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  1. #276
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Originally Posted by inlineS54B32
    I mean, at this point - it seems like BMW should just throw some 8 liter V8s in their M cars, would make everyone very happy with all that "pullin' torque". I can't tell if people are being serious right now, it's like the people that have posted here for the past couple years have just lost their minds.

    Holy $#@!, I mean I understand making your car fast in a straight line, M or not - but the M is NOT made only for this. I thought this was understood by everyone. Take your car to a damn race track at least once before you dismiss the car as crap. Race it against more powerful cars with higher displacement or turbos... I am shocked to see this to be honest.
    Again, suspension setups, tires, LSD talk. Take a 1M bone stock, cool it down properly, run pump gas and run circles around that S65.
    Maybe this is true, to be honest - I have never driven a 1M, but would love to. What I am referring to is the difference between a 335is and an M3. I am talking about M cars. A 1M basically has all the suspension and braking bits from the M3, with an N55 engine. It's lighter, more nimble - etc. than the M3. I would be willing to bet that given the two cars - one stock M3 and one non-stock 1M - both having very similar power outputs, the 1M WOULD be faster on a track.

    You are right, it's NOT just the engine, it's the whole package. However, the thing that was special about the M series has been it's engine - this has been true since they have been around. The goal is to have a VERY CONSISTENT engine, meaning a very flat torque curve. You don't want to be mid-corner, providing a correction to counter some oversteer and have 1 more PSI of boost than you expected at some throttle opening. You want to have the exact amount of torque as you did the last time. Yes, the turbos have came a long way with lag and consistency, but they are not there yet. The S engines of the past were jewels in this regard - the power is extremely usable, not a ton of torque to make the car an effort to control, and high revving to take advantage of gearing. This is what a racing engine should be, and what people have come to expect. On the other hand, we now have to "pay the price" for people loving the "feeling" of midrange torque - which people love in the new turbo cars from BMW. That "push you back in the seat" is what impresses people, even though a car with less torque (having less push) can be faster. It's not about being fast on a race track or in the mountains anymore - it's what car is faster to the next stop light. It's a damn shame, because it seems like BMW is listening to this. The chassis and suspension sure have a LOT to do with it - no doubt, but would you swap out an S54 powered E46 M3, and replace it with a higher "peak" output N55 just because of the torque? If the N54/55 was THAT good, people would be swapping in the N55 on the older gen M3s - but it's not. It's not even comparable to the S54 for race use, it's just not.

    You can't just throw a pair of coils on a 335 and compare it to an M3, there are still so many other suspension/chassis/driveline components that are at play to give the M it's edge. You would have to pay A LOT of money to make it competitive on the chassis side to make the two cars comparable on a track. Yes, you can add a ton of power easily to the 335i, and make it competitive - but it's still not an M3. The OP was referring to an N54/55 powered 1 or 3 series, not the 1M which would be well out of the price range he was looking for. He was looking for the highest output motor with mods for the price - neglecting the cooling problems, HPFP issues, and other lacking modifications needed for track use (which he said the car was for). I don't understand how this can be argued - the first choice should be dismissed immediately, unless he truly is showing bias towards the N54/55. It would cost way too much to get to the level of even a last gen M3 for track use.

    Cheers.

  2. #277
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    A 1M basically has all the suspension and braking bits from the M3, with an N55 engine.
    Yes but you mean N54.

  3. #278
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The 1M was made because people were buying a badge and not a real M car. It's not a real M car, never will be.
    What makes the 1M any less of an M car then the M3, M5 or M6? If anything, it was one of the most "M". It was a no frills, weekend race car: it only came with an MT, had an LSD and a few comfort options (it also has the M button on the steering wheel, so that steals the deal IMO Click here to enlarge).

    Here is the order guide for the 1M (~1/2 page):
    Attachment 24051

    And the E9x M3 (4 pages):
    Attachment 24052
    Attachment 24053
    Attachment 24054
    Attachment 24055
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  4. #279
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    What makes the 1M any less of an M car then the M3, M5 or M6?
    The motor.

  5. #280
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    N54 wins, but the m50 based cars give them all a very good run for the money.

    Hi 5
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  6. #281
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The motor.
    The only issue w the n54 motor is heating and cooling... otherwise its a gem. The S65 has what over it really?? Reliabilty... yeah. sound... yeah but that is it.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes but you mean N54.
    Yeah, I get them mixed up sometimes... I really think BMW should still offer their cars without forced induction. It's such a shame to be going this route. I don't mind the M5 having forced induction (egh, yes I do because the S85 is now gone) - but the M3? It just sucks.

    People don't get it - they really need to drive the damn car. The S engines have always been technological marvels - now an S engine is basically a higher boosted version of a regular road-going BMW. How one cannot feel bad when purchasing an M5 or future M3 about this is beyond me, unless they haven't driven a proper M...

    It's too hard to put into words, and to be honest, I didn't understand until I drove my first M3 and bought it that same day. Traded in a G35S (which I thought was awesome at the time compared to other cars of similar power) - and got an E46 M3. Similar "peak" power outputs, they must be similar, right? LOL - I feel like an idiot just for thinking like that 4-5 years ago. The throttle response would be worth the trade alone, now add a great suspension, brakes, transmission, steering feel, much more rigid body/stiffer chassis, more area under the curve, gearing, fuel efficiency, etc. - the cars are so different I feel they shouldn't be in the same sentence. BUT, they DO have similar peak HP, so they should be compared, right?? Click here to enlarge

    However, I have driven many 335s - and I feel the G35/7 would be comparable... The 3 series IS still better in ALL respects; would the 335 have wowed me into trading my car the same day? Hell no - and I think anyone who has put some time in each of these cars would more than agree with all of this.

  8. #283
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Maybe this is true, to be honest - I have never driven a 1M, but would love to. What I am referring to is the difference between a 335is and an M3. I am talking about M cars. A 1M basically has all the suspension and braking bits from the M3, with an N55 engine. It's lighter, more nimble - etc. than the M3. I would be willing to bet that given the two cars - one stock M3 and one non-stock 1M - both having very similar power outputs, the 1M WOULD be faster on a track.

    You are right, it's NOT just the engine, it's the whole package. However, the thing that was special about the M series has been it's engine - this has been true since they have been around. The goal is to have a VERY CONSISTENT engine, meaning a very flat torque curve. You don't want to be mid-corner, providing a correction to counter some oversteer and have 1 more PSI of boost than you expected at some throttle opening. You want to have the exact amount of torque as you did the last time. Yes, the turbos have came a long way with lag and consistency, but they are not there yet. The S engines of the past were jewels in this regard - the power is extremely usable, not a ton of torque to make the car an effort to control, and high revving to take advantage of gearing. This is what a racing engine should be, and what people have come to expect. On the other hand, we now have to "pay the price" for people loving the "feeling" of midrange torque - which people love in the new turbo cars from BMW. That "push you back in the seat" is what impresses people, even though a car with less torque (having less push) can be faster. It's not about being fast on a race track or in the mountains anymore - it's what car is faster to the next stop light. It's a damn shame, because it seems like BMW is listening to this. The chassis and suspension sure have a LOT to do with it - no doubt, but would you swap out an S54 powered E46 M3, and replace it with a higher "peak" output N55 just because of the torque? If the N54/55 was THAT good, people would be swapping in the N55 on the older gen M3s - but it's not. It's not even comparable to the S54 for race use, it's just not.

    You can't just throw a pair of coils on a 335 and compare it to an M3, there are still so many other suspension/chassis/driveline components that are at play to give the M it's edge. You would have to pay A LOT of money to make it competitive on the chassis side to make the two cars comparable on a track. Yes, you can add a ton of power easily to the 335i, and make it competitive - but it's still not an M3. The OP was referring to an N54/55 powered 1 or 3 series, not the 1M which would be well out of the price range he was looking for. He was looking for the highest output motor with mods for the price - neglecting the cooling problems, HPFP issues, and other lacking modifications needed for track use (which he said the car was for). I don't understand how this can be argued - the first choice should be dismissed immediately, unless he truly is showing bias towards the N54/55. It would cost way too much to get to the level of even a last gen M3 for track use.

    Cheers.
    Well, you could throw on front m3 suspension bits *~$600-$800* along with the Defiv lock down kit *$700*, shocks/springs or coils *$800 - $2k* and have ~90% of the handling advantage of the m3. An lsd would be helpful too, but that's another added cost ~$2k. This is the exact route I will go, except for a couple different front end pieces *I will use megan trailing arms*.

  9. #284
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    Well, you could throw on front m3 suspension bits *~$600-$800* along with the Defiv lock down kit *$700*, shocks/springs or coils *$800 - $2k* and have ~90% of the handling advantage of the m3. An lsd would be helpful too, but that's another added cost ~$2k. This is the exact route I will go, except for a couple different front end pieces *I will use megan trailing arms*.
    Maybe - not sure to be honest. I would love to drive a properly tuned 335i with everything you described above. I would imagine you might need to add some more to be at 90%, but who knows.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    The only issue w the n54 motor is heating and cooling... otherwise its a gem. The S65 has what over it really?? Reliabilty... yeah. sound... yeah but that is it.
    this question is so stupid... it just shows you never drove one and if you did you probably have no connection to the car you drive if you dont get it. Every person in forums around the world, that changed from a NA motor to the N54 confirm it is laggy. And tuning it gets the thing only much worse... there are a lot of people coming from an 130i in the 135i fraction.
    And every single one will confirm that. When moving to the 135i they got a lot of power and maybe a lot of other pros, but that thing is laggy. Just like the new M5. My old 130i was more m-worth than the N54. Its about driveability.

  11. #286
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    The only issue w the n54 motor is heating and cooling... otherwise its a gem. The S65 has what over it really?? Reliabilty... yeah. sound... yeah but that is it.
    The issue is it isn't an M motor and doesn't belong in an M car.

    The S65 has everything over it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    People don't get it - they really need to drive the damn car. The S engines have always been technological marvels - now an S engine is basically a higher boosted version of a regular road-going BMW. How one cannot feel bad when purchasing an M5 or future M3 about this is beyond me, unless they haven't driven a proper M...
    EXACTLY

    They just don't get it. They won't get it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cisi Click here to enlarge
    this question is so stupid... it just shows you never drove one and if you did you probably have no connection to the car you drive if you dont get it. Every person in forums around the world, that changed from a NA motor to the N54 confirm it is laggy. And tuning it gets the thing only much worse... there are a lot of people coming from an 130i in the 135i fraction.
    And every single one will confirm that. When moving to the 135i they got a lot of power and maybe a lot of other pros, but that thing is laggy. Just like the new M5. My old 130i was more m-worth than the N54. Its about driveability.
    BMW themselves admits the response isn't there: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...-their-own-car

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cisi Click here to enlarge
    this question is so stupid... it just shows you never drove one and if you did you probably have no connection to the car you drive if you dont get it. Every person in forums around the world, that changed from a NA motor to the N54 confirm it is laggy. And tuning it gets the thing only much worse... there are a lot of people coming from an 130i in the 135i fraction.
    And every single one will confirm that. When moving to the 135i they got a lot of power and maybe a lot of other pros, but that thing is laggy. Just like the new M5. My old 130i was more m-worth than the N54. Its about driveability.
    have driven one and simply wasnt impressed when coming from a tuned N54 and that broke the camels back

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The issue is it isn't an M motor and doesn't belong in an M car.

    The S65 has everything over it.
    First one isn't for you to decide and the second response has no content.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    First one isn't for you to decide and the second response has no content.
    BMW decided it themselves when they applied the designation. In their own literature they refer to S designated motors as for M cars. Well, that isn't an M motor, so it's an incomplete M car.

    I've already provided a myriad of reasons demonstrating S65 superiority. It is the better motor, it has the better potential, it has the better everything. Period.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I've already provided a myriad of reasons demonstrating S65 superiority. It is the better motor, it has the better potential, it has the better everything. Period.
    That's a really bold claim. YES, it's a lot easier to get high HP out of a motor that was originally designed for FI (the N54), but the S65 is no where as mod-friendly as the N54. If this forums gonna found itself on transparency & data/factual claims, I think it's pretty clear at this time that the N54 has the most potential for aftermarket gains.

    Even when you get your car back & it dynos a 400 WHP+ gain over stock, look at all the work that's gone into the motor --- lowered compression, sleeved block, new cranks/pistons, etc etc. Meanwhile the N54 has been doubling it's WHP with mild turbo swaps & not a single internal has been modified.
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  17. #292
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    Sticky, we'll decide who is right when the F30 M3 comes out and u see 100s of s65 m3s in ebay all of a sudden. This is the nature of advancement... I could argue that a V8, dct or 3700 lbs doesnt belong in an m3 but I can see it would be futile. This is just as funny as all of the 328i $#@!s with their NA motors who claimed they had plenty of power and were very satisfied with their torque curves until the N20 hit and the same $#@!s ask about tunes as the first question on Shivpost. Kind day to you sir...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  18. #293
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    That's a really bold claim.
    How's it bold when you start with a motor with a better curve, better heads, better displacement, and higher redline? You take the same turbos and put them on either and what will the result be? The S65 always wins.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    but the S65 is no where as mod-friendly as the N54.
    You mean it isn't as cheap to mod. I fully agree the N54 is great for people with smaller budgets.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Even when you get your car back & it dynos a 400 WHP+ gain over stock, look at all the work that's gone into the motor --- lowered compression, sleeved block, new cranks/pistons, etc etc. Meanwhile the N54 has been doubling it's WHP with mild turbo swaps & not a single internal has been modified.
    That's because one is forced induction from the factory and the other isn't. An LS3 isn't boosted either to start and needs everything you mentioned but once built how does it look?

  19. #294
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    Sticky, we'll decide who is right when the F30 M3 comes out and u see 100s of s65 m3s in ebay all of a sudden. This is the nature of advancement... I could argue that a V8, dct or 3700 lbs doesnt belong in an m3 but I can see it would be futile. This is just as funny as all of the 328i $#@!s with their NA motors who claimed they had plenty of power and were very satisfied with their torque curves until the N20 hit and the same $#@!s ask about tunes as the first question on Shivpost. Kind day to you sir...
    Why would it be surprised for a newer car to be more desirable than an older car? When has an older car gone up in value and up in sales when the next gen came out?

    The M3 isn't 3700 pounds, I don't know what numbers are quoting but quote the correct ones.

    I'm all for the N20 over the N52.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    have driven one and simply wasnt impressed when coming from a tuned N54 and that broke the camels back
    .
    than the second statement applys to you, you simply dont get it. You lack this skill. Thats fine for you as you can drive every $#@!ty motor out there and as long as it has enough power you want notice anything else.
    But not everybody lacks to feel if a motor responds in time or not.
    I would prefer to dont get it too, as ignorance in this case would be a bless.

    But even if you dont get it while driving, the fact remains. There are numerous tests and graphs out there as proof to the lag of the N54. I would have to search a bit but i thing the time the N54 needs bring its power from when you hit the pedal in low rpms is almost 3 seconds. (stock!!)
    While my old 130i took 0,36 sec to achieve full power. (The M3 should be even better). Thats what even minimal skilled drives get instantly when comparing the two cars (by driving). They are worlds apart in terms of driveability.... if you get it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The motor.
    In your world M = motor as motor is spelled with an m, now i get it.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    Well, you could throw on front m3 suspension bits *~$600-$800* along with the Defiv lock down kit *$700*, shocks/springs or coils *$800 - $2k* and have ~90% of the handling advantage of the m3. An lsd would be helpful too, but that's another added cost ~$2k. This is the exact route I will go, except for a couple different front end pieces *I will use megan trailing arms*.
    Don't need to do that. BMW has already DONE that. Its called the 1M. They didn't do it for no reason. They need a real bad ass new age road course racer ready to take BMW into the new millenium Click here to enlarge

    The new F82 M3 will majorly build on that concept but 1M and its N54 is where it all started. Is N54 a better engine than any other engine or in this case an S65? That's such a retarded topic to discuss. Engines are built to serve a certain purpose. Sticky is just a bit delusional, sentimental and nostalgic on the S65 really, that's the only problem and miscommunication cause here. He also believes its the motor that defines a great road course setup and defines M at what they are. Last time I checked it was the complete package but he fails to understand those basics and there really is no helping that.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    In your world M = motor as motor is spelled with an m, now i get it.
    No, in my world S = M motor. It's the heart of the car. You don't really understand what M Powerplants have meant.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why would it be surprised for a newer car to be more desirable than an older car? When has an older car gone up in value and up in sales when the next gen came out?

    The M3 isn't 3700 pounds, I don't know what numbers are quoting but quote the correct ones.

    I'm all for the N20 over the N52.
    lol... u just reverses the convo... if the s65 is as great as u make it out to be and people truly dont want a turbo motor in an m car, then people will hold on to their s65's right??? wrong and i am willing to bet on it
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cisi Click here to enlarge
    than the second statement applys to you, you simply dont get it. You lack this skill. Thats fine for you as you can drive every $#@!ty motor out there and as long as it has enough power you want notice anything else.
    But not everybody lacks to feel if a motor responds in time or not.
    I would prefer to dont get it too, as ignorance in this case would be a bless.

    But even if you dont get it while driving, the fact remains. There are numerous tests and graphs out there as proof to the lag of the N54. I would have to search a bit but i thing the time the N54 needs bring its power from when you hit the pedal in low rpms is almost 3 seconds. (stock!!)
    While my old 130i took 0,36 sec to achieve full power. (The M3 should be even better). Thats what even minimal skilled drives get instantly when comparing the two cars (by driving). They are worlds apart in terms of driveability.... if you get it.

    sure sure sir... i am ready to run against anyone in my f30 m3 when it comes out... bring the s65
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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