 race car. Every B3 GT3 is labelled with a specially designed production plaque in the interior.
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  6. #631
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    LOL Sticky you're too funny. So now you're clinging on the Alpina 400hp/398tq CRANK numbers vs. the M3 GTS Click here to enlarge you clearly don't know what to say or which way to bs anymore
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #632
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm honestly ashamed at the knowledge level that anyone thinks some Alpina is equal to the most hardcore road racer BMW has ever produced.
    That's EXACTLY the point. That Alpina car isn't even trying! LOL
    Click here to enlarge

  8. #633
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Let's add some truth here. This is not just a simple bolt on 335i. Taken directly from Alpina's site. 6 piston brakes. Yup, definitely not 335. Coilovers. Not 335. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires. Definitely not 335. And it has a LSD. Definitely not 335.
    Powertrain


    The exceptionally smooth twin turbocharged 3.0 liter in line six-cylinder engine from the BMW ALPINA B3 S Bi-Turbo - with its massive torque and effortless performance - is also employed in the B3 GT3.
    By re-designing sections of the exhaust system and fitting a new rear silencer the exhaust back pressure has been reduced, increasing output in the B3 GT3 by 8hp. The direct petrol injected engine now delivers a total power output of 408hp at 6000rpm and 540Nm of torque at 4500rpm.


    High performance fixed calliper brake system

    Besides exceptional acceleration, in 4.5s from 0-100km/h, and a fulminant power delivery, negative acceleration also plays a pivotal role in satisfying the demands of enthusiast drivers.

    The B3 GT3 features a high performance motor sport brake set-up with 6-piston fixed callipers at the front and 4-piston fixed calliper at the rear, with grooved discs measuring 380 x 35 mm at the front and 355 x 32 mm at the rear. The brake callipers are painted in blue with discrete ALPINA writing in silver.

    Overall, the brakes are designed for high stress and load under forced conditions and are characterised by excellent fading resistance, good modulation (control) and response - without sacrificing comfort and practicality.


    Titanium rear silencer and tailpipes, lightweight made by Akrapovič

    Developed in collaboration with Akrapovič, the renowned specialist for Titanium exhaust systems, the B3 GT3 exhaust system is lightweight, impressive yet elegant in appearance and, in keeping with the character of the car, has a raspy sound.

    The use of Titanium for the rear silencer and tailpipes, in addition to other constructional design measures such as the removal of the middle silencer, the use of an x-section and significantly larger diameter pipes, has resulted not only in a reduction in back pressure but also a weight saving of 33% (11kg).

    Taking design cues from the B6 GT3 race car and in order to support weight reduction efforts, the exhaust system ‘only‘ has two typically ALPINA oval shaped tailpipes but of increased diameter (115mm). In addition to its heat protective function, the lightweight carbon tailpipe trim provides for a more aggressive design.

    Extensive sound development measures where aimed at achieving a natural, unfiltered and typical six cylinder sound.


    All cars are equipped with a rear axle with a Drexler limited slip differential, similar to the B6 GT3 race car. Every B3 GT3 is labelled with a specially designed production plaque in the interior.
    Definitely an amazing car, glad you realized that. Now all its missing is just a tiny bit more ballz in its tune, done, and I'm not talking upping boost at all. Interesting that this car didn't LIMP around any of those tracks either LOL
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #634
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I was wondering if I was reading the same article lol, the 335 takes it
    No, it doesn't:

    Click here to enlarge

    And the Alpina being tested later in different conditions and still slower than a slow magazine time means what?

    Standard M3 with racing seats and similar tires to the Alpina, 7:36, suck on it:



    Someone would have to be a retard to think that pile of crap Alpina makes anywhere near as good of a road course car as the M3 let alone the M3 GTS.

  10. #635
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    That's EXACTLY the point. That Alpina car isn't even trying! LOL
    It's tuned with race suspension and R compound tires with extra downforce, how can it not be trying any harder?

  11. #636
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I don't think you've read the stats right. Suggest reading it again. And its funny you're taking 0-100mph numbers as you said straight line doesn't matter.

    In addition to that, the B3 GTS beat the M3 and the M3 GTS in both skidpad and 2 of the 3 tracks tested: Nordschleife and Hockenheim.

    Sport Auto called the B3 GTS "the legitimate successor of the BMW M3 CSL"

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...13510517-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...13510516-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...13510516-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...13510516-1.jpg


    AND THE OVERALL STATS:


    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...13510516-1.jpg

    You really believe the lighter car, with more power, that accelerates faster, with suspension adjustable to the track you are on is losing to the Alpina? Really?

    I have a bridge to sell you.

  12. #637
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    No it didn't - it WON on the Ring, won on Dunlop wet - by HUGE amounts, and lost on their track by .3 seconds...
    EXACTLY

    It lost on a tighter track because they didn't adjust the suspension or aeroydynamics like you should with a car that comes with race suspension stock...

  13. #638
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    Problem here sticky is, it's BTG or bridge to gap. There's another 15-20 seconds I believe or so to finish the lap. Sport Auto calculated it but I forget exactly. So this lap time here is irrelevant.
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  14. #639
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Do you realize the m3 gts had a dct tranny vs the regular auto on the b3 gts? Results are now even more impressive given less power on the b3 gts Click here to enlarge that b3 was tuned for what 350whp? We have stock 335i tuned on pump doing that with ease
    It still hasn't clicked with you with you that this isn't about tuning but if you want to go that route ok boost the S65 and it's game over. Next?

  15. #640
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Two cars of similar weight, similar power, one having MUCH more torque. The M3 beats the more torquier car by a FULL second 0-100 MPH, TWO full seconds 0-160. It follows that it wins on both Dunlop Wet by SIX FULL SECONDS, and wins on Nurburgring by ONE FULL SECOND. Yes, it does lose by .3s on their test track, and I will just give that to you even though the Alpina has better tires in the test.
    The "weak" S65 whooping on the tuned N54 in acceleration... I don't know what else they want.

  16. #641
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    This alpina car has a mild tune, intake and a exhaust. Not even a catback exhaust, just a add on. It's not a fbo 335. 90% of our 335's on this forum would beat this car. Suspension isn't clear but looks like kw coilovers and wheels/tires from a quick google search.
    Cool dude, you beat that car in a pull then limp home while the M3 GTS is doing lap after lap. Awesome.

  17. #642
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cisi Click here to enlarge
    what if the new m3 has an electric turbo assisting the other ones? lag would be gon than... but you dont know in depth specs and driveability ist not about beeing faster.
    but you really dont get it, this statement has proven it finally. Nothing more to say on top of this.
    No it won't be and there won't be an electric turbo eliminating lag. Put the kool-aid down.

  18. #643
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I just don't understand after seeing these numbers how this isn't sufficient evidence that this is a better motor for motor sport/racing. That's all I am trying to say. For fun? I have no idea - but I like high revving NA engines, I take my car to a track and don't want to deal with cooling issues, turbo lag, poor response, etc. These numbers are indisputable evidence of the S65 being "better".
    It's arguing with people who aren't even able to process the argument.

    You mention the motor being the best in the 4.0 liter category and awarded as such and then someone brings up bolt ons with a 5.0 liter V8.

    Someone says it gets beat by its competition and then you point out actually it beats all its competition and its ignored.

    Someone says its weak in acceleration and then you point out it actually holds all the E9X acceleration records.

    Someone points out it is used in the highest levels of motorsport as well as several racing classes where it races professionally against and beats this other "superior" V8's and its ignored.

    Reality is just being dismissed. There is no comparison between the quality, design, and engineering of these motors. You give a motor turbos and it masks its design deficiencies because you just keep throwing boost at it to make power paying no attention to the curve and power delivery. The S65 is buttery smooth in comparison. I'm honestly shocked. Some of the blind are leading the blind.

  19. #644
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    The Alpina is 0.3 seconds faster in Hockenheim.
    Same lap times on the Ring.

    I know that flexibility numbers are without shifting,thanks.

    And cup tires are semi slicks,$#@! to drive in the wet.
    The Alpina doesn't have the same time on the ring its slower and the M3 GTS had run much faster as well.

    You really think some heavier car with less power is going to keep up with a car BMW made as competition to the GT3? Hah, ok Click here to enlarge

  20. #645
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    How is it nonsense? I'm quoting the specs of the car. It makes 402hp/398tq....not wheel, crank. My car makes more power than that. I'm just trying to point out that it isn't a fbo 335.
    And once again power is not the deciding factor of motor design. The S65 is a superior motor for the roadcourse and a superior designed motor.

    The S65 is chosen OVER the Nissan GTR motor and Porsche flat-6's including the turbo motor year after, for four straight years actually. None of the other motors on the market match its power delivery or response.

    It's the best. As awarded. Period.

  21. #646
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    i think everyone knows the S65 is a better track motor
    Apparently not everyone.

  22. #647
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Agreed. There are some passionate people on here that truely believe their cause is the best.
    How one can not believe the S65 is a superior design is beyond me. It is the best.

    The entire motor requires more engineering than the N54 ever saw. It doesn't have crappy cast pieces. It doesn't have a junk torque curve. It was the motor the BMW M division put their name on. They weren't willing to do that with the N54, why?

  23. #648
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Seriously now, where are you getting your facts? They just drop compression to 9.4:1 ABSOLUTELY same everything else. I don't think we can go on discussing things like this as there's CLEARLY a lack of understanding of the complete topic here and an even larger lack of in-car experience in a road course prepped N54 for most people here.
    What N54 experience roadcourse experience do you have that will change the S65 being the superior road course motor with far more victories under its belt? Actually, the N54 has 0 in any racing series I know of.

    The fact Alpina masks the N54 deficiencies does not make it better than the S65 it just makes it not quite as bad as the standard N54.

  24. #649
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    You're comparing straight line acceleration numbers now on a motor that for the last 5 years has shown to have A LOT more in it on pump gas even with higher stock 10.2:1
    So what? You called the S65 weak but here it is whooping on an N54 with built internals.

    So how in the world is it weak? How is it "slower" than its competition?

    The only thing that is slow is some N54 owner reasoning.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    LOL Sticky you're too funny. So now you're clinging on the Alpina 400hp/398tq CRANK numbers vs. the M3 GTS Click here to enlarge you clearly don't know what to say or which way to bs anymore
    What are you talking about? The M3 GTS beats it resoundingly and the acceleration numbers are so one-sided its laughable. You're clinging to... nothing?

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