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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I actually prefer to be a regular member her, not a vendor-- guest vendor or otherwise. Not enough time in the day to wear another vendor hat on another forum. You'll notice that I don't promote our products here. I only respond to things that need response or to people who request response. I believe that was you in this most recent case. If you would rather I not respond to you or anything else on this forum, just say the word. Because frankly, all this drama is getting old and too time consuming.
    That's fine, I'll still take your money.

    Yes, I notice what you do. Shiv, if I would rather you not respond I would make it that way, right? I try very hard to make it so you can get your say as you have been doing regarding your product without paying. Who else does that? A lot of money has been lost by not having a zero tolerance policy on vendors. But, ultimately the users win like they are now, and I'm cool with that. You are following the rules just fine and we have already discussed this several times. This drama? This post is the reality of what happened and it is not like this is anything new or you don't instigate some of it yourself. Take the good with the bad.

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  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by encinitas Click here to enlarge
    Its against my better judgement to post now - but - whatever. Do I really care if the pot is stirred and I get flamed over cars - hardly Click here to enlarge

    IMHO....

    1) I have ran the JB3 and V4. I only had DCI's on JB3, no datalogging or custom maps and I'm 6mt. The JB3 had instant power and was great at times. At others it felt like I was driving another tune. Being new to the whole N54 seen, I was intrigued buy autotuning, and felt like it might offer something for me in terms of consistent power in different temps etc. (My first interest was GIAC with a beta st.2 tune - but, I never got any real response from the guys over there - I guess you need to be an industry VIP?) Anyway. Since I did read a lot of reviews from V4 guys that had switched over from JB3, I thought it might be nice to try it out....for the time being at least....this is a hobby and nobody pays me or actually cares what I drive right? BMS has my money, Vishnu has my money, and after I have purchased my orders - neither has followed up with me to see if I'm happy, what other plans I might have for my car, etc. I understand and get it too. So before everyone congratulates one tuner's customer service over another's, for me, they happened to be roughly equal. Robert at Vishnu, actually went out of his way to ship me the tune in a one day turnaround b/c he knew I was getting DPS installed the day after.

    As a comparison, I work at a hospital and after my car recently had the JB3 installed - I was leaving and my car shook hard and limped. I didn't have my BT set up yet b/c I didn't have a laptop at the time. I walked back into work and posted on N54 what was happening. Terry wrote back " As usual, check codes " He then said sounds like a HPFP or injector. He was right - it was an injector - but, it wasn't the greatest attitude and had zero follow up. I'm a noob - so I guess I was due that though, seriously. I get F-ing annoyed when I'm surfing with noobs so I honestly get it. On a positive note, I later offended him on his forum, I think, and I apologized. He took it really well and said no worries. In that case, maybe he had the right to be more of a dick or to encourage his boys to jump in and take shots.

    So, with Shiv - I was more proactive and seasoned a little bit. He answered my emails and was prompt and respectful when I asked dumb questions. However, I posted my review of both products on an e90 thread and he never bothered to thank me or acknowledge that he was stoked with his tune. Do I care - not really - but I personally am in a field where I have to be concerned about everyone's view of my service to them. I actually got into it to not to get paid a lot (like the tuners did, only speculating obviously) - I knew I wouldn't - but to help people out.

    At anyrate, sorry to digress. I think Shiv should pay to post on this forum. I'm also really happy with AR designs downpipes. I think that Sticky should be easier on him too - he has proved to be a much much better vendor than modbargains.com was for me. Yes, he should pay as well to be a vendor here and post. Do I dislike what Terry or Shiv has done for me? No. Do I think that our community is better off with both of them competing? Yes (aren't the lakers better w/ the celtics and, isn't NY more fun to have around with the Boston rivalry?) Will they both always make money, play off each other, and make better tunes for us consumers because of it? YES. Will they be as rich if the other wasn't around? Probably not, and that is why they both hate each other.

    Personally, I don't know anyone that runs a V4 near me. I have met a guy that I get along great with on this forum and N54 that runs the JB3. He has helped me out a lot and could probably give a $#@! that I run a different tune than him. So, my final point is that is how we as consumers should treat each other.

    Terry, Sticky, Shiv, Andrew, and the others can decided if they want to play well in the sandbox together or not. Personally, I'm out to make my car more fun to drive and meet people that I can learn from and have a hobby in common with.

    Sorry,
    (my spelling, grammar, and, mouth are out of control when I'm off the clock, off the road, and have had a good meal with a few brews)
    You aren't the only one GIAC failed to get back to. Seems they really need to work on that.

    This is a great, well thought out post. We appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

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  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    I think we got to be cautious that this forum does not become like the national enquirer or 60 minutes because it is heading that way. There are far too many threads made with fat question marks after them. Sticky you have assumed the role of being quite the investigator. I think its in your nature though but I also think you do it to gather content on your site.
    I for one would not want a thread I created sitting on a forum that reflected a dyno result which was not a true indication of the product. The competition can take it and use it without explaining the rest. Such a thread already exist on N54tech in regard to the V4 and I would not be surprised if that dyno has been added already.
    The issue is if there are errors or things that need to be explained they should be instead of deleted so people don't wonder what happened. Unfortunately (or fortunately for us) other forums just delete everything without letting you see it. We don't, and even if it is something bad we alow you all to see it and decide for yourselves. We all know this is not a true indication of the product. Considering that the V4 1/4 mile record was posted as front page news we go out of our way to inform the potential and positive but we aren't going to shy away from issues just because they may not be what some want to hear about it. Not like BMS did not take a few bumps and bruises here lately as well, fair is fair.

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  4. #54
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    Sticky, thanks for your reply. Really, nobody seems to give a $#@! on either of the other forums unless somebody is carrying pom poms for terry or shiv.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by encinitas Click here to enlarge
    Sticky, thanks for your reply. Really, nobody seems to give a $#@! on either of the other forums unless somebody is carrying pom poms for terry or shiv.
    Thanks Click here to enlarge I carry pom poms for the users. I have even been stretching so I can do some good moves.

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  6. #56
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    Tuning your car is like choosing a religion. There's only one right way.
    /sarcasm
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSDD Click here to enlarge
    Tuning your car is like choosing a religion. There's only one right way.
    /sarcasm
    Yep, agnostic. That way you just worship a higher power Click here to enlarge

    Haha, get it?

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  8. #58
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I like this forum a lot and I think it will succeed. Why? They banned my friend on e90 for posting an honest opinion. Not sure if I would have gotten banned on Terry's site for my OG post here? It would be great if I wasn't, b/c who knows, I might be back to his tune someday with more knowledge and research. Then again, I might not be, I could go with CPE, or GIAC, still. The point is I don't get butt hurt. Reputations stay with people right? If so, how is E90 helping themselves by banning people that are passionate about their experiences. I'm guessing that If I posted something like this there, I would get warned, at least. Do I care? again, I don't, however, if this is Shiv's home base and I bought his tune....And, I'm I'm a critic ( read - one movie of spielbergs is great and one sucks) obviously, my opinion. But, in the case that I congratulate - I'm considerered one of the boys and in the next, I applaud the other, and, I'm warned or banned (directly or indirectly). That's B.S.

    Shiv you stand a lot more to gain by encouraging e90 to not ban your opponents. Terry, Sticky, same goes to you.)

    BTW.to the guy who criticized me for not emailing Terry directly about my problem. If I was still running his tune at this time; I would definetly would go that route. I now know that it is the best way to go. I bought his tune when I was such a noob that I hadn't read the fine print. Have you read the fineprint on everything you have purchased? Honest mistake then? Seriously, I'm pretty objective - if you don't think so - ie. you can't see the criticisms of myself and both of the tuners, you might not be trying hard enough?? Chow

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by encinitas Click here to enlarge
    Its against my better judgement to post now - but - whatever. Do I really care if the pot is stirred and I get flamed over cars - hardly Click here to enlarge
    I don't recall the event but we support thousands of customers (including shops) with a greatly varying range of familiarity with tuning. At times it can be frustrating trying to help someone find a resolution when there isn't enough information to allow a resolution to take place. Like what the code/freeze frame data is. On occasion those replies can be a bit quipy so I apologize if one rubbed you the wrong way. Click here to enlarge

    On the tuning itself it's unfortunate you weren't able to update the firmware, try the newest stuff, etc, as much has changed for the better. But in the big scheme of things $500-1000 for tuning isn't a lot of money and its easy to switch between the major tunes out. Maybe we'll catch your eye with some future update and you can give us a whirl again.

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I actually prefer to be a regular member her, not a vendor-- guest vendor or otherwise. Not enough time in the day to wear another vendor hat on another forum. You'll notice that I don't promote our products here. I only respond to things that need response or to people who request response. I believe that was you in this most recent case. If you would rather I not respond to you or anything else on this forum, just say the word. Because frankly, all this drama is getting old and too time consuming.
    Exactly... You could be spending that time pillaging the BT gauge cluster activations for more dash commands... Click here to enlarge

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The issue is if there are errors or things that need to be explained they should be instead of deleted so people don't wonder what happened. Unfortunately (or fortunately for us) other forums just delete everything without letting you see it. We don't, and even if it is something bad we alow you all to see it and decide for yourselves. We all know this is not a true indication of the product. Considering that the V4 1/4 mile record was posted as front page news we go out of our way to inform the potential and positive but we aren't going to shy away from issues just because they may not be what some want to hear about it. Not like BMS did not take a few bumps and bruises here lately as well, fair is fair.
    Well said!

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AoshichanX Click here to enlarge
    I came to to this forum after seeing a e90post member recommend "b1mmerb00st" for unbiased information. After reading a few threads here, I would disagree. The information is still biased. It's just uncensored.
    This is a bit of a contradiction. The fact that it is uncensored means any view can be voiced. So how it is biased then when one does not get promoted over another?

    There is a palpable pro Terry/JB bias in many of the posts. Nothing wrong with that. Terry is an extremely nice guy, both approachable and easy going; I know, I've met him in person. On the other hand, Shiv is quite the opposite from my experience: Shiv's personality is an acquired taste to put it mildly. Remember folks, just because one person is affable, well written (easily understood), and communicates often does not mean he is correct. Similarly, simply because a reader cannot understand a post does not mean it's author is purposefully pedantic or condescending.
    This is well said, Shiv's personality is an acquired taste. Personally, I like his style but others don't. Then again, many don't like my style either. I prefer correct over hugs and kisses though.

    Again, there is just as much misinformation here. However, here, at least, the reader is allowed to reach his misinformed conclusion on his own Click here to enlarge

    If you want to learn about tuning...DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. Do not expect a VENDOR who happens to be a TUNER to provide impartial information! There will always be a natural bias...even with statements made in good faith!
    Please show an example. This I would consider misinformation as there is no support for it. The only reason there is a pro-Terry vibe here is Terry was smart, courteous enough to support this forum from day 1. Shiv has not and only uses it to advance his interests for free without any support and that rubs many people the wrong way. Not me though, happy to have them all here for YOUR benefit.

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  13. #63
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    No sweat at all Terry. I just had to speak out b/c I have read too many " Shiv is an A-hole / Terry is the Best" threads lately in regards to customer service. I'm sure that you give almost all of your customers great service b/c I know a few of them. BTW. I will stay interested in how you and Shiv update and improve upon your products. I wish that I had updated your tune. That way my review would count for more. However, speaking as an n54 rookie, I have to say that autotuning is awesome. If I had more knowledge, I probably could have been more able to make the most of your tune. I like the fact that I don't have to put much effort into making the tune work optimally. I know this is hypocritical in a way. (ie. I'm a fan, aspiring enthusiast, and I want my hand held?) Actually, it's more like guided....Would you want a doctor constantly referring to a manual and writing into his peers with pictures of your condition to be able to treat you? For me, autotuning is a little bit of assurance that I'm not gonna kill my car, but, still maximize it's ability safely. Not saying you would kill my car ... but, I would if I tried doing something stupid ... like when I knocked on map seven on 91 when it was 70 ish degrees. My fault obviously by going against your map guides. However, on your site, I have read different accounts of people doing the same thing successfully... Granted, you don't support that behavior, and, tell them to send you in a datalog before trying something like that.

    What's my point. Maybe that Autotuning is the best "put the tune in your car you ballsy fella, and, forget about it because the tune and car will take car of itself without you. Otherwise, you might get more than one noob that likes being able to take the easy route and have Shiv do it for them safely. Maybe with CAN u will change that. Maybe you will make that an option as well as all of your custom stuff and make everyone happy? Who knows, I know you need to do something though, b/c for now, this is great PNP stuff from Shiv.

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    His is issue is with the stupid graphic on your car.
    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    The fact remains that all the major tuners can have discussion here, rather than be banned or posts deleted unless you are the "Holy One". Of course each party is still going to say they have the right info, what did you expect?

    I thought it was common sense that you should make your own decision based on your own gathered information, but you had to come in here and make an ass out of yourself while stating the extremely obvious.
    "Can" is the operative word here. If one Tuner has the time and energy to constantly share, his perspective/explanation will likely be accepted.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is a bit of a contradiction. The fact that it is uncensored means any view can be voiced. So how it is biased then when one does not get promoted over another?
    On a macro level, a lack of censorship may equate to an unbiased forum. However, bias occurs on a micro level too. To see so much debate over arguable basic tuning concepts there can only be one conclusion: at least one party is taking advantage of forum ignorance. And when a forum member "forms his own conclusion," as SlicktopTTZ stated above, based on a tuner's perspective, then bias occurs on a micro level.





    Here is a basic example. If I were a senior and well respected member of this forum and if I were to inform a forum newbie that SlicktopTTZ were an imbecile because of his inability to discern an obviously photoshopped signature, that forum newbie may accept my explanation, and by accepting that explanation, that forum newbie now has an inherent bias.

    In actuality, SlicktopTTZ will likely argue that he simply stated the graphic was stupid, a statement which carried no implications nor assumptions as to whether the picture was photoshopped or otherwise.

    But if SlicktopTTZ were not available to share his perspective...wouldn't most forum members simply accept my explanation instead and move on? After all, my explanation was arguably logical, uncomplicated, and not unreasonable.





    Here is an even further exaggerated example. If I told a forum newbie that by calling the graphic on my car stupid, SlicktopTTZ had committed slander because what he stated was offensive to me and available to the public.

    Certainly on its face, the statement seems reasonable. In actuality, it would not be slander, it would be libel since it was written. And for any level of defamation to occur, there must also be some publication + negligence/malicious intent + I would have to suffer some form of damages as a result of the defamatory statement.
    Last edited by AoshichanX; 07-23-2010 at 11:31 PM.
    meow~ :ashamed0002:
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #65
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    I hate all car forums. too moderated or not moderated enough... it's all $#@!.

  16. #66
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    ^ You are way over analyzing things and making things more complicated than they are for some reason.

    It is as simple as this forum does have the bias of the other and is far more open and lenient. You are treated like an adult and are expected to come to your own conclusion. If you come to conclusions based on how many posts a tuner makes, I can't help you. I have never seen someone say, "Oh, this guy makes more posts than the other he is likely correct." That is shallow, superficial, and not a pattern I recommend falling into.

    You still have yet to provide an example of this bias you are talking about. I see a lot of text, little substance...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    I hate all car forums.
    Check out the soccer babes thread, you may change your mind.

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    post this over "there" and see how unbiased it is Click here to enlarge

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-PROCede-sucks!!!!!

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Update for those who care: The owner of the car (jacky) reported various o2 sensor related codes last week. Upon my suggestion, he cleared the codes and removed the Procede. And the codes came back shortly thereafter. So he is taking the car to the dealership to get it resolved under warranty. I'm sure he'll hit the dyno again after it is resolved.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Update for those who care: The owner of the car (jacky) reported various o2 sensor related codes last week. Upon my suggestion, he cleared the codes and removed the Procede. And the codes came back shortly thereafter. So he is taking the car to the dealership to get it resolved under warranty. I'm sure he'll hit the dyno again after it is resolved.
    Thanks for the update.

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    Tuner wars continue. I chose my tune in 4/2007 and never looked back. My earliest customer service experience, the tuner emailed me to help with the initial install, on the weekend in 2007. The latest support request, I got a direct call on my cell phone about a meth kit question I submitted on their site.

    Go figure.

    My initial trip to a local dyno shop proved to me that the tune was putting down the right numbers for the mods....right in line with expectations based on other customers and the tuner...

    I don't see a conspiracy as the original title of this thread would seem to suggest.
    Last edited by scottp999; 07-24-2010 at 07:59 PM.
    Rob Beck Turbos, PROcede Rev. 3, Procede Fueling Flash (via OpenFlash Tablet), PPS Methanol System (DO12/Aquamist Flow Sensor), DCI, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance Suspension, Autobahn Exotics Exhaust, Helix FMIC, AR Design Downpipes, BSH Catch Can, Forge Diverter Valves, P3cars Vent Boost Gauge, Alufelgen CSL Reps, Lux 5.1 H8 Angel Eyes, HPB HID Fogs, LTBMW M3 Side Skirts, BMW M3 Rear Spoiler, BMW Front Aero Lip, BMW Pedal Kit, BMW M Shift Knob, Autotecknic Matte Black Grilles.

  22. #72
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by scottp999 Click here to enlarge
    Tuner wars continue. I chose my tune in 4/2007 and never looked back. My earliest customer service experience, the tuner emailed me to help with the initial install, on the weekend in 2007. The latest suppert request, I got a direct call on my cell phone about a meth kit question I submitted on their site.

    Go figure.

    My initial trip to a local dyno shop proved to me that the tune was putting down the right numbers for the mods....right in line with expectations based on other customers and the tuner...

    I don't see a conspiracy as the original title of this thread would seem to suggest.
    When someone makes a thread that contains potentially negative info about a vendor and then it disappears without any explanation, it leads to questions.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    When someone makes a thread that contains potentially negative info about a vendor and then it disappears without any explanation, it leads to questions.
    It's like blood in the water for the sharks. I get it.

    Going to go enjoy the car now.
    Rob Beck Turbos, PROcede Rev. 3, Procede Fueling Flash (via OpenFlash Tablet), PPS Methanol System (DO12/Aquamist Flow Sensor), DCI, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance Suspension, Autobahn Exotics Exhaust, Helix FMIC, AR Design Downpipes, BSH Catch Can, Forge Diverter Valves, P3cars Vent Boost Gauge, Alufelgen CSL Reps, Lux 5.1 H8 Angel Eyes, HPB HID Fogs, LTBMW M3 Side Skirts, BMW M3 Rear Spoiler, BMW Front Aero Lip, BMW Pedal Kit, BMW M Shift Knob, Autotecknic Matte Black Grilles.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by scottp999 Click here to enlarge
    It's like blood in the water for the sharks. I get it.

    Going to go enjoy the car now.
    The sharks are the ones who ate the thread, we are just the innocent bystanders.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    moderation is necessary, if you think otherwise your forum will slowly fall into disarray and die. if you support straight up misleading threads like you seem to do, it's far worse a place than that which removes those genuinely misleading threads. in this case there was something wrong with the guys car and the dyno operator. there is just nothing good that could come from keeping it active.

    "Weak V4 dyno numbers being covered up", no: misleading information being rightfully removed is more like it. your thread title is even more misleading.. this site really is the national inquirer of n54-based forums
    Last edited by jpsimon; 07-24-2010 at 08:23 PM.

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