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  1. #801
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    that and reliability. Which is why they went back to the 4.0L S62, which was much more robust and more reliable, made more torque across more RPM and still revved out to the regulated 7000rpm...and stuffed that in all their M3s. Turner has some of the fastest M3s out there..and they run them with S62s, not S65s.
    Wrong series.

    You are talking about Rolex.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Wrong series.

    You are talking about Rolex.

    Turner runs in Grand Am do they not? I see them duking it out with Magnus Motorsports all the time, and they run in GS class.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    Turner runs in Grand Am do they not? I see them duking it out with Magnus Motorsports all the time, and they run in GS class.
    Grand Am runs the Rolex Series and Continental Tire Series.

    To different series.

    Turners car in Rolex isn't even a M3, it is a tube chassis with a M3 carbon body, with the S62 (like you said).

    Turners cars in Continental Tire are basically showroom prepped cars with the S65. Stock manifolds, stock air boxes, etc.

  4. #804
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    They limited revs because they where winning too many races.

    Never said any motor was superior than another. The word "superior" was thrown around earlier in the thread.

    Simply saying the S65 is not down on power like many are protraying.
    They limited revs to equal out the cars nothing more, nothing less. They restricted the 5.0 to make it fair. They gave the RX8 a 20B, they gave the Camaro a narrower tire. All in the name of equaling performance amongst a group of cars that in production trim dont compete with each other in all cases. Again race cars are not street cars.

    And yes that motor is down on power its not that strong and lacks tq...
    We stay swingin...
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  5. #805
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    This still is not solved with a dual oil cooler - there are still guys $#@!ing about this.
    Yes, there will always be guys out there with issues. I am telling you the issue is resolved in 20-30 min road course sessions. What sort of racing are you talking about and do you have a way for me to see who those people are exactly? I'd like to talk to them.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    They limited revs to equal out the cars nothing more, nothing less. They restricted the 5.0 to make it fair. They gave the RX8 a 20B, they gave the Camaro a narrower tire. All in the name of equaling performance amongst a group of cars that in production trim dont compete with each other in all cases. Again race cars are not street cars.

    And yes that motor is down on power its not that strong and lacks tq...
    Exactly it is called a competition adjustment. Funny the M3 got a smaller air restrictor the same time last year as the Boss 302R.

    The only Mazda is in ST class, a Speed3. There is no Mazda RX8 in the Continental Tire GS class.

    M3 still wins races with the lack of tq.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Exactly it is called a competition adjustment. Funny the M3 got a smaller air restrictor the same time last year as the Boss 302R.

    The only Mazda is in ST class, a Speed3. There is no Mazda RX8 in the Continental Tire GS class.

    M3 still wins races with the lack of tq.
    You're sounding fanboy right now... I'll leave it in the simplest way possible for you. Cars in the series and ones like it are equalized for performance. Whether its weight, power, tire size or motors they do a variety of things to get these cars evenly matched.

    However in the real world on the street where the vast majority spend their time the M3 is not the best performer regardless of price. Its not a bad car just not an awesome car... Add in boost and they get balls, they clearly overcome their shortcomings power & tq wise as well as power under the curve.

    I'll leave you to race vs street comparisons
    We stay swingin...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    <final thoughts>

    I am hoping this finally does it - and I hope you actually read this entire post <@dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks>... I hope that this shows that the N54 is inferior. Your recent quotes about gearing, and previous posts prior make me think this is where you don't get it.

    Say BMW took your 300 ft-lb engine, and decided to do what's right, in other words - make it the next S54 with a turbo. The engineers at BMW would theoretically spin that motor to 8500 RPM, and it would make everyone happy. Both 1 single RPM and 1 single ft-lb of torque ARE EQUAL in CONTRIBUTION to power. HP = (TQ x RPM)/5252 - so, if you took your N54, and made a bad ass head/valve-train/etc. - and spun it out to 8500 RPM, you would be making over 485 horsepower to the wheels (considering it had a nice flat torque curve all the way to redline). NOW you can also take advantage of gearing.

    As an imaginary (making up a gear-set that arrives at the same speed as your current car in 1st), but mathematically correct (hopefully <g>) example:

    Instead of in your N54, where your first gear is giving (making up numbers here) 1000 torques to the ground through it's current redline. Since we raised your redline (and changed your gearing), we could shorten that gear to a point where it would still get to the same speed you used to get with your old gear. BUT NOW in 1st gear, you are making ([8500RPM-7500RPM]/7500RPM) 21% more torque! AGAIN, you still arrive at the same speed as you used to before hitting second gear. ALSO, you will NOW be making 1214 torques to the ground in your M3 first gear... This is the effect of raising a redline, it has a dramatic effect on both the amount of torque to the ground (through gearing) AND in turn increases your peak and most importantly the car's average horsepower under the entire power curve. Yes, you could throw on the same gear set to your current N54, but you can see how the above example could never apply since your rev limit would still be 7500RPM (I am even giving revs to you for free here)... Click here to enlarge

    I hope you can now understand WHY the S65 and S54 are indeed engineering masterpieces. The N54 is not a garbage engine by any means - and yes, it's hard to make a great high revving turbo engine - BUT THIS IS WHY the current NA engines are so awesome. And yes, since these engines are made by M GmBh - they are made extremely well. They have very free flowing components, excellent engine management, excellent thermal management, excellent components to withstand the high RPM, and are engineered by the best of the best in racing/engine development... It's BECAUSE of things like this - it HAS to make this power without forced induction SOMEHOW... They do this with high RPMs and a great amount of torque considering the size of the engine and NA. It will respond THAT MUCH better if you CHOOSE to boost it. 1 PSI in a S54 or an S65 (or any high revving S motor) will exceed the power you will get in the N54 for the same 1 PSI for these reasons.

    I would LOVE an N54 that could do ALL of the above - in the M3 chassis and have decent throttle response, or even S54/S65 levels of throttle response. It's just not there yet, tuned or otherwise - and that's my point that I hope you agree to.

    I just don't understand how you can actually be serious in saying some of the things you have said. I don't know if you are kidding around or what, but I sincerely hope you can understand what I am saying here.

    Cheers.
    Are you seriously trying to explain torque multiplication through gearing to me. Ok, here is a thread for you on gearing where I've gone in depth on it for my own N54. This explanation post wasn't necessary and its besides the point of this thread or the current conversation "situation" we have Click here to enlarge

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-2-56-thoughts

    Let's stop trying to educate me on what torque multiplication does guys, please
    Click here to enlarge

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    So to put an end to the S62 vs S65 debate. I'm pretty sure I figured out the reason Turner is using the S62 vs S65. I'm pretty sure their Riley built M3 is a 5 speed car vs 6 so the low end revs of the S62 proves a better engine for that circumstance. I pm'd a turner advisor and he should get back to me promptly. In the meantime I am going on a hunt because earlier in the year the "other" teams were complaining they were not capable of keeping up with the M3.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
    OP - this is the best thread starting post I've ever seen in my time on the internets. Helps that I'm looking for a new daily, and these are the 3 cars I'm considering ;-)
    Thanks Mike, glad it helps. I think I am 95% certain where I am going, starting the process of locating the car now and have 100% buy in from the wife.

    Fun times ahead, next research will be on importing a car from the US.
    2015 F82 M4 - DCT - YMB
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    Thanks Mike, glad it helps. I think I am 95% certain where I am going, starting the process of locating the car now and have 100% buy in from the wife.

    Fun times ahead, next research will be on importing a car from the US.
    Good deal! My end game is a supercharged, DCT E90 M3. I've put a TON of miles on our DCT VF620 E92 and it's just the most badass street car I can think of. With a tire change it can run 10sec 1/4 mile or whoop up on cars 3x its price at the road course. I have to drop cash for an engagement ring, wedding and home improvements this year...so I really can't justify another 40k spend on a daily driver this year Click here to enlarge

    It's in my best interest to find a car I can buy and resell in 1-2 years and not lose much if any $$$ - so the E36M and E46M3 really make sense. I love the 335i, but it will continue to drop IMO. Good for the consumer who wants a badass car for cheap, not good for someone like me looking to sell soon.

    If I was smart I'd buy the nicest E36M3 in the best color combo that I can find and drive that for a year or so....5psi makes that one super fun to drive car on the street and track.

  12. #812
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
    Good deal! My end game is a supercharged, DCT E90 M3. I've put a TON of miles on our DCT VF620 E92 and it's just the most badass street car I can think of. With a tire change it can run 10sec 1/4 mile or whoop up on cars 3x its price at the road course. I have to drop cash for an engagement ring, wedding and home improvements this year...so I really can't justify another 40k spend on a daily driver this year Click here to enlarge

    It's in my best interest to find a car I can buy and resell in 1-2 years and not lose much if any $$$ - so the E36M and E46M3 really make sense. I love the 335i, but it will continue to drop IMO. Good for the consumer who wants a badass car for cheap, not good for someone like me looking to sell soon.

    If I was smart I'd buy the nicest E36M3 in the best color combo that I can find and drive that for a year or so....5psi makes that one super fun to drive car on the street and track.

    I agree with your logic here, the 335 drops in value too quickly. If your going for a e90 m3 and supercharging it, just get a clean e36 m or e46 m, keep it stock and get the e90 later. I just went through all the marriage stuff, fun times!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    Thanks Mike, glad it helps. I think I am 95% certain where I am going, starting the process of locating the car now and have 100% buy in from the wife.

    Fun times ahead, next research will be on importing a car from the US.
    What did you end up with? I'm betting a e46 m3 ;-)
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I agree with your logic here, the 335 drops in value too quickly. If your going for a e90 m3 and supercharging it, just get a clean e36 m or e46 m, keep it stock and get the e90 later. I just went through all the marriage stuff, fun times!
    Yea man - I love the marriage idea. I'm even cool spending some stacks on a nice ring. The price of the wedding is what drives me mad.....but this is life.

    In <2 years E9X M3s will be in the low 30s I bet. That will probably be the bottom....but who knows. Add blower, exhaust and possibly suspension of some sort - done.

    I will add, I think the E9X M3 really NEEDS a blower to be absolutely amazing. I'm sorta with LM - stock the power is good, not amazing. With another 150-200hp OMG. The DCT just puts that power down like a boss.

    I drive all of our shop cars often, so I have a good basis for comparison. In fact, since I sold my daily I'm driving them actively every day Click here to enlarge VF620 DCT E92 M3, Stock DCT E90 M3, FBO 135i. The 135i is an absolute blast to drive, I love that there is so much TQ everywhere. The car NEEDS a diff, M3 bits and good dampers to start getting close to the M3 in the handling dept, that stuff gets expensive quickly. We all know it can make nice power with the stock units. Add upgraded stockers and you are putting down killer power.

    If you want to talk suspension, LMK!

  15. #815
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge

    If you want to talk suspension, LMK!
    I agree, I bought my wife a nice ring too, happy wife, happy life lol. I am going to call you to discuss suspension. Your plan is close to mine, I'm hanging on to the 335 for 3 more years, having fun with it and then seeing what the new m looks like. If it's not that great I'll prob get a e90/e92 m3 and supercharge it. I could never keep it NA, not after owning a fbo 335 all these years.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    Thanks Mike, glad it helps. I think I am 95% certain where I am going, starting the process of locating the car now and have 100% buy in from the wife.

    Fun times ahead, next research will be on importing a car from the US.
    So whats the final choice bro?
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
    Good deal! My end game is a supercharged, DCT E90 M3. I've put a TON of miles on our DCT VF620 E92 and it's just the most badass street car I can think of. With a tire change it can run 10sec 1/4 mile or whoop up on cars 3x its price at the road course. I have to drop cash for an engagement ring, wedding and home improvements this year...so I really can't justify another 40k spend on a daily driver this year Click here to enlarge

    It's in my best interest to find a car I can buy and resell in 1-2 years and not lose much if any $$$ - so the E36M and E46M3 really make sense. I love the 335i, but it will continue to drop IMO. Good for the consumer who wants a badass car for cheap, not good for someone like me looking to sell soon.

    If I was smart I'd buy the nicest E36M3 in the best color combo that I can find and drive that for a year or so....5psi makes that one super fun to drive car on the street and track.
    Been there done that with the ring, wedding and all. Happy Wife is a happy life for sure... If I recommend one thing its to honeymoon in Tahiti. www.tahitilegends.com we used this company and they were awesome. 2weeks there on 3 islands with airfare was cheaper than Hawaii by thousands back in 2006. We couldnt resist best place we've ever been. Congrats and good luck bro
    We stay swingin...
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    My wifes ring will take your 60-130.
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    Dammit I remember when the my ring designer said the total ring should the rough equivlant of 3 months salary. I nearly fainted... My wife promised me a Porsche as thats what I gave up to ice her finger. Dammit she still owes me LOL
    We stay swingin...
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I found the read of the sport auto article very fascinating. Also because my own car is to some extent similar to the Alpina B3 GT3 and because I was there on a track day last year when the Alpina test drivers did the suspension setup testing for the Nordschleife.

    The B3 GT3 is a great car, and congrats to BMW for providing us with a basis that one can get so much out of. Similar times on both the famous Hockenheimring and Nordschleife to the M3 GTS at around 50.000 EUR less cost, that's really fantastic.

    I'm saying similar times on both circuits because the time difference between both cars is really negligible. Even more so on the Nordschleife which is so long that a few seconds here don't matter - with a different driver, other weather conditions or another set of tires the result could again be slightly different. It's not like the sport auto times - although they are done with setups that aim to be as comparable as possible - are some sort of scale that is accurate to 1/1000 of a second. They're just a good indication what a car is capable of.

    Just for the record (because I keep reading that some claim the Alpina to be a "race car" with a "rebuilt engine" or some such), the B3 GT3 has the same engine as other B3 Biturbo cars, which is again an ordinary N54 with low compression pistons (that are mostly in there to account for difference in fuel quality and actually lead to a more inefficient engine when compared to the original pistons); nothing else has been modified in the engine. Otherwise the main differences to a stock 335i are KW3 coilovers, a StopTech BBK, a Drexler LSD and a flash tune; and the shifting times of the AT are faster as ZF provides Alpina with an improved gearbox software.

    It's not really surprising that the Alpina B3 GT3 performs so well on the Nordschleife. Those of you who have already driven there will undoubtedly agree that it is a circuit where torque is far more valuable than peak power. And the N54 disposes of far more torque than the M3 engine, even if the latter can make up for this to some extent with the double clutch transmission. That gives the Alpina excellent possibilities in the various sections of the 'Ring that go uphill (and there are lots of those). That would also be my explanation why the Alpina, although nominally having an engine with less peak power, is just as fast on this track.

    I have seen (and driven) quite a lot of 335i and Alpina B3 on the 'Ring, some of which were tuned far more aggressively than the B3 GT3 and had comparable suspension modifications. There is no doubt that one of these cars - in the hand of the right driver - would improve the lap time further, thereby widening the gap with the M3 even more.

    Great work, both Alpina for improving the 335i and BMW for providing such a formidable engine as the N54. It will be very interesting to see how the new M3 will turn out, considering it will have a setup that will apparently be more similar to the Alpina than to the current M3 as far as the engine is concerned.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
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    Gone: BMW 335i Individual (Íhlins, PFC brakes, RB turbos etc.)

    Gone: Alpina B3 E46 3,3

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    So I learned something new. Turner uses S62 because Grand Am only allows the S62.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    If you knew what the Continental Tire series was. You would understand why I am using it as a comparison.
    \
    its a race series, i got it. its not publicly owned cars. the ones that private citizens buy and drive on the road.. so you right, i dont see why you keep bringing it up
    The series is sold as straight from the showroom racing. There are forum members that have modded their cars more than what is allowed in the Continental Tire Series.

    right, and they dont make enough power, they have a chassis thats great for what it does. does not hide the fact a stronger motor would, be a stronger motor.. and be a faster car..

    They are street legal except for the fact they delete the cats. They even have to run stock air boxes.

    awesome, so again, they clearly wish the motor would have more power.. got it..

    The S65 wins races against the cars with engines you think are superior.

    i supposed suspension, weight, driver, and transmission have zero to do with it.. imagine a wolrd where the s65 made decent power.. oh man..

    You think BMW gives a sh*t if some douche loses a roll race at car meet.


    apparantly they dont care about winning anything, they just want to stay close.. oh, excpet for 8 cars world-wide.. because those 8 cars are the target people/teams that suppoert the entire M3 endeveor.. i guess bmw doesnt care
    k

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    They limited revs to equal out the cars nothing more, nothing less. They restricted the 5.0 to make it fair. They gave the RX8 a 20B, they gave the Camaro a narrower tire. All in the name of equaling performance amongst a group of cars that in production trim dont compete with each other in all cases. Again race cars are not street cars.

    And yes that motor is down on power its not that strong and lacks tq...
    oh snap! you mean that motor that makes more power was limited as well? hey, doesnt it cost less to? i guess the argument that the s65 is superior because it had to rev less, meaning its beating those other motors, is debunked as those stronger motors were reduced as well.. damn.. truth $#@!ing hurts doesnt..

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    Was just thinking to myself, I wonder how much faster/slower the M3 would be with the 5.0 or the 6.2 from the 'Stang/'Maro ? /runsandhides

    *Just looked and it seems like the LS3 is ~450lbs, and so is the S65, with the Coyote 5.0 coming in around 430lbs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by amclint Click here to enlarge
    Was just thinking to myself, I wonder how much faster/slower the M3 would be with the 5.0 or the 6.2 from the 'Stang/'Maro ? /runsandhides

    *Just looked and it seems like the LS3 is ~450lbs, and so is the S65, with the Coyote 5.0 coming in around 430lbs.

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If the M3 needed more power it would have came with it!!! - (says the owner of a built motor boosted S65.. an owner of an N/A bolt on S65, and a kid that doesnt own an S65.. odd isnt it..)

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