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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    I've seen stock bottom end supras hold +900whp.
    On Pump Gas or Race/E85?
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  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    On Pump Gas or Race/E85?
    does it matter?

    We will just have to wait and see what the motors can hold, no reason to say they can or cant.




  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    does it matter?

    We will just have to wait and see what the motors can hold, no reason to say they can or cant.
    BIG difference, especially on turbo motors where with Race/E85 you can crank up the boost & run really aggressive timing. If it's making that power on Pump Gas, that's REALLY impressive cause that opens the door to over 1k WHP with Race/E85.

    I quickly googled some reputable top hp kits (BoostLogic, Titan Motorsports & Saad Racing), and not a lot of them go over 900 WHP on stock internals (probably to ensure reliability). That's why I asked about what kind of gas to make 900 WHP+ on a stock motor.
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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    For what, a single pull? People think you sneeze on it and its 1000 whp. It doesn't work that way. It took a long while before the Supras made reliable big power.
    Believe me, I'm no 2JZ fanbois. I'm actually not a fan at all. But with plenty of octane and a good tune they hold up well.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    BIG difference, especially on turbo motors where with Race/E85 you can crank up the boost & run really aggressive timing. If it's making that power on Pump Gas, that's REALLY impressive cause that opens the door to over 1k WHP with Race/E85.

    I quickly googled some reputable top hp kits (BoostLogic, Titan Motorsports & Saad Racing), and not a lot of them go over 900 WHP on stock internals (probably to ensure reliability). That's why I asked about what kind of gas to make 900 WHP+ on a stock motor.
    E85. I don't see it happening on 93.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    E85. I don't see it happening on 93.
    That's what I thought, everything I looked at said with pump was sub-700 WHP
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  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    That's what I thought, everything I looked at said with pump was sub-700 WHP
    I get E85 at a pump, for cheaper then 93, i can see the argument if you have to run 109




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    5 out of 5 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Sure you can make JZ bottom ends make over 700 wheel on stock internals, but it takes a lot of money to acquire the "tools" necessary to do that. Standalone, nasty fuel set up(pump or race/e85), lots of careful dyno/hwy pulls, not to mention all the A game hard parts you need(correct turbine, intake manifold, intercooler, radiator and other coolers). At that point, ask yourself why not just spend the 2k for piston/rods when you've got 15k plus sitting around it.

    Pump gas really isn't as lame as people assume it is, especially when you have 93 at most pumps. The trick is to control knock/heat. As mentioned before, e85 has cooling properties built in and good octane race gas will fight knock.

    A forged unit(piston; Wiseco, JE, etc etc) will fight knock a lot better than cast will, however it won't prevent it from happening. It just won't explode under those conditions.

    As stated before, it's all in the tune. A good tuner will look at A/Fs, boost, ign curves etc etc. A great tuner will look at all mentioned variables plus the forgotten ones; individual EGTs, vacuum/boost response, various o2 sensors in the loops, individual duty cycles. 700 wheel on a 3 liter stock bottom end application happens, but I don't want to be at arms length near it for any period of time.

    I really want to see someone push an n54 to the point of failure, single turbo is deff. the way to do it. I don't recommend anyone doing it on a mail order tune, but I think there will be a breaking point and we'll be just wanting for someone to build/fab a higher flowing injection pump(HPFP), in which case someone will have to tell the stock computer to piss off.

    This kit looks awesome, I just keep waiting for someone to sell the exhaust manifold by itself for a reasonable amount.
    Rocky

    e90 335i Sedan - A couple mods away from FBO
    MK3 Supra - 1jz swap, big single, supporting mods

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    I get E85 at a pump, for cheaper then 93, i can see the argument if you have to run 109
    Not every1 has E85 readily available. Example, I have to drive ~45 mins to get quality E85.
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Not every1 has E85 readily available. Example, I have to drive ~45 mins to get quality E85.
    >_<


    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge




  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Notsafe335i Click here to enlarge
    Sure you can make JZ bottom ends make over 700 wheel on stock internals, but it takes a lot of money to acquire the "tools" necessary to do that. Standalone, nasty fuel set up(pump or race/e85), lots of careful dyno/hwy pulls, not to mention all the A game hard parts you need(correct turbine, intake manifold, intercooler, radiator and other coolers). At that point, ask yourself why not just spend the 2k for piston/rods when you've got 15k plus sitting around it.

    Pump gas really isn't as lame as people assume it is, especially when you have 93 at most pumps. The trick is to control knock/heat. As mentioned before, e85 has cooling properties built in and good octane race gas will fight knock.

    A forged unit(piston; Wiseco, JE, etc etc) will fight knock a lot better than cast will, however it won't prevent it from happening. It just won't explode under those conditions.

    As stated before, it's all in the tune. A good tuner will look at A/Fs, boost, ign curves etc etc. A great tuner will look at all mentioned variables plus the forgotten ones; individual EGTs, vacuum/boost response, various o2 sensors in the loops, individual duty cycles. 700 wheel on a 3 liter stock bottom end application happens, but I don't want to be at arms length near it for any period of time.

    I really want to see someone push an n54 to the point of failure, single turbo is deff. the way to do it. I don't recommend anyone doing it on a mail order tune, but I think there will be a breaking point and we'll be just wanting for someone to build/fab a higher flowing injection pump(HPFP), in which case someone will have to tell the stock computer to piss off.

    This kit looks awesome, I just keep waiting for someone to sell the exhaust manifold by itself for a reasonable amount.
    Nice post.

  12. #62
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    Whether or not its making 900hp on e85 or 93 is irrelevant when it comes to the stress on the bottom end. You can go single or twin turbo to find the limits of the bottom end, it really makes no difference.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Whether or not its making 900hp on e85 or 93 is irrelevant when it comes to the stress on the bottom end. You can go single or twin turbo to find the limits of the bottom end, it really makes no difference.
    While I mostly agree one thing to consider is the way you get to 900hp on 93 octane vs E85 and how raised temperatures (EGTs) affect the motor over time. Heat is something that takes its toll over time and making the same power with something that inherently provides a hotter burn (93 octane) than another fuel (E85 in this case) will take its toll on the motor's internals faster. Stresses have also the potential to be very different depending on the tuning approach. The in-cylinder combustion environment will change with high boost low timing vs. lower boost higher timing, etc, basically different tuning strategies for different octane to get to the same power can and most likely will impose different stresses on any given motor's internals. In this case, given proper tuning, I think a motor tuned on E85 should last longer at the same power level as the motor tuned for 93 octane. Just my 2c

  14. #64
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    E85 may prove to be the best fuel for high hp builds. If it helps with cylinder cooling, that would be a major benefit. I'm really starting to consider it myself.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    E85 may prove to be the best fuel for high hp builds. If it helps with cylinder cooling, that would be a major benefit. I'm really starting to consider it myself.
    Do it, it smells nice too.




  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    Do it, it smells nice too.
    Click here to enlarge

    Need to come up with an e85 smiley.

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    While I mostly agree one thing to consider is the way you get to 900hp on 93 octane vs E85 and how raised temperatures (EGTs) affect the motor over time. Heat is something that takes its toll over time and making the same power with something that inherently provides a hotter burn (93 octane) than another fuel (E85 in this case) will take its toll on the motor's internals faster. Stresses have also the potential to be very different depending on the tuning approach. The in-cylinder combustion environment will change with high boost low timing vs. lower boost higher timing, etc, basically different tuning strategies for different octane to get to the same power can and most likely will impose different stresses on any given motor's internals. In this case, given proper tuning, I think a motor tuned on E85 should last longer at the same power level as the motor tuned for 93 octane. Just my 2c
    Makes sense. I could see those affecting the pistons (I was thinking more the crank/rods would be the failure). Regardless, if we are trying to talk about piston stress based on E85 vs 93 alone, that's a pretty big generalization. There are just too many other variables than to simply say "what octane" or "E85 or premium". To hit the same HP with 93 as you do with E85 you are potentially talking about different amounts of boost, timing, cylinder head, turbos, etc. To say well E85 will last longer than 93 on the same bottom end at the same power level isn't fair since all the components upstream must be different to even get 93 to hit the same performance as E85. Great example would be RBs on 93 making 450whp versus E85 on stockers making 450whp. Bottom end is the same and so is the power, but which one stresses the bottom end more? I don't honestly know btw.

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Makes sense. I could see those affecting the pistons (I was thinking more the crank/rods would be the failure). Regardless, if we are trying to talk about piston stress based on E85 vs 93 alone, that's a pretty big generalization. There are just too many other variables than to simply say "what octane" or "E85 or premium". To hit the same HP with 93 as you do with E85 you are potentially talking about different amounts of boost, timing, cylinder head, turbos, etc. To say well E85 will last longer than 93 on the same bottom end at the same power level isn't fair since all the components upstream must be different to even get 93 to hit the same performance as E85. Great example would be RBs on 93 making 450whp versus E85 on stockers making 450whp. Bottom end is the same and so is the power, but which one stresses the bottom end more? I don't honestly know btw.
    No no, the point I was trying to convey is same exact hardware, same power put down, just different octane. Any other setup and the point doesn't make sense.

  19. #69
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Not every1 has E85 readily available. Example, I have to drive ~45 mins to get quality E85.
    Joe's?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    No no, the point I was trying to convey is same exact hardware, same power put down, just different octane. Any other setup and the point doesn't make sense.
    Oh well yeah, that makes sense. You're running the car way harder to get that power on 93 than you would on E85. I guess I was assuming that to hit the numbers we are talking about that people are doing modifications. That is to say I was assuming that they were trying to get the most of the motor. If you're going to modify the thing to X hp on 93 and then not tune for more when you switch to E85, well that doesn't make sense. Defeats the whole purpose of running the E85.

  21. #71
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    Joe's?
    I've gotten the best results using the Shell in Philadelphia (Vine Street). The station is right over the Ben Franklin Bridge
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  22. #72
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    Gas discussion notwithstanding how do you guys feel about the turbo choices the top mount will provide?

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Gas discussion notwithstanding how do you guys feel about the turbo choices the top mount will provide?
    It's an amazing opportunity for sure. There are so many great turbos out there that it'll be easy to find a turbo capable of 800hp or easy to find a turbo that's full spool by 3500rpms. When you get bored you just swap them out. You want to set a 1/4mi record? Slap the big one on and change maps. Slap the little one on when your done. Of course all turbos won't be interchangeable but you'll have a nice selection though.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, DCI, 7" FMIC, MT ET Streets when needed


  24. #74
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    interesting...sub'd. 2013 seems to be unfolding well. Now if only I can win that contest...

  25. #75
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    >_<


    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Any E85 delivery places in Central FL?

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