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Thread: Vishnu / FFtec inline fuel pump kit for 2007-2010 BMW 335i N54 - $608.27

              
   
  1. #226
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    This approach has been done on other platforms without ProEFI. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure EVOs can do it on stock ECU now. It's all about the GM flex fuel sensor. That is monitored by the tuning software for ethanol content. The tune monitors that and adjusts the tune accordingly.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Does anyone know HOW the Vishnu/FFTEC FlexFuel sensor even works with the tune/DME?? Reason why I ask is because Shiv has advertised the FlexFuel sensor as the "miracle solution" and that you'll never have to know what the ethanol content is because the tune will automatically adjust the fueling, timing & boost for the different ethanol levels. BUT it's not like Shiv is mimicking the ProEFI approach & creating (and this is where I could be wrong) an 91/93 octane tune & then a pure E85 tune and letting the PROcede adjust accordingly to the ethanol concentration.
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  3. #227
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ferruccio Click here to enlarge
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    I'm confused.
    I'm asking about how Vishnu can responsible tune for varying ethanol concentrations with the PROcede

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    This approach has been done on other platforms without ProEFI. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure EVOs can do it on stock ECU now. It's all about the GM flex fuel sensor. That is monitored by the tuning software for ethanol content. The tune monitors that and adjusts the tune accordingly.
    SO by just adding an ethanol sensor, any car can be made FlexFuel? I just don't understand how adding the sensor & knowing the specific ethanol concentration, that the PROcede can adjust the tune on the fly. If there are specific PROcede maps that need to be used with the FlexFuel sensor that will automatically compensate for varying ethanol concentrations (and adjusting the AFR, Fueling & Timing accordingly), that would make sense.
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  4. #228
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    Think about the JB4 autotuning without a flex fuel sensor. Now add the fact that the piggy back knows exactly what the ethanol content is to autotune for.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    I'm asking about how Vishnu can responsible tune for varying ethanol concentrations with the PROcede


    SO by just adding an ethanol sensor, any car can be made FlexFuel? I just don't understand how adding the sensor & knowing the specific ethanol concentration, that the PROcede can adjust the tune on the fly. If there are specific PROcede maps that need to be used with the FlexFuel sensor that will automatically compensate for varying ethanol concentrations (and adjusting the AFR, Fueling & Timing accordingly), that would make sense.
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  5. #229
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    Think about the JB4 autotuning without a flex fuel sensor. Now add the fact that the piggy back knows exactly what the ethanol content is to autotune for.
    That's wat I though, just wasn't sure -- The combination of the FlexFuel sensor & E85 supporting firmware on the piggy
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    That's wat I though, just wasn't sure -- The combination of the FlexFuel sensor & E85 supporting firmware on the piggy
    They are not using an autotuning algorithm yet but should be. That combined with a flex fuel sensor would be the most "ideal" setup for someone who changes ethanol mixture around a lot randomly. But personally, I've never seen the value in the flex fuel sensor given the cost and install headache. Auto tuning alone gets you 90% of where you want to be.
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  7. #231
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    They are not using an autotuning algorithm yet but should be. Auto tuning alone gets you 90% of where you want to be.
    Yea, cause the PROcede doesn't have the AutoTuning feature like the JB4. But that's good to hear that the sensor can make sure that the car is running safely (proper AFR target, appropriate timing, etc), even tho it isn't maximizing the performance potential.

    Safe Tune > Max Power
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Yea, cause the PROcede doesn't have the AutoTuning feature like the JB4. But that's good to hear that the sensor can make sure that the car is running safely (proper AFR target, appropriate timing, etc), even tho it isn't maximizing the performance potential.

    Safe Tune > Max Power
    But, it can't. There is no rule of thumb for how much boost and timing is safe for a given car, climate, and ethanol mixture. Only auto tuning can determine that.
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  9. #233
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    But, it can't. There is no rule of thumb for how much boost and timing is safe for a given car, climate, and ethanol mixture. Only auto tuning can determine that.
    SO then we're back to my original question. Does anybody 100% know how the PROcede is tuning for varying ethanol concentrations (adjusting the AFR, timing, boost, fueling, etc etc) when combined with the FlexFuel sensor???

    Bigdnno believes it's the firmware, but there is no AutoTuning (so the tune cannot self adjust for varying ethanol concentrations) feature, only "shelf" maps & that a user can tweak to their car to achieve optimal performance.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
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    Now its back to $595...what the hell it was $395 an hour ago???
    Add it to your cart and you'll see the $395 price.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    SO then we're back to my original question. Does anybody 100% know how the PROcede is tuning for varying ethanol concentrations (adjusting the AFR, timing, boost, fueling, etc etc) when combined with the FlexFuel sensor???

    Bigdnno believes it's the firmware, but there is no AutoTuning (so the tune cannot self adjust for varying ethanol concentrations) feature, only "shelf" maps & that a user can tweak to their car to achieve optimal performance.
    Shiv mentioned it transitions between maps, similar to map 1->4 transition via meth. Don't know if it uses a separate user table of simply uses an offset map. In ether event, it does some linear transition IIRC.
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    Okay, cause that probably works great when you're running straight pump gas (93/91) & then going to straight E85 (which would be like going from off to on meth), but what happens when you run E60 or some awkward in between blend?
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  13. #237
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Okay, cause that probably works great when you're running straight pump gas (93/91) & then going to straight E85 (which would be like going from off to on meth), but what happens when you run E60 or some awkward in between blend?
    Evos do the same thing from the factory. Evo 8 has 2 octane tables and Evo 9 and 10 have 3 octane tables. As the ecu detects knock it can extrapolate which table is best same with increased air flow or cooler air. So the ghost is prob correct that the tune reverts to predetermined maps based on ethanol content. At least that's what I'm guessing
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    I'm asking about how Vishnu can responsible tune for varying ethanol concentrations with the PROcede


    SO by just adding an ethanol sensor, any car can be made FlexFuel? I just don't understand how adding the sensor & knowing the specific ethanol concentration, that the PROcede can adjust the tune on the fly. If there are specific PROcede maps that need to be used with the FlexFuel sensor that will automatically compensate for varying ethanol concentrations (and adjusting the AFR, Fueling & Timing accordingly), that would make sense.
    I am not entirely sure what kind of horsepower I would expect to gain running E85 on other tunes. But, I can provide some data. My car dynoed at 259whp stock (AWD), then, on the same dyno, 400whp after the flex fuel kit was installed. I only changed my intake, so far, to lower the stress on the turbos. This is with the turbochargers on reduced boost, however. My clutch is slipping, so, I did not want to be making far more torque than the clutch could handle. I will fully "complete" the tune on the intended boost target once I get a new clutch.

    http://www.procedetuning.com/BMW/n54...-19/index.html

    I know it's Vishnu's site, and this forum is very much majority against it, so, I am sure you will find some problems with what is being said. Perhaps you can sift through it and find some meaningful information. A lot of what is going on with many of these tunes goes over my head. I would love to learn more.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    Evos do the same thing from the factory. Evo 8 has 2 octane tables and Evo 9 and 10 have 3 octane tables. As the ecu detects knock it can extrapolate which table is best same with increased air flow or cooler air. So the ghost is prob correct that the tune reverts to predetermined maps based on ethanol content. At least that's what I'm guessing
    Yea, I mean if the BMW DME functions like that, it'd be epic, but I've got a feeling that it wasn't designed to run on higher than "normal" (~15% max for the Brazilian market) ethanol contents. Especially with the N54's fueling short comings (lack of reliability & maxing out the OEM fuel system fairly easily), I'm just not seeing this platform being OEM-E85 friendly. That's great that the EVO's OEM-DME came pre-calibrated for varied ethanol concentrations, so it def makes the platform more E85-friendly.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ferruccio Click here to enlarge
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    I know it's Vishnu's site, and this forum is very much majority against it, so, I am sure you will find some problems with what is being said. Perhaps you can sift through it and find some meaningful information. A lot of what is going on with many of these tunes goes over my head. I would love to learn more.
    This forum has no problem with Vishnu (or FFTEC) products. 99% of the people that have a problem, it's with Shiv & his business practices. Two complete separate things to take an issue with. I might look into again when I have some time to actually search, but I've never seen Shiv actually explain how it works in-depth on the forums
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  16. #240
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Yea, I mean if the BMW DME functions like that, it'd be epic, but I've got a feeling that it wasn't designed to run on higher than "normal" (~15% max for the Brazilian market) ethanol contents. Especially with the N54's fueling short comings (lack of reliability & maxing out the OEM fuel system fairly easily), I'm just not seeing this platform being OEM-E85 friendly.


    This forum has no problem with Vishnu (or FFTEC) products. 99% of the people that have a problem, it's with Shiv & his business practices. Two complete separate things to take an issue with. I might look into again when I have some time to actually search, but I've never seen Shiv actually explain how it works in-depth on the forums
    It might be a propriety item... although AFAIK, it is the most advanced and best way to run E85 on this platform atm. With Cobb you will flatline and always have to worry about your trims.. so you have to stack tunes. JB4 is good but once again you have to calculate your mixes... This solution is expensive but for someone who wants to run E85 on this platform; it is the premier choice. I would not mind having this item at all w the upgraded pump as it should work like a charm but the turnaround time on the flash is killing me.
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  17. #241
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
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    It might be a propriety item... although AFAIK, it is the most advanced and best way to run E85 on this platform atm.
    I'll def give you that, I mean E85 did wonders with my COBB ProTune (428 WHP / 460 WTQ with 158 / 170 WTQ delta over stock tune), but I might be switching to a more "traditional" Race Gas ProTune becasue I'm sick of the guessing game with E85/ethanol concentrations when blending. I just wanna know if he's responsible tuning for the in-between ethanol concentrations & how the PROcede is adjusting for the E85 blends (tuning for straight pump & straight E85 isn't the issue).
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Okay, cause that probably works great when you're running straight pump gas (93/91) & then going to straight E85 (which would be like going from off to on meth), but what happens when you run E60 or some awkward in between blend?
    The Haltech is basically a two map system. Adrian has added logic to allow one map to act as a low map and the other as a high map, where some variable determines to what degree you are low or high. In the case of their methanol kit, the frequency of the methanol flow sensor is used to do the merging. So say a 40% methanol flow would produce a boost target that is 40% between map 1 and map 2. Their old autotuning map used to work the same way, but somewhere along the line the logic got lost in the shuffle. It seems they have a problem keeping multiple independent learning systems going as we do with the JB4. Regardless, getting back to the flex fuel sensor, they have simply taken the easy way out and replaced methanol flow with ethanol percentage. So a 40% ethanol content now gives you a value 40% between map 1 and 2. They've approximated where they think a 85% ethanol car should run boost / timing / afr wise and the same for a 0% ethanol. And you just average between their preset tuning maps.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    they have simply taken the easy way out and replaced methanol flow with ethanol percentage. So a 40% ethanol content now gives you a value 40% between map 1 and 2. They've approximated where they think a 85% ethanol car should run boost / timing / afr wise and the same for a 0% ethanol. And you just average between their preset tuning maps.
    Thanks a lot Terry for clearing that up. My next guess is if you're gonna run their FlexFuel setup, it becomes mandatory to get a flash (whether it's the Vishnu or a COBB base map) to keep your fuel trims in check. It's a real shame that their tuning is so dependent on methanol floods to create ludicrous HP numbers that normal users cannot achieve.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    This forum has no problem with Vishnu (or FFTEC) products. 99% of the people that have a problem, it's with Shiv & his business practices. Two complete separate things to take an issue with.
    This.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    This forum has no problem with Vishnu (or FFTEC) products. 99% of the people that have a problem, it's with Shiv & his business practices. Two complete separate things to take an issue with. I might look into again when I have some time to actually search, but I've never seen Shiv actually explain how it works in-depth on the forums
    I take issue with the poorly thought out over priced stuff. If its priced high and delivers high then great, but stuff like the fuel pump really rubbed me the wrong way.

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    I guess I am starting to question the fuel pump stuff. I think I will just DIY a Walbro E85 pump.

    The Flex Fuel kit definitely had me sold, and, man, it is working wonders (so far). The only problems it is giving me are a result of making so much power/torque (clutch slipping, misfires that stopped with new plugs, AWD wheel spin in first gear and second gear on new ~5k mile tires, fuel pump not providing enough flow).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
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    It might be a propriety item... although AFAIK, it is the most advanced and best way to run E85 on this platform atm. With Cobb you will flatline and always have to worry about your trims.. so you have to stack tunes. JB4 is good but once again you have to calculate your mixes... This solution is expensive but for someone who wants to run E85 on this platform; it is the premier choice. I would not mind having this item at all w the upgraded pump as it should work like a charm but the turnaround time on the flash is killing me.
    Just want to point out some false information in this statement.
    1. Flatlining is very much an issue for PROcede, just the same as Cobb. Jb4 + Flash is the only Tune configuration currently that appears to have a fix for this.
    2. Fuel trims are not an issue for Cobb, and do not require constant monitoring of fuel trims. Those running a piggyback with no flash are the only ones that should be concerned. For Cobb, the DME's generious +/- 34% fuel trims combined with the fuel scalar to adjust for fuel density, it can very easily absord differences in ethanol content. For example, I have E48 in my tank atm, and with NO adjustment to the fuel scalar. I see LTFT's around mid 20's. All i need to do is set the Fuel scalar to account for E48, and it would easily absord more or less E85 content, there is PLENTY of headroom.

    The only advantage the Procede has over Cobb is the adjustment of the tune aggression to the varying levels of Ethanol, namely timing aggression.
    2007 BMW 335i 6MT / Alpine Weiss
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  24. #248
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    Just want to point out some false information in this statement.
    1. Flatlining is very much an issue for PROcede, just the same as Cobb. Jb4 + Flash is the only Tune configuration currently that appears to have a fix for this.
    2. Fuel trims are not an issue for Cobb, and do not require constant monitoring of fuel trims. Those running a piggyback with no flash are the only ones that should be concerned. For Cobb, the DME's generious +/- 34% fuel trims combined with the fuel scalar to adjust for fuel density, it can very easily absord differences in ethanol content. For example, I have E48 in my tank atm, and with NO adjustment to the fuel scalar. I see LTFT's around mid 20's. All i need to do is set the Fuel scalar to account for E48, and it would easily absord more or less E85 content, there is PLENTY of headroom.

    The only advantage the Procede has over Cobb is the adjustment of the tune aggression to the varying levels of Ethanol, namely timing aggression.

    The last sentence sells this product; trust me...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
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    The last sentence sells this product; trust me...
    Depends on the situation, for me i have been tuned to a specific ethanol content and have no problem mixing the two fuels, manually checking the ethanol % of the E85, and logging the car afterwards to be sure its running correctly. E85 is about a 40 minute drive for me, so its not like i deal with this on a daily basis. I rarely run E85.

    I also have no interest in strapping an Atari ontop of my playstation 3.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ferruccio Click here to enlarge
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    259whp stock (AWD), then, on the same dyno, 400whp after the flex fuel kit was installed. I only changed my intake, so far, to lower the stress on the turbos.
    your telling us, your hp went 259-400 with tune, e85 and air filters, on "reduced boost?"

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