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  1. #326
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Uh RPM leads to torque multiplication. What's retarded is you not getting it.



    What was written too fast? Seems you read too fast and didn't realize the comment was flat torque not low torque.



    I don't know when 600+ cc's and another 600 sitting there isn't better.



    BMW has lost their way. I should be the one deciding because I adhere to their own brand philosophy more than they do now. It's German Toyota, they don't care any longer.
    please at least tell me that the LFA is one of the greatest cars ever built... i'll at least give u a few credibilty points
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  2. #327
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    That's laughable at best. What rpm are you talking? You do realize a 6MT N54 in a non-1M has 3.08 gearing too right vs. 3.73 on the M3. Swap the gears and try that response again.

    Just do yourself a favour and find a tuned bolton 1M, with twin oil coolers, and drive it on a road course and then hop over to your NA S65 and do the same.
    I am not sure I understand this, but if you swapped gears - it would be a terrible thing. You don't have the extra 1500 RPM to take advantage of the shorter rear end. You could do this, yes - but your 1st gear would probably be worthless - and you would be shifting so often it would probably outweigh the advantages elsewhere.

  3. #328
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Uh RPM leads to torque multiplication. What's retarded is you not getting it.
    Now you're talking torque multiplication. Earlier you were talking hp multiplication. Now I'm getting doubts you actually know exactly what you're talking about or trying to argue Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What was written too fast? Seems you read too fast and didn't realize the comment was flat torque not low torque.
    Its not even LOW, its NO torque (period)

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't know when 600+ cc's and another 600 sitting there isn't better.
    When you can't enter a race because the rules forbid you from competing with so much displacement.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    BMW has lost their way. I should be the one deciding because I adhere to their own brand philosophy more than they do now. It's German Toyota, they don't care any longer.
    Get your own race car brand out there already then.

  4. #329
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    please at least tell me that the LFA is one of the greatest cars ever built... i'll at least give u a few credibilty points
    Click here to enlarge

  5. #330
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    please at least tell me that the LFA is one of the greatest cars ever built... i'll at least give u a few credibilty points
    I wish I could but I can't. For $350k I just can't respect a car that gets trounced by basically everything. A supercar needs to be a supercar.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  6. #331
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I am not sure I understand this, but if you swapped gears - it would be a terrible thing. You don't have the extra 1500 RPM to take advantage of the shorter rear end. You could do this, yes - but your 1st gear would probably be worthless - and you would be shifting so often it would probably outweigh the advantages elsewhere.
    He would increase torque but for a shorter duration he doesn't get the MPH aspect.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  7. #332
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Now you're talking torque multiplication. Earlier you were talking hp multiplication. Now I'm getting doubts you actually know exactly what you're talking about or trying to argue
    Uh no you just are confusing the subjects discussed in the topic. Torque multiplication happens with gearing HP multiplication happens with revs. I'm having doubts regarding your reading comprehension.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Its not even LOW, its NO torque (period)
    Funny how it makes more than the N54... with its turbos. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    When you can't enter a race because the rules forbid you from competing with so much displacement.
    So then what would you do? Increase revs? Yep, that's what the S65 was built for.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Get your own race car brand out there already then.
    Why when I could manage BMW's?

    You aren't doing a very good job here...
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  8. #333
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I wish I could but I can't. For $350k I just can't respect a car that gets trounced by basically everything. A supercar needs to be a supercar.
    it's kind of funny you say that... this is a vehicle that defines the points u have been making. A high revving v10 built by Yamaha that sounds glorious, a chassis pieced together in a lab and so forth so forth... yet the GTR does what it does.

    Does it sound familiar? it should...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  9. #334
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I am not sure I understand this, but if you swapped gears - it would be a terrible thing. You don't have the extra 1500 RPM to take advantage of the shorter rear end. You could do this, yes - but your 1st gear would probably be worthless - and you would be shifting so often it would probably outweigh the advantages elsewhere.
    The car would need to be tuned accordingly for shorter gearing. Not all tunes need or should run all that low end torque. Those are typical street tunes that give you low end kick in the butt. With shorter gearing it'd be a different story on the tuning but with more appropriate turbos or turbo on the N54 shorter gears (outside of the 1/4 mile situation) could work out very well.

  10. #335
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    it's kind of funny you say that... this is a vehicle that defines the points u have been making. A high revving v10 built by Yamaha that sounds glorious, a chassis pieced together in a lab and so forth so forth... yet the GTR does what it does.

    Does it sound familiar? it should...
    I know, I know. But it's the price point that kills it.

    I respect the engineering, the motor, but don't you expect a bit more for $350k? Like at the very least not being beat by a Z06?

    I mean it's a supercar isn't it? Aren't those somewhat defined by performance?
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  11. #336
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    The car would need to be tuned accordingly for shorter gearing. Not all tunes need or should run all that low end torque.
    You're not getting it. The problem wouldn't be the torque it would be the revs. There is no tuning you can do to fix the need to upshift far sooner and once you do you will be at lower torque than the car still in first.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  12. #337
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I know, I know. But it's the price point that kills it.

    I respect the engineering, the motor, but don't you expect a bit more for $350k? Like at the very least not being beat by a Z06?

    I mean it's a supercar isn't it? Aren't those somewhat defined by performance?
    sure but point remains...

    a GTR does what it does and it can take a dump on a $300k car if it wishes... add $1000 worth of mods and it gets really bad. the point remains, this is the definition of a turbo motor
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  13. #338
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    sure but point remains...

    a GTR does what it does and it can take a dump on a $300k car if it wishes... add $1000 worth of mods and it gets really bad. the point remains, this is the definition of a turbo motor
    Yes turbo motors gain power but the LF-A engine is the more impressively engineered piece. It's a similar discussion.

    The Carrera GT V10 is more impressive than the LF-A's and the entire vehicle is more impressive as well IMO.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  14. #339
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Uh no you just are confusing the subjects discussed in the topic. Torque multiplication happens with gearing HP multiplication happens with revs. I'm having doubts regarding your reading comprehension.
    I know VERY well what the two mean. I've discussed them before and had threads not too long ago on this forum.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Funny how it makes more than the N54... with its turbos. Click here to enlarge
    With a proper tune (not one made for a family sedan) and boltons on each motor I will just laugh at the S65 to N54 torque comparo. Are you serious? lol

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So then what would you do? Increase revs? Yep, that's what the S65 was built for.
    I never disagreed the S65 was built with higher RPM in mind. So I get it finally. To you a high revving motor is basically the better motor LOL this is getting better and better

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why when I could manage BMW's?

    You aren't doing a very good job here...
    Get that resume over to them then Click here to enlarge

  15. #340
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You're not getting it. The problem wouldn't be the torque it would be the revs. There is no tuning you can do to fix the need to upshift far sooner and once you do you will be at lower torque than the car still in first.
    That discussion stemmed from the "response" and "lag" comments. Stay focused

  16. #341
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    Sticky should be head of M engineering and strategic direction...


    ... i will take CFO role... curious how we will meet in the middle lol
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  17. #342
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I know VERY well what the two mean. I've discussed them before and had threads not too long ago on this forum.
    Then why are struggling in this thread? And why make an incorrect accusation?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    With a proper tune (not one made for a family sedan) and boltons on each motor I will just laugh at the S65 to N54 torque comparo. Are you serious? lol
    Dead serious because you focus on crank and not torque. Also keep in mind if you just want to talk power/acceleration a supercharged M is adding torque torward redline while multiplying that torque for hp. So it gets stronger while the N54 falls off.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I never disagreed the S65 was built with higher RPM in mind. So I get it finally. To you a high revving motor is basically the better motor LOL this is getting better and better
    Not just revs but that's where the beauty of the S65 comes in. It's designed so well it has a flat curve so when you rev higher you make more power. It makes up for displacement in this manner. Whereas the N54 can be lazier and not designed to the same level because it just forces air in. Get it?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Get that resume over to them then
    I'd fire half the guys sitting on the board. Not happening, but it should.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  18. #343
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    That discussion stemmed from the "response" and "lag" comments. Stay focused
    You still will have response and lag issues no matter how you tune. The issue was you saying tuning for shorter gearing and my statement being you won't be able to hold it over the same RPM range. I think you need to focus.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  19. #344
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    Sticky should be head of M engineering and strategic direction...


    ... i will take CFO role... curious how we will meet in the middle lol
    You're fired.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  20. #345
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    Would this car be better with an N54? Anyone?

    Click here to enlarge
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  21. #346
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You're fired.
    u cant fire the second highest officer in the company but if you're numbers don't fly; i can certainly make that happen or shoo u out to a korean automaker
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  22. #347
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    u cant fire the second highest officer in the company but if you're numbers don't fly; i can certainly make that happen or shoo u out to a korean automaker
    I think I would have to be brand dictator or this won't work.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  23. #348
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Then why are struggling in this thread? And why make an incorrect accusation?
    S65 is the one struggling and you're the one trying your best to defend its place in an M3, not me.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Dead serious because you focus on crank and not torque. Also keep in mind if you just want to talk power/acceleration a supercharged M is adding torque torward redline while multiplying that torque for hp. So it gets stronger while the N54 falls off.
    Yes, with stock turbos it definitely does. Again, this is NOT the motor making it fall off toward 7k rpm. Its the turbo, you know it but you insist on pushing on.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not just revs but that's where the beauty of the S65 comes in. It's designed so well it has a flat curve so when you rev higher you make more power. It makes up for displacement in this manner. Whereas the N54 can be lazier and not designed to the same level because it just forces air in. Get it?
    So having a flat torque curve while having no torque is what makes an M motor in your world? Its under-po-we-re-d!

    The N54 is not lazier. And this nonsense about the S65 vs N54 head design. Its head is designed in a way that flows the way it flows given FI being there from the factory. It doesn't NEED to flow like an N/A head, do you understand the design reasoning there? I bet the S63tu head also "flows" less than the S65 head on a flow bench.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'd fire half the guys sitting on the board. Not happening, but it should.
    Not your call. Otherwise the world of M would never evolve/innovate past going larger displacement and N/A.

  24. #349
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Would this car be better with an N54? Anyone?

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...img5895y-1.jpg
    Ummm, now that is what the M3 should've had and we wouldn't have this conversation.

  25. #350
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    Another point with ITBs on the S65 that was brought up earlier and its almightiness. I suggest you do some educational reading on the advantages of VALVETRONIC as well. Its coming to the new M3 motor, already on the N55. Its SO good that the throttle body on the N55 almost makes zero sense at this point but given overengineering its naturally still there.

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