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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You cant get the s54 new.
    "msrp" price, or current market price. You know what I mean




  2. #102
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    Ya it actually does.
    Sticky always has to imply something secretly. lolol
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  3. #103
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    "msrp" price, or current market price. You know what I mean
    In that case the s54 is cheapest and lightest with the most power potential.

  4. #104
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    I guess I'll contribute since I owned a fairly modified N54 and now an S54 with plans to Supercharge.

    Note that the following comparison will use "M3" to refer to the e46 M3. I have some experience in the S65 but none boosted and not for a significant amount of time.

    In terms of fun to drive, the M3 absolutely kills the N54. It's so much more rewarding. Everything feels tighter and more aggressive. It's got a manly feel to it. Versus the N54 where you could drive around all day at low rpms using torque to glide around. The M3 makes you work for it; which is good for people like me but not everyone is a fan of that.

    I just installed headers on the M and at this point it really does not feel any slower than my FBO N54 except when you put it in 6th on the highway. That's the only time I miss the torque from the N54. Which ties in with my fun to drive comparison. The N54 was quicker on the street above 60 and on the drag strip but the M3 feels quicker thanks to it's ability to actually accelerate when the traction control kicks in and is just feels quicker overall (even when it isn't). When I had it at the drag strip I was surprised when it was slower than my N54 because it felt so much faster.

    On the street, I'd say that the majority of the time you will be just as fast as your N54 was. Except in perfect traction environments and when already breaking the speed limit.

    Now I want to warn you about supercharging it. I plan on going that route but you have to be prepared for the feeling. It won't be that different than the stock car until you really get on it. It's not like the turbo kits where it gives you that kick much earlier. It's so linear and so smooth you won't really know how much faster you are until you line up next to an NA M3 and blow his doors off.

    Good luck in your decision and know that they are all great cars. Chassis is better on the M's and the N54 has the advantage of torque and cost.
    Click here to enlarge

  5. #105
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    In that case the s54 is cheapest and lightest with the most power potential.
    I thought the s65 was lighter than the s54
    s54door

    Click here to enlarge

  6. #106
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    ^ n54 owners just look at peak hp on the graph and that's it. The e46 m3 is a more satisfying drive than any n54 equipped vehicle. It also offers better response, weight, and potential.

  7. #107
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JohnBlaze Click here to enlarge
    I thought the s65 was lighter than the s54
    That is true but im referring to it in the e46 m3 as a whole. The m3 is lighter.

  8. #108
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    after following this im actually chuckling a little bit... theres a large price difference from blowing a e9x M vs e46 blown & a upgraded N54 i think people are forgetting that a little... Another thing to factor is the price of failures. how much would it cost to fix a s65 vs s54 vs n54?
    JB4LIFE

  9. #109
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    Why factor in failure?

  10. #110
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why factor in failure?
    why not? god for bid something pops? would your project car have to sit for a year before you could save up to fix it or only a few weeks? just a thought
    JB4LIFE

  11. #111
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    why not? god for bid something pops? would your project car have to sit for a year before you could save up to fix it or only a few weeks? just a thought
    Pay to play but regardless chance of failure at these levels is low.

  12. #112
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    Bottom line....form what The op is looking for....the n54 vehicle fits the bill.

    I understand the m arguement, I really do bc I almost went that way, but the n54 is designed for boost and can handle the mods, the other cars aren't. When you really look at it, the chassis is what needs improvement, the n54 is very capable. Throw a LSD and coilovers on and your good to go.
    Click here to enlarge
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  13. #113
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Bottom line....form what The op is looking for....the n54 vehicle fits the bill.
    I think so as well.

  14. #114
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Bottom line....form what The op is looking for....the n54 vehicle fits the bill.

    I understand the m arguement, I really do bc I almost went that way, but the n54 is designed for boost and can handle the mods, the other cars aren't. When you really look at it, the chassis is what needs improvement, the n54 is very capable. Throw a LSD and coilovers on and your good to go.
    He wants to road race, I think you might need a ton more than coil-overs and an LSD to be equatable to an M series. There are more parts uncommon than common between the two cars.

  15. #115
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    So i'm in the same situation looking to buy a similar car once I get back from this deployment. I currently own a 135i auto and I can't stand that it's an auto. I am 5'10 190 lbs and it feels so much smaller than my previous e46 m3. Now I will come back with a decent amount of cash and no debt. I am looking at either a used e46 m3 garage queen that I can mod to my liking, a 335is from the military sales program @ 52k loaded, a used m3 around 52-55k, or should I wait for the 2014 m3?

    I am looking to have an awesome street car that I can have fun with on the street or take to road course. I also wan't to car to comfortably fit my friends when I'm going out and get looks when i'm cruising by ( My 135i is way to small).

    What do you guys think?

  16. #116
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You can rebuild as many as you want it doesn't change the architecture of the motor.

    The S65 even with a liter of displacement penalty puts down more power stock. Better curve, better heads, better valvetrain, higher redline, more room to increase stroke, etc.

    With just a supercharger it hits numbers on stock internals the S62 can't.

    If you can give me a technical reason why the S62 is better I'd love to hear it.
    Talking about architecture...

    The weak spot on all S65/S85 is the bedplate construction of the block.

    Quite a huge amount of these engines blow up due to bearing issues(mostly mains).
    Because block and bedplate move against each other under high stress.

    Then there is the Vanos high pressure pump issues that often take out the whole engine.

    Plus crank sprockets sheering off the crank and flying through the oil pan(usually on cars where launch control is used often).

    The heads are not a bit better or worse than the S62,both have flow restrictions in them.

    I do not at all deny the s65/S85 engines are more sophisticated than the S62,but they are in some areas over engineered,which makes them prone to fail.
    Take the oil pump drive on S65/S85 for example(crank drives Vanos pump,Vanos pump drives oil pump).
    An oil pump needs to be driven straight by the crank,to prevent loosing the oil pressure if anything else of the non-primary crank driven parts fail.


    The S62 has as weak spot only the rod bearings.
    Chain guides fail on those at mileages belt driven engines have already twice the belts replaced,so it does not really take account here.
    Chain driven engines also need maintenance.

    In a s/c or n/a setup,if you compare S62 and S65 at same power levels in the same car,the S62 outperforms the S65.

    Because it has $#@! loads of torque in all rpm ranges.

    Talk to guys who build the engines for the Grand Am cars.
    After the homologation for the S62 ran out and they had to use the S65,they were all desperately trying to get to the same power levels reliable.

    In a race enviroment the S62 has proven to be the most reliable BMW V-engine so far built.


    Sent you a pmClick here to enlarge

  17. #117
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    ^ n54 owners just look at peak hp on the graph and that's it. The e46 m3 is a more satisfying drive than any n54 equipped vehicle. It also offers better response, weight, and potential.
    Peak is great and all but power on the curve is and always will be a huge differentiator. I really do need to get into a blown S54 to really satisfy my curiosity. I really do think the S54 is awesome not to mention the chasis on the e46 likely fits more for what I desire.

    My N54 ran flawless, except for the HPFP replacement but that really is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. I have been reading about supercharged S54s for the better part of 2 years and I have come across only 1 thread communicating a catastrophic issue. The rod bearing issue on that platform does make me a little nervous though but I believe that was a 2001-2002 production issue. I guess all platforms have their demons.

    The last thing is the classic looks of the E46 M3, I think it is the best looking M car ever produced but beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. Thanks for everyone's input, I do very much appreciate it.
    2015 F82 M4 - DCT - YMB
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  18. #118
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    ^ n54 owners just look at peak hp on the graph and that's it. The e46 m3 is a more satisfying drive than any n54 equipped vehicle. It also offers better response, weight, and potential.
    It has to be both, or a median of both.

    And "satisfying" is all relative




  19. #119
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M3 isn't about being a straightline monster. Bolt on Vettes pulled the E46 too, so what? Do you still not get the M3 isn't built to be a Vette rival or some bolt on mod platform?

    It's the best IN ITS CLASS. Pretty damn competitive I'd say.
    highways are not organized into classes, its either a performane car, or not. and in N/A form, its horrible choice.

  20. #120
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    highways are not organized into classes, its either a performane car, or not. and in N/A form, its horrible choice.

    I agree, especially for the price. The next gen turbo m3/m4 will take care of that
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  21. #121
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I agree, especially for the price. The next gen turbo m3/m4 will take care of that
    exactly. I still think that the complication of the N54 (turbo's in general) is too picky for me to consider again. An E46 is too old, for my preference, the E9x M is easier to get to 500hp, remember, pump gas, all day everyday. The suspension doesnt "need"anything. interior/fit/finish is the highest of the 3. failure rate is the lowest. resale value the highest.

  22. #122
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    exactly. I still think that the complication of the N54 (turbo's in general) is too picky for me to consider again. An E46 is too old, for my preference, the E9x M is easier to get to 500hp, remember, pump gas, all day everyday. The suspension doesnt "need"anything. interior/fit/finish is the highest of the 3. failure rate is the lowest. resale value the highest.
    IMO though anything that's turbo will be like that. My buddy had a b5 s4, k04 swap and it was fast as he'll but always had a issue here and there. The pcars are no different. Actually any platform where you double or triple the stock power will have issues, it's just part of the game.

    For me, the 1m is the best of both worlds.... High resale, great suspension, unique looks, and a n54 Click here to enlarge
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  23. #123
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    The weak spot on all S65/S85 is the bedplate construction of the block.

    Quite a huge amount of these engines blow up due to bearing issues(mostly mains).
    Because block and bedplate move against each other under high stress.

    Then there is the Vanos high pressure pump issues that often take out the whole engine.
    You know what you are talking about, all correct.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    The heads are not a bit better or worse than the S62,both have flow restrictions in them.
    Both can be improved but the S65 heads are far superior and designed to flow to 9000+. Just look at the hp per liter numbers, redline, and curve. The S65 breathes considerably better.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Take the oil pump drive on S65/S85 for example(crank drives Vanos pump,Vanos pump drives oil pump).
    An oil pump needs to be driven straight by the crank,to prevent loosing the oil pressure if anything else of the non-primary crank driven parts fail.
    Dry sump it. Then which is better?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    The S62 has as weak spot only the rod bearings.
    Chain guides fail on those at mileages belt driven engines have already twice the belts replaced,so it does not really take account here.
    Chain driven engines also need maintenance.
    What about the bore spacing? The M62 really makes more sense for boost.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    In a s/c or n/a setup,if you compare S62 and S65 at same power levels in the same car,the S62 outperforms the S65.
    I do not agree with this whatsoever. And additionally, the S65 reaches higher power levels more easily than the S62. The S62 requires more boost to reach the same HP even with more displacement.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Because it has $#@! loads of torque in all rpm ranges.
    It has more torque due to the displacement but not all RPM ranges. What's its torque at 8500 rpm? Click here to enlarge

    Additionally, the S65 has far more room to increase stroke.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    In a race enviroment the S62 has proven to be the most reliable BMW V-engine so far built.
    Grand Am wins are nice. But... I'd have to say this title goes to the S70/2. Le Mans is a little more difficult... Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Sent you a pm
    PM much appreciated, sent one back.

  24. #124
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    The last thing is the classic looks of the E46 M3, I think it is the best looking M car ever produced but beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.
    No, you are right, it is the best looking M car ever produced.

  25. #125
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    It has to be both, or a median of both.

    And "satisfying" is all relative
    Not really. The E46 m3 offers better response, a lighter chassis, and a race bred motor. The N54 is lazy and slow in comparison.

    Let's be real, the N54 is only good for increasing power with bolt on's. The S54 is a work of god damn art.

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