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  1. #151
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    Haha, holy $#@! this could be funny. Potentially the best running Vishnu ST cars will have nothing to with Shiv.
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  2. #152
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Haha, holy $#@! this could be funny. Potentially the best running Vishnu ST cars will have nothing to with Shiv.
    N54 irony is awesome.

  3. #153
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    mine will have nothing to do with FFTEC though Click here to enlarge completely custom
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

  4. #154
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    mine will have nothing to do with FFTEC though Click here to enlarge completely custom
    Interesting... How is the O2 sensor placement going to handled? To me, that's potentially the source of these misfires.
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  5. #155
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    No I want to focus on more important things with it like angel eye development and BMS license plate frame design. Click here to enlarge
    Bahahaha.Click here to enlarge

  6. #156
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Interesting... How is the O2 sensor placement going to handled? To me, that's potentially the source of these misfires.
    Still hammering that out. Im at work in alaska now. With the way this plan looks now, ill get the car to the shop that weve been talking to right around or before Jan1 and when i know the exact details, there will not be any hiding or secrecy at all.
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

  7. #157
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    Still hammering that out. Im at work in alaska now. With the way this plan looks now, ill get the car to the shop that weve been talking to right around or before Jan1 and when i know the exact details, there will not be any hiding or secrecy at all.
    IIRC Shiv put the O2 sensors in the primaries of the mani pre-turbo and the N54(like a lot of engines) uses the O2 sensors as part of the misfire detection system. I'm thinking because the sensors are only really seeing exhaust gas from one cylinder of each bank it's thinking there i a misfire.

    Let's just say at x degrees of crank rotation it expects to see x AFR becuase cylinder x would've just fired, however it sees y AFRs and it thinks something's wrong in cylinder x.

    Could be something to keep in mind.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  8. #158
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    This is getting interesting. This is what I've been waiting on a ST kit tuned by someone other than shiv. Popcorn ready Click here to enlarge
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


  9. #159
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    IIRC Shiv put the O2 sensors in the primaries of the mani pre-turbo and the N54(like a lot of engines) uses the O2 sensors as part of the misfire detection system. I'm thinking because the sensors are only really seeing exhaust gas from one cylinder of each bank it's thinking there i a misfire.

    Let's just say at x degrees of crank rotation it expects to see x AFR becuase cylinder x would've just fired, however it sees y AFRs and it thinks something's wrong in cylinder x.

    Could be something to keep in mind.
    I think you may be on to something. Crank offset could induce misfires so this would not be all that different in that case.

  10. #160
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    IIRC Shiv put the O2 sensors in the primaries of the mani pre-turbo and the N54(like a lot of engines) uses the O2 sensors as part of the misfire detection system. I'm thinking because the sensors are only really seeing exhaust gas from one cylinder of each bank it's thinking there i a misfire.

    Let's just say at x degrees of crank rotation it expects to see x AFR becuase cylinder x would've just fired, however it sees y AFRs and it thinks something's wrong in cylinder x.

    Could be something to keep in mind.
    I can tell you with certainty that AFR isn't part of the equation. It does have to do with the CPS sensor and the DME monitoring the speed of the crankshaft for sudden slow downs (which would make the DME think there was a misfire). What else is part of that equation I don't know but I've had AFR vary from 11 to 12.5 anywhere in that range and stay solid on both banks with trims at near zero and it'd still happen with misfire detection turned on. Its not his o2 sensor placement as it happens with o2 sensors post turbo as well.
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #161
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    IIRC Shiv put the O2 sensors in the primaries of the mani pre-turbo and the N54(like a lot of engines) uses the O2 sensors as part of the misfire detection system. I'm thinking because the sensors are only really seeing exhaust gas from one cylinder of each bank it's thinking there i a misfire.

    Let's just say at x degrees of crank rotation it expects to see x AFR becuase cylinder x would've just fired, however it sees y AFRs and it thinks something's wrong in cylinder x.

    Could be something to keep in mind.
    Hmm. A good friend of mine who is a very well known tuner/mechanic/drag racer in the Ford/Supra/Subaru world over here in Orlando suggested that the O2 placement might be causing some issues. He was concerned with the fact that there was an extender for the O2 and that the O2 wasn't directly in the path of the exhaust. He thinks that will cause the O2 to not read properly and that it could foul much quicker as it is not seeing exhaust flow to clean it.

  12. #162
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    IIRC Shiv put the O2 sensors in the primaries of the mani pre-turbo and the N54(like a lot of engines) uses the O2 sensors as part of the misfire detection system. I'm thinking because the sensors are only really seeing exhaust gas from one cylinder of each bank it's thinking there i a misfire.

    Let's just say at x degrees of crank rotation it expects to see x AFR becuase cylinder x would've just fired, however it sees y AFRs and it thinks something's wrong in cylinder x.

    Could be something to keep in mind.
    The FFTEC manifold merges from 3 into 1 on each bank, with the o2 sensor on single pipe - so it sees afr from all 3 cylinders per bank.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

    Click here to enlarge

  13. #163
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    The FFTEC manifold merges from 3 into 1 on each bank, with the o2 sensor on single pipe - so it sees afr from all 3 cylinders per bank.
    OK, i thought it was placed in the 2 and 4 primaries.
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  14. #164
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    5 out of 5 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    My car has this misfire issue as well, it is currently taken apart because I'm replacing the lifters to see if there is a possibility that one is binding on cyl6. (unfortunately my work schedule isn't leaving me much time to work on the car at the moment)

    If any of the ST guys want to run their cars to redline and see what it should feel like without going into limp mode, reset your adaptations and while the car is running in open loop you will not get a misfire or limp....as soon as it goes back to running closed loop all of your problems will return.

    This has to be the most frustrating problem pertaining to the N54 and I'm about ready to throw in the towel.

    If anyone is interested in ST car that isn't running properly and they feel like they can fix it shoot me an offer Click here to enlarge I bought the car and turbo kit mainly to have fun at shift sector. I didn't want a single turbo on my 335 AT so I bought another 335 with a MT and put the turbo on over the next couple of days so that it would be ready for the race and unfortunately it was not because of the misfire issue. I don't need two 335's.

  15. #165
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tmo335tt Click here to enlarge
    If anyone is interested in ST car that isn't running properly and they feel like they can fix it shoot me an offer
    So that's officially 3 for sale now? Damn, this is getting crazy.

  16. #166
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    Just a thought:

    In vast majority of cars the misfire detection is based upon "sudden" crank slowdown making the DME think combustion was incomplete (i.e. misfired). I think it may be possible that a sudden change in boost (a sudden drop) where the crank would suddenly slow down a bit under WOT (and anything associated to it) may be at fault here which trips the DME's misfire threshold. With heat build-up in the high RPM range on higher gears this may be a possibility and something I haven't considered before.

    EDIT: What sort of throws off the above theory is that the misfire is ALWAYS registered against bank2, always!
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 12-10-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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  17. #167
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by amclint Click here to enlarge

    A workaround is only a solution to a manager type, lol

    +1
    Click here to enlarge
    997.1 tt
    Kline 200cell exhaust
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    Cobb E85 custom stage3 tune by Mitch
    ID1000 injectors
    Sachs stage 2.5 clutch

  18. #168
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    Sub'd ... and baller with two 335's , ditch both and get a 911 or GTR !
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
    Current - 16 Jeep Wrangler - Few Mods
    Looking for a n54 project e90/e82

  19. #169
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    Sub'd ... and baller with two 335's , ditch both and get a 911 or GTR !

    You read my mind

  20. #170
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tmo335tt Click here to enlarge
    You read my mind
    If you just want to turn the misfire detection off I'll write the Cobb back end flash map for you. It's pretty easy stuff actually. And I need to do the work anyway sooner or later.
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    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

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  21. #171
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Just a thought:

    In vast majority of cars the misfire detection is based upon "sudden" crank slowdown making the DME think combustion was incomplete (i.e. misfired). I think it may be possible that a sudden change in boost (a sudden drop) where the crank would suddenly slow down a bit under WOT (and anything associated to it) may be at fault here which trips the DME's misfire threshold. With heat build-up in the high RPM range on higher gears this may be a possibility and something I haven't considered before.

    EDIT: What sort of throws off the above theory is that the misfire is ALWAYS registered against bank2, always!
    I don't think so. I have seen datalogs of charge pipes blow off mid pull and that's about the biggest sudden drop in boost/power i can imagine and the only code or complaint is the drop in power and associated P30FF and limp mode. No mentions of a misfire.

    If we knew the misfire algorithm/trigger conditions this would be much easier to trace. DAMN YOU SIEMENS!!! lol
    Click here to enlarge
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  22. #172
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    I don't think so. I have seen datalogs of charge pipes blow off mid pull and that's about the biggest sudden drop in boost/power i can imagine and the only code or complaint is the drop in power and associated P30FF and limp mode. No mentions of a misfire.

    If we knew the misfire algorithm/trigger conditions this would be much easier to trace. DAMN YOU SIEMENS!!! lol
    Great point.
    Click here to enlarge

  23. #173
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    I was at the PBIR rental on Sunday and had the opportunity to talk to GeorgiaTech335Coupe and JMARS. Both are cool guys and GeorgiaTech335Coupe was helping me figure out some issues I was having with my car. I can imagine the frustration and hope everything gets figured out for them sooner, rather than later.

  24. #174
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Just a thought:

    In vast majority of cars the misfire detection is based upon "sudden" crank slowdown making the DME think combustion was incomplete (i.e. misfired). I think it may be possible that a sudden change in boost (a sudden drop) where the crank would suddenly slow down a bit under WOT (and anything associated to it) may be at fault here which trips the DME's misfire threshold. With heat build-up in the high RPM range on higher gears this may be a possibility and something I haven't considered before.

    EDIT: What sort of throws off the above theory is that the misfire is ALWAYS registered against bank2, always!
    DZ I saw you were commenting in another thread that Robb@cobb and you have been going back and forth with others on this topic, that the knock sensors aren't the issue and that it's something internal to the DME that seems to be the cause. I tend to believe this after all other relevant troubleshoot steps have been taken (put stock plugs/coils/etc back in, try different tune etc).

    I've read around some other platforms and this misfire detection monitor has been around as long as OBD-2 and lots of weird things have set it off for those platforms. Given the N54 is a straight 6 and as a result has an unusually long crank, I would if the torsional vibrations seen at high rpm/power are that much worse that it's showing up in the CPS enough to piss off the DME.

    It could be a zillion different things- non-stock clutch and flywheel, malfunctioning engine accessory causing intermittent crank loads via accessory belt, oil pump vibrations/fluctuations (air bubbles etc) and even just stupid electrical interference somehow disturbing the output of the CPS or the CPS itself could just be bad. Yeesh. Anything that mucks with the CPS signal could cause it but if that were the case, could we not watch/record the CPS signal with a scope and see if it's changing shape when the problem happens?

  25. #175
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    DZ I saw you were commenting in another thread that Robb@cobb and you have been going back and forth with others on this topic, that the knock sensors aren't the issue and that it's something internal to the DME that seems to be the cause. I tend to believe this after all other relevant troubleshoot steps have been taken (put stock plugs/coils/etc back in, try different tune etc).

    I've read around some other platforms and this misfire detection monitor has been around as long as OBD-2 and lots of weird things have set it off for those platforms. Given the N54 is a straight 6 and as a result has an unusually long crank, I would if the torsional vibrations seen at high rpm/power are that much worse that it's showing up in the CPS enough to piss off the DME.

    It could be a zillion different things- non-stock clutch and flywheel, malfunctioning engine accessory causing intermittent crank loads via accessory belt, oil pump vibrations/fluctuations (air bubbles etc) and even just stupid electrical interference somehow disturbing the output of the CPS or the CPS itself could just be bad. Yeesh. Anything that mucks with the CPS signal could cause it but if that were the case, could we not watch/record the CPS signal with a scope and see if it's changing shape when the problem happens?
    I've changed the CPS sensor. Recently with my top end build I've also changed out the oil pump Click here to enlarge CPS is definitely involved but we don't know if there are other things as well until that part of the DME is wide in the open and we know what exactly makes it tick. This is why I very strongly suggest to people with this issue to just turn it off for the time being until that part of the DME is exposed instead of wasting their time/money with the car instead of enjoying the newfound power toys
    Click here to enlarge

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