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  1. #51
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    This is SO awesome. Thanks for this Terry. There are MANY people on here looking for more options. This is actual test data that will help people make more informed decisions.
    2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends Click here to enlarge

  2. #52
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    This is SO awesome. Thanks for this Terry. There are MANY people on here looking for more options. This is actual test data that will help people make more informed decisions.
    +1




  3. #53
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    Been playing around with the rig a bit more since the factory pump results were so much higher than last time I tested the factory pump using an external regulator set at 72psi.

    It seems this factory regulator is not working as I expected it would. It basically open flows with no restriction on the outlet which is why the factory pump results are now so inflated. I connected a pressure gauge and blocked the outlet as a test. The pressure would go as high as 90psi before I shut it down. So it's not able to bleed off enough pressure through its internal return. If we can get the pressure through it down back in range then we can measure the flow coming off the return as the overall pump flow. It might just be easier to use the external regulator though. I'll play with it more later.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  4. #54
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    Switched over to a aftermarket regulator and we're back in business. 168 L/hr on the factory pump. Test results on the Walbro and factory + Walbro were very interesting. Going to run them again tomorrow before posting. Click here to enlarge



    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #55
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    Those lines you're using, same ID as OEM?
    Click here to enlarge

  6. #56
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    Awesome Terry, finishing up the intank install on the stage 3 test car tomorrow. Looking forward to your results.

  7. #57
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    Awesome! Surprised the breaker doesnt crash out immediately since usually highest current is at start up.

  8. #58
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    Great job Terry! I'm very eager to see what sorts of results we'll see. I know that the vishnu system offers some kind of machined Venturi connector to the Walbro in-line pump. Is such a setup done here? I don't know whether it makes a difference or not. I am speaking from ignorance.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ferruccio Click here to enlarge
    Great job Terry! I'm very eager to see what sorts of results we'll see. I know that the vishnu system offers some kind of machined Venturi connector to the Walbro in-line pump. Is such a setup done here? I don't know whether it makes a difference or not. I am speaking from ignorance.
    At least 20hp to the wheels, right @shiv@vishnu?

  10. #60
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    Would running two pumps in parallel and upping the lpfp pressure to 90 or 100psi help the hpfp keep up? (Since we don't have any replacement parts for the hpfp right now.)

  11. #61
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    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  12. #62
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    Wait what, in theory 867 hp supported?

  13. #63
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    Theory schmery, it's just a relative number using a made up E85 BSFC to give a context to the flow numbers. The real story is the flow ratings in liters per hour.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Theory schmery, it's just a relative number using a made up E85 BSFC to give a context to the flow numbers. The real story is the flow ratings in liters per hour.
    Exactly, relative increases in flow between each setup...
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Terry do you have an extra E85 pump laying around. Want to test 2 of the Walbro E85's in series for $#@!s and giggles to see what we get? I buttoned up the stage 3 setup this morning before I opened shop now I wish I would have waited til I read this.

  16. #66
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    I have one in the car and one on the test bench. I have some ideas for things to test on the car but auto transmission issues are more of a hot topic for us right now. Once people start to get fuel pressure drops again on the low pressure side I'll spend more time on it.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I have one in the car and one on the test bench. I have some ideas for things to test on the car but auto transmission issues are more of a hot topic for us right now. Once people start to get fuel pressure drops again on the low pressure side I'll spend more time on it.
    Sounds good. I actually meant in parallel but my hands typed series. We will see what happens once we get this car on the dyno and we no longer have exhaust restrictions to worry about

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Theory schmery, it's just a relative number using a made up E85 BSFC to give a context to the flow numbers. The real story is the flow ratings in liters per hour.
    Ok so what kind of fueling figures are we actually looking at here? Where would you draw the line in supported power? I do what you did and the result is ______.

  19. #69
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    I can't answer that, as the low fuel pressure system is only part of the problem. I think the single E85 pump is good enough for pretty much everyone though. The only question would be whether you leave the venturi at full flow as I have or whether you block it a bit to up the flow potential. Those who plan to support more than 520rw on E85 no meth might want to consider restricting the venturi. Those who plan to support say 700rw on E85 no meth probably will need the dual pump setup in parallel along with high pressure pump upgrades that don't exist yet.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    high pressure pump upgrades that don't exist yet.
    This still seems to be the main problem.

  21. #71
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This still seems to be the main problem.
    The good part is, up until now no one has really had the potential to see that much RW to test the limits. The single seems to have tapped out around 650 or so. Lets hope we can explore those a little more with the Stage 3 set up so we can learn more about the fuel system. Terry when I bring the car down I will bring that extra HPFP if you want so you can do a little more exploring with it.

  22. #72
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    HAHAHAHAHA. That's all I have to say. Fricken called it. @Sticky can you copy the results over to this forum too for future searchers.

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    HAHAHAHAHA. That's all I have to say. Fricken called it. @Sticky can you copy the results over to this forum too for future searchers.
    As long as @Terry@BMS is cool with it, sure. If not I'll edit it out Terry:

    "Hey guys,

    I took a few hours yesterday and today to setup a test rig and evaluate various fuel pump upgrade options. Originally I planned to test the OEM regulator along with the factory pump as shown in the first video, but soon realized it wasn't viable as a test rig. So I switched over to a trusty stand alone regulator set @ 75psi. The factory regulator runs around 72psi. The extra 3psi is to help account for the pressure drop through the fuel line that would run to the front of the engine, etc, that is not present in this test.

    Click here to enlarge

    I'll describe the setups in the order of flow. There are also some videos below of various test configurations.

    Setup 1 : Factory pump. 176 lph.

    The pump has around 40k miles on it and seemed to be fine working in car. Testing was a little lower than expected at 176lph but on gasoline with a lower BSFC that would be enough to support over 475hp. Reasonable enough.

    Setup 2: Factory pump + $100 Walbro Universal Inline. 242 lph.

    This represents a very simple inline setup. The Walbro Universal pump has barbed fittings and slides right in between the OEM pump outlet and regulator inlet without the need for special hardware. For most of us where the factory pump isn't able to keep up this might be enough to keep pressure on target while avoiding the other more expensive and more difficult to install options below. For $100 I was pretty impressed with it.

    Setup 3: Walbro E85 Alone w/ Factory Venturi. 285 lph.

    This is the Walbro 267 pump configured exactly as we have in our fuel pump DIY. No restrictor on the venturi. No special hardware required. It's a proven reliable and viable setup. In our testing it has been more than enough to max out the factory high pressure pump @ 70psi @ 520rw on E85. Runs around $200 including the tee and extra line to install it.

    Setup 4: Factory pump + Walbro E85 In Series. 303 lph.

    This is essentially the $600 FFTEC fuel pump upgrade. A Walbro E85 pump whose inlet is connected to the outlet of the factory pump using a CNC machined adapter. Instead of the adapter I used a hose and a hose clamp on the short pump inlet. Verified it was not leaking. Flow was around 6% better than Setup 4 but with two pumps working current usage was very high at 21amps, which means a lot of stress on the electrical system and a lot of heat being generated that ultimately will heat the fuel up more than Setup 3.

    Setup 5: Walbro E85 Alone without the Venturi. 344 lph.

    This is the same Walbro E85 pump, using the same DIY, only without the venturi valve used to fill the bucket. I've tested this on the road for several hundred miles without issue and while it's viable it's not ideal when you run the tank down to very low fuel levels. But the test does show just how strong the single Walbro E85 pump is when it isn't having to pull fluid through the factory pump. Adding a restrictor between the tee and the venturi would likely greatly boost flow over Setup 3 alone. As soon as we start to see low fuel pressure drops on Setup 3 our next move will be to add a restrictor to the venturi.

    Setup 6: Factory pump + Walbro E85 In Parallel. 425 lph.

    For this setup the outlet of the factory bucket was teed in to the Walbro E85 so both pumps could work in parallel. This is the universally preferred method for running dual pumps and because the Walbro pump is feeding fuel from the tank no special CNC hardware is required. While it drew the same ~21 amps of current as Test 4 it absolutely crushed it on flow. a 40% increase using the same two pumps changing only the way they are connected. For those who are maxing out option 5 and are ready for dual pumps this is definitely the way to do it.

    Quick summary:

    As expected all options above offer an upgrade to the factory fuel system. I am currently using Setup 3 at 520whp on E85 and I've yet to run out of low fuel pressure. For factory turbo cars whose factory pump is having a hard time keeping up on E85, in the 450whp range, I would consider starting at Setup 2. It's inexpensive and easy to install. For those who really need a lot more than the Walbro alone can offer running it in parallel with the factory pump is clearly the way to go.

    Original test rig:



    Revised rig:



    Factory + Walbro:



    Factory + 255lph inline:

    "

  24. #74
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    Decided to pull everything back out of the tank and rig the stock pump and E85 Walbro up parallel. I wish I wish I wouldn't have removed the stock pump from the bucket now. But it is what it is, I will post some pics of how I end up doing it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Decided to pull everything back out of the tank and rig the stock pump and E85 Walbro up parallel. I wish I wish I wouldn't have removed the stock pump from the bucket now. But it is what it is, I will post some pics of how I end up doing it.
    Only limitation is that smaller lines will hit parallels flow harder than it would on series. So it should also be determined of the stock lines are a significant restriction yet.

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