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  1. #1
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    DEFIVfab //M diff lockdown in final testing...

    Well, the //M specific diff brace/lockdown process of design is done for the most part, the test vehicle is back in the hands of it's owner and will be available once more comprehensive feedback/video is acquired from said owner. That being said, I had to re-design this one from scratch, it shares similarities with the N54 cars only in regards to the two front diff bushings, everything else is drastically different. A jig has been made for replication and during the process I realized that there are several ways to offer this as far as materials used in duplication, naturally cost increases will apply to which material I use, so I figured it would be best to get feedback from the community in regards to the matter. The initial prototype was made from 4130 chromoly steel, which was selected mostly because there's mountains of it around the shop, the only drawback is the manufacturing of each unit is time consuming, probably double what the second version takes to make, which utilizes 4130 plate steel, cut to a template. equally as strong, but about 12-15lbs heavier. Each piece that is made from 4130 will require powdercoating, which bumps the price a bit again. obviously the full tubular design is more attractive and much lighter,but the use of that would drive final cost near $800-900+,whereas the plate version would be a bit more affordable...and as an added dimension in expensive materials, I could use titanium as well but now were talking well over $1k...but I could make them if desired, those would be made to order obviously. I believe I have enough spare Ti laying around to make one at this point. So, thoughts/feelings/questions regarding the final incarnation of this would be greatly appreciated. here's a teaser of the tubular one in the jig.mounts to car via supplied polyurethane bushings on either end.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Oh, I forgot to mention I made a bolt-in driveshaft loop while I was under there. Here's an installed photo, Its placed within NHRA guidelines. Curious to see what demand is for these as well...

    Click here to enlarge

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    Awesome work!!!
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    Oh, I forgot to mention I made a bolt-in driveshaft loop while I was under there. Here's an installed photo, Its placed within NHRA guidelines. Curious to see what demand is for these as well...

    Click here to enlarge
    The demand for these is... me Click here to enlarge

    Looking forward to getting mine.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    Well, the //M specific diff brace/lockdown process of design is done for the most part, the test vehicle is back in the hands of it's owner and will be available once more comprehensive feedback/video is acquired from said owner. That being said, I had to re-design this one from scratch, it shares similarities with the N54 cars only in regards to the two front diff bushings, everything else is drastically different. A jig has been made for replication and during the process I realized that there are several ways to offer this as far as materials used in duplication, naturally cost increases will apply to which material I use, so I figured it would be best to get feedback from the community in regards to the matter. The initial prototype was made from 4130 chromoly steel, which was selected mostly because there's mountains of it around the shop, the only drawback is the manufacturing of each unit is time consuming, probably double what the second version takes to make, which utilizes 4130 plate steel, cut to a template. equally as strong, but about 12-15lbs heavier. Each piece that is made from 4130 will require powdercoating, which bumps the price a bit again. obviously the full tubular design is more attractive and much lighter,but the use of that would drive final cost near $800-900+,whereas the plate version would be a bit more affordable...and as an added dimension in expensive materials, I could use titanium as well but now were talking well over $1k...but I could make them if desired, those would be made to order obviously. I believe I have enough spare Ti laying around to make one at this point. So, thoughts/feelings/questions regarding the final incarnation of this would be greatly appreciated. here's a teaser of the tubular one in the jig.mounts to car via supplied polyurethane bushings on either end.

    Click here to enlarge
    Even though it may be obvious to you it might be a good idea to explain what this does, why it is necessary, etc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Even though it may be obvious to you it might be a good idea to explain what this does, why it is necessary, etc.
    Well, my initial driving impression of a s/c E9X M3 left me noticing a large deficit of proper power transfer to the rear tires and excessive chatter/hop from launch on the right surfaces, most notably a certain amount of instability/odd behavior during tire spin. There wasn't a sense of which way the car was going to go during aggressive wheelspin and high rpm DCT upshifts felt very "twitchy",if not a little dangerous. Further inspection revealed that the front two bushings matched the same poor design as the N54 cars and were damaged to a greater extent. Most importantly it shares the same terrible 3 point mounting strategy, which is the birthplace of wheel hop,albeit the upper rear bushing seemed to be stiffer than the N54's mount. Another thing that struck me as horrifically insufficient for higher output S65's was the actual LSD unit's design itself, the short/long axle shaft/axle cup spline design and the fact that the passenger side rear wheel can only receive a portion of the power at best leaves me in a position to highly recommend doing an OS giken conversion if boosting your S65 or building a stroker/etc. The factory unit is set to fail under extreme loads, not to mention power transfer is undesirable. Regardless of what lsd unit one runs power and the fact that the differential unit can twist/bang around once shock is applied will lead to only one thing; breakage will occur despite the stronger components utilized in the M cars. The theory and design of this variant are exactly the same as the N54 design, although the differences in diff covers,subframe design,etc led the actual solution looking quite different...but it's job is exactly the same. As a sidenote, I have been using OS giken with Supras for many years, so I can do the OS diff installs if need be as well as the supporting modifications/machining required to do so. OS converts the diff assembly to a stronger and much more stable equal length spline shaft/clutch type lsd unit that mirrors units they have been very successful with in preceding years. It's my first choice in clutch type lsd's. highly recommended in boosted/high output apps. Favorable results/added stability were gained running an oem lsd, much more than I expected. It really tightened up the back end of the car, I'm going to let LM get a full impression of the differences in the car because of his seat time preceding the changes eclipses the short test drive I had beforehand.I'll wait on his input before releasing officially, only because i want to ensure perfection.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    OS converts the diff assembly to a stronger and much more stable equal length spline shaft/clutch type lsd unit that mirrors units they have been very successful with in preceding years. It's my first choice in clutch type lsd's.
    If one has a clutch dype diff is the lockdown kit still a necessity for high power M's?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If one has a clutch dype diff is the lockdown kit still a necessity for high power M's?
    probably even more so as more balanced power is applied, the chances of uneven movement upon the differential carrier would increase.

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    why would anyone opt for a clutch based diff? Excuse me if it is a dumb question...but I thought those were for low Hp cheap diffs?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    why would anyone opt for a clutch based diff? Excuse me if it is a dumb question...but I thought those were for low Hp cheap diffs?
    Absolutely not, a purpose built properly matched clutch style lsd can be found in a majority of high performance rwd cars all over the world...It all boils down to friction material on the clutches themselves and proper pre-load to the clutch packs being matched to the application. for example, the oem M lsd isn't even a true conventional clutch style diff, it only features clutch packs on the right side,the left is like an open style diff with a partial amount of power being applied to the right wheel. A conventional purpose-built clutch type diff features an equal amount of pre-loaded clutch packs on both sides of the spider gear assembly. there's plenty of diagrams available on youtube that explain the operation of every diff style with animation. By far the cheapest/least desirable design is the "viscous diff"...terrible. I use the same OS clutch styled lsd whether im building a road race car or a street/strip car, the design is very versatile and lends itself to each particular need better than the rest in anything i've done. The Quaife is a decent diff for the right applications, although I didn't see anything available for this platform as of yet. every auto manufacturer makes cheap and weak versions of every style of diff,i've seen many break. nothing beats a well made aftermarket solution, especially considering the axle cup spline differences in an S65 car, the OS solution to this is clever and makes much more sense in high out put apps.

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    rick -- have you ever looked at an E46 diff?? Just wondering if BMW had the same style diff or if the cut costs/corner with the E9x Ms Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    rick -- have you ever looked at an E46 diff?? Just wondering if BMW had the same style diff or if the cut costs/corner with the E9x Ms Click here to enlarge
    I haven't(internally) although it's interesting that they had a successful mounting strategy(4 points) for decades, then switched to the obviously flawed 3 point strategy with the E9X...they have a tendency of late to over-engineer certain things for the sake of smoothness/quiet cabins overall-which doesn't blend with the needs of a performance enthusiast. I honestly can't imagine what they were thinking when they designed that E9X M lsd...there's nothing wrong with repeating the implementation of time honored and proven designs,engineers are funny people sometimes....
    Last edited by rick@defiv; 01-04-2013 at 12:46 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    Absolutely not, a purpose built properly matched clutch style lsd can be found in a majority of high performance rwd cars all over the world...It all boils down to friction material on the clutches themselves and proper pre-load to the clutch packs being matched to the application. for example, the oem M lsd isn't even a true conventional clutch style diff, it only features clutch packs on the right side,the left is like an open style diff with a partial amount of power being applied to the right wheel. A conventional purpose-built clutch type diff features an equal amount of pre-loaded clutch packs on both sides of the spider gear assembly. there's plenty of diagrams available on youtube that explain the operation of every diff style with animation. By far the cheapest/least desirable design is the "viscous diff"...terrible. I use the same OS clutch styled lsd whether im building a road race car or a street/strip car, the design is very versatile and lends itself to each particular need better than the rest in anything i've done. The Quaife is a decent diff for the right applications, although I didn't see anything available for this platform as of yet. every auto manufacturer makes cheap and weak versions of every style of diff,i've seen many break. nothing beats a well made aftermarket solution, especially considering the axle cup spline differences in an S65 car, the OS solution to this is clever and makes much more sense in high out put apps.
    Please start using paragraphs. Please. Click here to enlarge

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    The advantages to titanium are lower weight pretty much in this application, right?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The advantages to titanium are lower weight pretty much in this application, right?
    LOL, I do have a tendency to run on when the technical stuff starts coming outClick here to enlarge...
    Titanium is great because it's strength is incredibly high for it's weight thickness...plus the welds look awesomeClick here to enlarge(have to be welded in an oxygen free environment aka "glovebox").incredible stuff nonetheless

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    LOL, I do have a tendency to run on when the technical stuff starts coming outClick here to enlarge...
    Titanium is great because it's strength is incredibly high for it's weight thickness...plus the welds look awesomeClick here to enlarge(have to be welded in an oxygen free environment aka "glovebox").incredible stuff nonetheless
    What would the cost different be with the titanium? I like to be special. Plus, this isn't going to go on any other M3 that will be putting down more power or getting more abuse at the strip.

    I'm wondering if this will affect the 60 foot at all?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What would the cost different be with the titanium? I like to be special. Plus, this isn't going to go on any other M3 that will be putting down more power or getting more abuse at the strip.

    I'm wondering if this will affect the 60 foot at all?
    I sent in a price request on re-stocking the Ti I have. Based on my initial impressions of the test car from launch, It seemed much more stable and stayed straighter...unfortunately it is so damn cold here, traction wasn't happening until 3rd gear....at least.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Initial Impressions:

    First I have to elaborate on my experience with Rick himself. EXTREMELY professional man. I was only slightly hesitant to be dropping off an expensive and precision instrument to a person I do not know, for a short, but undetermined amount of time. He's local, but not really, I couldn't just drop in after work if I chose. I recorded mileage/fuel/mpg, etc, and inspected my car for any defects prior to bringing it to him.

    He was very straightforward and honest/open about what he was going to do, and how it would happen. He told me he was going to keep me informed of any progress or setbacks along the way.. A MAJOR understatement. The following day I realized he was not kidding when I received 4-5 page text messages, and basically everyday after that. Not to mention the update/progress pictures along the way.

    I would say within 48 hours he had some things made up already. Whats key to note, and credit to his honesty mixed with OCD, is that my car had an issue. An issue that I was only slightly aware of. (You may remember me saying that after the track day I heard a "whirring" sound coming from the rear) He informed me that he noticed the sound on the pre-inspection test drive, this is when I told him about the possible issue, I thought it was the axle.

    When he drained the diff oil, he noticed the pieces metal shaving. This is why the project took as long as it did. I was evaluating my options as to diff repair or replacement. Given the circumstances, I settled on repair. As it turns out, Rick@DEFIV can do all the required work. Problem, is that BMW does not sell everything required to repair it. I had to outsource. That actually failed as the parts that arrived were incorrect, but he was able to salvage part #s off original and get the proper stuff ordered.

    This is all concurrent with him fabbing up the actual kit and driveshaft loop.

    Once the parts were in hand, he repaired my diff and continued along his contracted work. While re-installing, he noticed the wiring of my cutouts was not favorable, and opted to take it upon himself to re-route properly Click here to enlarge

    And to conclude my observations of Rick, I have to tell you that my communication with him was way, waaay above par. He fixed things I didn't know needed to be fixed, educated me on some other aspects.I also noticed that there were no defects or conflicts with my pre-drop-off inspection. Mileage was exactly what he told me (pre/post drive) interior had not been abused/disregarded, etc. Showed me my old worn and abused parts, the Unicorn piss/oil BMW uses with the shavings in it.

    Hell, the guy even washed and waxed my car for my pick up!



    To the good stuff:
    From the second I picked the car up, and began the trip home, I noticed that the car felt different. I couldnt place why, but it just felt more solid. Being freezing temperatures, I didnt push the limits of traction just yet. During city commute and highway driving I came to realize that the car handled like it should. PREDICTABLE. The rear end went where you wanted it to go and it let you know what it was doing.

    THE BEST thing I found out. was that the bit of sloppyness in the DCT was GONE. Some of you may remember me and M&M talking about perfect shift points, and if you grab the next gear at the right RPM, the car lunges forward.. Well.. thats every time now. That could be an overstatement,it doesnt lunge at moderate speed, but when driving at moderate speeds, the DCT shifts and grabs perfectly, I dont feel any lag or delay that I used, and is found in every DCT Ive ever driven, Its now spot on, grabs and engages.

    When driving at a more aggressive level, the car lunges now, just as it should. Basically what it did was allow the transmission to do what it does best, better, and repeatedly.

    I see these all as side benefits of the original intent of the kit, but it is worth it to me in that regard alone.

    As we are in freezing temperatures, and I have a higher HP output than most, and PS2's on the rear, you can imagine that my biggest obstacle right now is traction. I tested this theory yesterday afternoon at 50mph/3rd gear and confirmed that The rear will just spin once past 6500RPM. Not exactly the review your waiting to read about yet. What I did notice, is once again, as someone intimately familiar with racing this car from a roll and the tires spinning, is that it is all controllable. Another welcomed side-effect. PREDICTABILITY. No more do I fear the car going one way when I would think another. I know where its telling me its going, and I can adjust/correct accordingly.

    The car feels like it should now.

    NVH:
    easy, none.

    I wanted to wait a few until I had ample time to test wheelhop, but again, circumstances are not conducive right now, but the weekend is here and I should find time to prove what I already know...That we have an answer.
    Knowing my affection to recording Everything Auto-related that I can, you can expect Some video to back up my claims. (still waiting on GoPro 3 Black to arrive Click here to enlarge )

    I should have more incite in the next 2 days or so when I can complete my testing
    Last edited by LostMarine; 01-04-2013 at 05:16 PM.

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    ^^Sounds awesome -- Def testimate to Rick, the top notch customer service & quality of work he's putting out there. Very interested to see how everything feels with some more aggressive "testing" once the weather gets a little nicer out.
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    Thanks. I mean it when I say that aside from my immediate family, nothing is more important to me than my work. I look at products and services that I provide as a direct representation of myself, it's certainly not something I take lightly. It's also not about getting rich quick at the sake of compromising quality...I have no intention of expanding beyond the means of my total control.
    I stay small and will continue to do so so that my focus applies to whatever i'm working on at the moment,with minimal multitasking. I've seen way to many shops based off a smart, reputable originator run awry because of too many variables or unworthy employees mistakes. That scenario is of zero interest to me...It's not the easiest way of doing things at times, but it allows for the most consistent results. I have plans, and and a spotless reputation is a requirement of what I plan to achieveClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    ^^Sounds awesome -- Def testimate to Rick, the top notch customer service & quality of work he's putting out there. Very interested to see how everything feels with some more aggressive "testing" once the weather gets a little nicer out.
    I'd like to see a set drag radials on there, although that may be the kiss of death to bmw's fantastic "half" clutch LSD...maybe not though. That car would be AWESOME if it hooked and pulled from a dead stop. Makes some wonderful sounds,certainly makes me prideful of my German lineageClick here to enlarge...regardless I have full confidence that the part can handle whatever is thrown at it. I'm no stranger to putting hp to the ground as efficiently as possible.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Initial Impressions:

    First I have to elaborate on my experience with Rick himself. EXTREMELY professional man. I was only slightly hesitant to be dropping off an expensive and precision instrument to a person I do not know, for a short, but undetermined amount of time. He's local, but not really, I couldn't just drop in after work if I chose. I recorded mileage/fuel/mpg, etc, and inspected my car for any defects prior to bringing it to him.

    He was very straightforward and honest/open about what he was going to do, and how it would happen. He told me he was going to keep me informed of any progress or setbacks along the way.. A MAJOR understatement. The following day I realized he was not kidding when I received 4-5 page text messages, and basically everyday after that. Not to mention the update/progress pictures along the way.

    I would say within 48 hours he had some things made up already. Whats key to note, and credit to his honesty mixed with OCD, is that my car had an issue. An issue that I was only slightly aware of. (You may remember me saying that after the track day I heard a "whirring" sound coming from the rear) He informed me that he noticed the sound on the pre-inspection test drive, this is when I told him about the possible issue, I thought it was the axle.

    When he drained the diff oil, he noticed the pieces metal shaving. This is why the project took as long as it did. I was evaluating my options as to diff repair or replacement. Given the circumstances, I settled on repair. As it turns out, Rick@DEFIV can do all the required work. Problem, is that BMW does not sell everything required to repair it. I had to outsource. That actually failed as the parts that arrived were incorrect, but he was able to salvage part #s off original and get the proper stuff ordered.

    This is all concurrent with him fabbing up the actual kit and driveshaft loop.

    Once the parts were in hand, he repaired my diff and continued along his contracted work. While re-installing, he noticed the wiring of my cutouts was not favorable, and opted to take it upon himself to re-route properly Click here to enlarge

    And to conclude my observations of Rick, I have to tell you that my communication with him was way, waaay above par. He fixed things I didn't know needed to be fixed, educated me on some other aspects.I also noticed that there were no defects or conflicts with my pre-drop-off inspection. Mileage was exactly what he told me (pre/post drive) interior had not been abused/disregarded, etc. Showed me my old worn and abused parts, the Unicorn piss/oil BMW uses with the shavings in it.

    Hell, the guy even washed and waxed my car for my pick up!



    To the good stuff:
    From the second I picked the car up, and began the trip home, I noticed that the car felt different. I couldnt place why, but it just felt more solid. Being freezing temperatures, I didnt push the limits of traction just yet. During city commute and highway driving I came to realize that the car handled like it should. PREDICTABLE. The rear end went where you wanted it to go and it let you know what it was doing.

    THE BEST thing I found out. was that the bit of sloppyness in the DCT was GONE. Some of you may remember me and M&M talking about perfect shift points, and if you grab the next gear at the right RPM, the car lunges forward.. Well.. thats every time now. That could be an overstatement,it doesnt lunge at moderate speed, but when driving at moderate speeds, the DCT shifts and grabs perfectly, I dont feel any lag or delay that I used, and is found in every DCT Ive ever driven, Its now spot on, grabs and engages.

    When driving at a more aggressive level, the car lunges now, just as it should. Basically what it did was allow the transmission to do what it does best, better, and repeatedly.

    I see these all as side benefits of the original intent of the kit, but it is worth it to me in that regard alone.

    As we are in freezing temperatures, and I have a higher HP output than most, and PS2's on the rear, you can imagine that my biggest obstacle right now is traction. I tested this theory yesterday afternoon at 50mph/3rd gear and confirmed that The rear will just spin once past 6500RPM. Not exactly the review your waiting to read about yet. What I did notice, is once again, as someone intimately familiar with racing this car from a roll and the tires spinning, is that it is all controllable. Another welcomed side-effect. PREDICTABILITY. No more do I fear the car going one way when I would think another. I know where its telling me its going, and I can adjust/correct accordingly.

    The car feels like it should now.

    NVH:
    easy, none.

    I wanted to wait a few until I had ample time to test wheelhop, but again, circumstances are not conducive right now, but the weekend is here and I should find time to prove what I already know...That we have an answer.
    Knowing my affection to recording Everything Auto-related that I can, you can expect Some video to back up my claims. (still waiting on GoPro 3 Black to arrive Click here to enlarge )

    I should have more incite in the next 2 days or so when I can complete my testing
    Good review! I totally concur with your dealings with Rick@defiv and the quality of his product.

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    I'd like to see a set drag radials on there, although that may be the kiss of death to bmw's fantastic "half" clutch LSD...maybe not though. That car would be AWESOME if it hooked and pulled from a dead stop. Makes some wonderful sounds,certainly makes me prideful of my German lineage
    Ill see if I can borrow @akh23456 s drags for a few days. but I dont think weather will be getting better any time soon.

    and yea, she sounds pretty good Click here to enlarge

  24. #24
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    I'd like to see a set drag radials on there, although that may be the kiss of death to bmw's fantastic "half" clutch LSD...maybe not though. That car would be AWESOME if it hooked and pulled from a dead stop. Makes some wonderful sounds,certainly makes me prideful of my German lineageClick here to enlarge...regardless I have full confidence that the part can handle whatever is thrown at it. I'm no stranger to putting hp to the ground as efficiently as possible.
    Haha German handcrafted upgrades improving a German automobile.... Rick, you have a website by anychance? Tried googling it & only find reviews/comments on the Supra forums regarding your work (all positive comments btw). IIRC, you're in the Bucks County area in PA
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  25. #25
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Haha German handcrafted upgrades improving a German automobile.... Rick, you have a website by anychance? Tried googling it & only find reviews/comments on the Supra forums regarding your work (all positive comments btw). IIRC, you're in the Bucks County area in PA
    No website plans as of yet(although i do get pressured by friends/clients frequently), operate by word of mouth and by appointment only, that's enough to keep me plenty busy. Big fan of operating within my means....and yes, right in Bucks county just outside of Doylestown itself. One rural road off of rt 611Click here to enlarge

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