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Thread: Cobb Table Descriptions and Tuning Tips

              
   
  1. #51
    BrenM3 is offline 407.7whp N/A
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    The EVOX ECU flatlines timing JUST like the N54 when you hit an internal torque target calculation. This also makes sense with higher gear vs. lower gear corrections. I would start there if I were Cobb Click here to enlarge

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    Ha, some talk way over my head. I just tweaked the load tables, built a linear map but with boost ramping up quicker like the stock map. I love it over both the st and lt
    2015 - m4 or 991 S or Cayman - hopefully
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp - @ 17 psi and 6,000 rpms)
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

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    Let's talk about the 335i PID boost control..
    In the datalog is WGDC Bank 1&2 the final wgdc value?

    Is the final wgdc value calculated:

    WGDC base x PID x WGDC adder?

    Is 57% WGDC After PID equivalent to 100% closed wastegate?
    335XI 6AT 11.87 @ 118mph

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  5. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    Is 57% WGDC After PID equivalent to 100% closed wastegate?
    Yes
    2007 BMW 335i 6MT / Alpine Weiss
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    I've noticed in my logs even though PID is 57% The wastegate duty cycle for bank one could be anywhere between 65 to 75%.. That's why I'm wondering what wgdc bank 1 &2 represent?
    335XI 6AT 11.87 @ 118mph

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    I've noticed in my logs even though PID is 57% The wastegate duty cycle for bank one could be anywhere between 65 to 75%.. That's why I'm wondering what wgdc bank 1 &2 represent?
    I used to ask these questions too, but never got answers. Good luck, lol.
    2007 BMW 335i 6MT / Alpine Weiss
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    Josh@Cobb is offline Supporting Vendor
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    From our Tuning Guide (Help in the Help menu of ATR):

    Wastegate Duty Base – Base percentage of wastegate solenoid duty cycle (0 to 100%).
    Wastegate Duty After PID – Percentage wastegate solenoid duty cycle after system PID control (0 to 100%).
    Wastegate Duty Bank 1-2 % - Percentage of actual wastegate solenoid duty cycle at bank 1 (0 to 100%).

    WG Base is what the DME is interpolating from the WGDC (Base) table. Then the PID works on that percentage to keep it happy. Then you have your WGDC adders and other compensations/dynamics which get you to your actual DC at each WG (WG Duty Bank 1-2).
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    57% after PID is just the maximum setpoint inATR. The applied DC (what’s sent to the solenoid) is bank X channel whichcan be more than 57%. A 100% closed WG has multiple factors including:backpressure, pump vacuum, actuator starting point (loose/tight).

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    I having issues dialing in the boost on my car and feel like I'm "chasing my tail"...

    Sometimes my car will over boost and wgdc after PID will have a higher value than wgdc base... Any help with this?
    335XI 6AT 11.87 @ 118mph

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    I having issues dialing in the boost on my car and feel like I'm "chasing my tail"...

    Sometimes my car will over boost and wgdc after PID will have a higher value than wgdc base... Any help with this?
    Are you getting oscillations? Overboosts, underboosts, overboosts?
    2007 BMW 335i 6MT / Alpine Weiss
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    Are you getting oscillations? Overboosts, underboosts, overboosts?
    All of them.. Car spools up really strong (over shoots), then oscillates, then undershoots..
    If the boost error is simply -0.10psi the car pulls timing..!! drives me insane..!!

    Do you guys have any info on adjusting the actuator?
    335XI 6AT 11.87 @ 118mph

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    All of them.. Car spools up really strong (over shoots), then oscillates, then undershoots..
    If the boost error is simply -0.10psi the car pulls timing..!! drives me insane..!!

    Do you guys have any info on adjusting the actuator?
    I haven’t played much with ATR PID, but maybe read some basics on PID tuning. I would start by dropping p and even I factor by 50%... you have to use the multiplier (m) function for the p-factor due to the table decimal places. And if your base is too high/low then you have to rely too much on PID… so correlating base and PID WGDC and adjust accordingly. Its not so easy, but you want to shoot for minor PID add… subtracting PID can lead to torque issues, as you mentioned. For D-factor its easier just to adjust the multipler table. For D too high and you oscillate during the pull, but too low you’ll wonder farther from the setpoint. P and secondarily I will directly relate to oscillations at full spool.

    If you are regularly subtracting PID, then maybe also start with base table reduced to 80% (m=0.8)… but depends on how much PID is taking out.

    It’s very difficult to eliminate overshoot completely and keep fast response during spool. This is more apparent when you have already built partial boost (stepped throttle), or holding boost during a shift (MT).

    again some maps are better then others with timing pulls. One thing I meant to try but haven't is globally increase the load to torque limit table. There's other tables that look interesting also in this area. But these don't change by much between maps, so I think its something we don't have access to.

    Its a pain to experiment when many of the tables don't make much sense, could be labeled wrong, or alters something completely unexpected.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
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    I haven’t played much with ATR PID, but maybe read some basics on PID tuning. I would start by dropping p and even I factor by 50%... you have to use the multiplier (m) function for the p-factor due to the table decimal places. And if your base is too high/low then you have to rely too much on PID… so correlating base and PID WGDC and adjust accordingly. Its not so easy, but you want to shoot for minor PID add… subtracting PID can lead to torque issues, as you mentioned. For D-factor its easier just to adjust the multipler table. For D too high and you oscillate during the pull, but too low you’ll wonder farther from the setpoint. P and secondarily I will directly relate to oscillations at full spool.

    If you are regularly subtracting PID, then maybe also start with base table reduced to 80% (m=0.8)… but depends on how much PID is taking out.

    It’s very difficult to eliminate overshoot completely and keep fast response during spool. This is more apparent when you have already built partial boost (stepped throttle), or holding boost during a shift (MT).

    again some maps are better then others with timing pulls. One thing I meant to try but haven't is globally increase the load to torque limit table. There's other tables that look interesting also in this area. But these don't change by much between maps, so I think its something we don't have access to.

    Its a pain to experiment when many of the tables don't make much sense, could be labeled wrong, or alters something completely unexpected.
    I agree as a lot of the tables defined in the N54 that are either not describled well in the Help file in ATR or NOT AT ALL.

    For the PID tuning, I took at left turn and ZEROED all of the PID tables out.. Then rescaled WGDC base table headers to read up to 400 from 333. Then adjusted the table to try and get req boost as close to act boost and got pretty close in the spool but then oscilated by itself... I'm starting to think I should rescale the boost setpont factor to give more resolution and fine tune.

    Part of me says buy the JB4 for boost control and the other part of me says don't give up with the oem boost control in ATR...
    335XI 6AT 11.87 @ 118mph

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    I agree as a lot of the tables defined in the N54 that are either not describled well in the Help file in ATR or NOT AT ALL.

    For the PID tuning, I took at left turn and ZEROED all of the PID tables out.. Then rescaled WGDC base table headers to read up to 400 from 333. Then adjusted the table to try and get req boost as close to act boost and got pretty close in the spool but then oscilated by itself... I'm starting to think I should rescale the boost setpont factor to give more resolution and fine tune.

    Part of me says buy the JB4 for boost control and the other part of me says don't give up with the oem boost control in ATR...
    A. Spend some time figuring it out on your own, cost $0 and bump up your self esteem because this further proves your genius.
    B. Buy a JB4, $500, you gave up, you deserve to die.
    C. Pay $180 for a PTF Protune, you dont deserve to die, but you still gave up... loser.

    Seriously though, just get a protune if you're tired of dealing with it, its cheaper than a JB4.
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    I've spent a lot of time with it.. I'm goign to run a vacuum test on the wastegates to make sure they open and close smoothly. Maybe there is a hardware issue. I've tuned MANY other platforms with PID boost control and have NEVER had this much trouble dialing in the boost. All other cars I've tuned didnlt bring timing down to -3.75 deg of timing if the car over boost by 1/10th of a psi LOL
    335XI 6AT 11.87 @ 118mph

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    I've spent a lot of time with it.. I'm goign to run a vacuum test on the wastegates to make sure they open and close smoothly. Maybe there is a hardware issue. I've tuned MANY other platforms with PID boost control and have NEVER had this much trouble dialing in the boost. All other cars I've tuned didnlt bring timing down to -3.75 deg of timing if the car over boost by 1/10th of a psi LOL
    IMO it's better to attack boost issues through the WGDC base table and then adjust adders rather than through the PID tables. For me, things just get muddy when $#@!ing with the PID values.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    The EVOX ECU flatlines timing JUST like the N54 when you hit an internal torque target calculation. This also makes sense with higher gear vs. lower gear corrections. I would start there if I were Cobb Click here to enlarge
    I would agree but it impacts piggybacks on the stock tune as well which in theory should not realize the power its making. Then again maybe the DME does, who knows.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    Part of me says buy the JB4 for boost control and the other part of me says don't give up with the oem boost control in ATR...
    The JB4 ISO runs boost better and is a lot more flexible. For starters it will set its base wastegate duty cycle on a learning process that will change itself as needed as conditions change. Plus no one has to know it's running the show. Just tell your friends its only a boost gauge. Click here to enlarge
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    Josh@Cobb is offline Supporting Vendor
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    I agree as a lot of the tables defined in the N54 that are either not describled well in the Help file in ATR or NOT AT ALL.

    For the PID tuning, I took at left turn and ZEROED all of the PID tables out.. Then rescaled WGDC base table headers to read up to 400 from 333. Then adjusted the table to try and get req boost as close to act boost and got pretty close in the spool but then oscilated by itself... I'm starting to think I should rescale the boost setpont factor to give more resolution and fine tune.

    Part of me says buy the JB4 for boost control and the other part of me says don't give up with the oem boost control in ATR...
    If there are tables that aren't explained, or you feel aren't explained very well, shoot me a PM or email with their names. We're always trying to make our product better, so any feedback is always appreciated. I'll try to help you out with a description now, but more importantly, we can add it to our next tuning guide for everyone to have better understanding. Sometimes it's hard for engineers and calibrators to write something that makes sense to everyone, but that's what we try to do with every revision. I'm always happy to help if I can.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
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    If there are tables that aren't explained, or you feel aren't explained very well, shoot me a PM or email with their names. We're always trying to make our product better, so any feedback is always appreciated. I'll try to help you out with a description now, but more importantly, we can add it to our next tuning guide for everyone to have better understanding. Sometimes it's hard for engineers and calibrators to write something that makes sense to everyone, but that's what we try to do with every revision. I'm always happy to help if I can.
    josh.dankel@cobbtuning.com
    Josh, i think everyone can agree that the thing we as a community are most confounded by is the boost control system. Everyone gets that theoretically more load = more boost but it obviously isn't that simple when it comes to fine tuning. If a simple boost control walkthrough could be established to get us started(i.e. if x is happening then begin by adjusting table y) that would be great.
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    I'm still very fuzzy on how to get the DME to increase requested boost. Changing requested load seems to have no effect.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    I'm still very fuzzy on how to get the DME to increase requested boost. Changing requested load seems to have no effect.
    The main thing that people seem to get hung up on is boost. A lot of people have a hard time wrapping there head around this, but you just have to remember that this car has no actual boost targeting. Yes you can increase boost, but the DME is ultimately only trying to achieve a load. If it feels it's doing an adequate job with a certain boost, it's not going to make any more.

    That being said, there are ways to increase boost (obviously since we are all making more than stock). I'll see what I can do to come up with a more specific guideline for the boost system. If you guys haven't looked at the newest revision of the tuning guide, I would give it a read (Version 4.03 with our new logo). We have added some new sections/info with the hope it would clear some things up. I'll make it a point to re-visit the boost system and see if Jason and I can come up with a flow chart or something like that to help everyone see what the DME is trying to do.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
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    If there are tables that aren't explained, or you feel aren't explained very well, shoot me a PM or email with their names. We're always trying to make our product better, so any feedback is always appreciated. I'll try to help you out with a description now, but more importantly, we can add it to our next tuning guide for everyone to have better understanding. Sometimes it's hard for engineers and calibrators to write something that makes sense to everyone, but that's what we try to do with every revision. I'm always happy to help if I can.
    josh.dankel@cobbtuning.com
    Thanks for the offering your help. Below are a couple tables… could you give some brief explanation and potentially how the values/factors correlate.

    -WGDC to WGDC Position

    -Cylinder Temp Comp table sets including weight factor

    -Requested Torque (Driver) What’s the function of tables with “Driver” label?

    -Requested Torque Mon. Factor A & B

    I have more questions, but this is a good start. Thanks much!

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    I quite honestly do not see why people think boost is so difficult to dial in on ATR. I had no issues dialing in boost for my insanely tight wastegates. Log WGDC base MAF WGDC make the appropriate changes based on TPS%. I had turbos on both sides of the sprctrum and neither were what I consider difficult to work with.

    I even walked @enrita through dialing in load/boost and his resulting map turned out fine.

    Do you guys want a boost control 101 post? I can do that if theres interest.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
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    The main thing that people seem to get hung up on is boost. A lot of people have a hard time wrapping there head around this, but you just have to remember that this car has no actual boost targeting. Yes you can increase boost, but the DME is ultimately only trying to achieve a load. If it feels it's doing an adequate job with a certain boost, it's not going to make any more.

    That being said, there are ways to increase boost (obviously since we are all making more than stock). I'll see what I can do to come up with a more specific guideline for the boost system. If you guys haven't looked at the newest revision of the tuning guide, I would give it a read (Version 4.03 with our new logo). We have added some new sections/info with the hope it would clear some things up. I'll make it a point to re-visit the boost system and see if Jason and I can come up with a flow chart or something like that to help everyone see what the DME is trying to do.
    People need to realize load at 3000 rpm won't result in the same boost at 6000 rpm. E.g. if you want less taper you increase load and WGDC base with a higher cap (not recommended, just saying)

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