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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    Wow, nice to see a Cobb representative answering ATR-related questions !

    To Josh@Cobb: I have one problem, after installing my RB turbos, I can't seem to be able to tune out overboost at very low boost (0-2psi boost target, for example when driving in town and accelerating at part throttle from 1600 to 2500RPM). This causes quite severe throttle closures (70%->18-20%) and the car does not deliver all the low-end punch that it would be capable of if there wasn't for the throttle closures.

    The WGDC Base table values are already at 0 for those MAF and Boost Setpoint Factor values (yet the total WGDC is semnificative - values like 15%), and I still get 1-3 psi of constant overboost (not spikes). Is there a way to further lower the WGDC (like using negative values in the table) ? The adder tables do not effect that area of the WGDC table.

    Thanks !
    @cstavaru , is this in the actual wgdc on bank1/2 or does it show up in the wgdc base or after pid channels?
    Click here to enlarge

  2. #27
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    It would be great to define the following tables for the N54:

    Knock Threshold
    Ignition Timing Compensation (AT Shift Retard)
    Ignition Timing Compensation (Boost Error)



  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
    It would be great to define the following tables for the N54:

    Knock Threshold
    Ignition Timing Compensation (AT Shift Retard)
    Ignition Timing Compensation (Boost Error)




    Are these new tables? Haven't touched ATR in months and I don't recall seeing them anywhere, at least on IJE0S.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Are these new tables? Haven't touched ATR in months and I don't recall seeing them anywhere, at least on IJE0S. [/B]
    NO, I wish they were..!!
    They are defined on other platforms..

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
    NO, I wish they were..!!
    They are defined on other platforms..
    Imo it corresponds with boost or calculated maf. Something buried in stock logic makes the car extremely unhappy when boost is much higher than stock pre or post shift.

    I tested this theory by using an old v301 map which tanks boost req/mean abs north of 6500 and never corrected post shift if shifted over 6500.

    Pm me your email if you have IJE0S and wanna try it for yourself. If you're FBO stock turbos should work fine as it is an early release of stage 2 + FMIC.

  6. #31
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    I do have IJEOS rom and FBO with stock turbos.
    PM Sent..!!
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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The 4-5 shift does not flatline in context of this discussion when stacked with JB4 iso because the actual boost being fed never exceeds req boost. I am well aware we are talking about two things here; the first being a massive correction in multiple cylinders on a 2-3 or 3-4 shift and one where timing simply does not recover with no corrections evident.

    The issue I was speaking of in context of this discussion was the one where timing corrections show post shift.
    The WGDC is not at 0, just the table Base value is at 0. The actual WGDC can be at like 15%, the amount between 0 and 15% is added by other algorithms in the ECU, which I cannot control (but maybe Cobb can). If I could enter a negative value in the WGDC Base table, then the value would be substracted from what the ECU is adding, so I could control the turbo over a wider range.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    @cstavaru , is this in the actual wgdc on bank1/2 or does it show up in the wgdc base or after pid channels?
    It's the actual WGDC . Here is a partial throttle acceleration between 1600-2800RPM, you can see the throttle closure. And in that part of the WGDC Base table, the values are 0, so I can't lower the boost more than that.
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Imo it corresponds with boost or calculated maf. Something buried in stock logic makes the car extremely unhappy when boost is much higher than stock pre or post shift.

    I tested this theory by using an old v301 map which tanks boost req/mean abs north of 6500 and never corrected post shift if shifted over 6500.

    Pm me your email if you have IJE0S and wanna try it for yourself. If you're FBO stock turbos should work fine as it is an early release of stage 2 + FMIC.
    Doesn't seem to have much to do with the actual boost target. Because the BMS flash runs OEM load targets (as far as the DME knows) and the issue still crops up. One thing I could try is running much lower than OEM targets via the flash.

    If you have a flash map that does not flatline, then in theory using that map with the JB4 ISO shouldn't flatline either.

    PS. I moved the throttle close to the very beginning of the shift process and it was OK for one run during the 3->4 where all previous runs tanked. But then during a subsequent run it sort of tanked again, only not as bad as before. So the hunt continues. What a wild goose chase.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-03-2012 at 08:06 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    It's the actual WGDC . Here is a partial throttle acceleration between 1600-2800RPM, you can see the throttle closure. And in that part of the WGDC Base table, the values are 0, so I can't lower the boost more than that.
    Click here to enlarge
    What's your wgdc after pid saying?
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    I have the timing drops on my shifts with a manual, they were actually worse prior to installing a WOTBox and using no lift shifting. I typically get around 3 cylinders that correct 3.38* post shift consistently.
    I think I have solved what people usually refer as "post-shift flatline". The problem is that the Cobb Stage 2 maps (ALL the maps, even the Drive map, if I remember right) are too aggressive at exactly the engine loads that appear after a shift (loads of 60-100). If you look at the timing maps of Drive and Aggressive, you will see that for the lower loads (around 60-100) the timing is similar, and too high. You sometimes end up with timings of 18-20 degrees right after a 3-4 shift, which can't be good.

    What I did is to log the post-shift loads and lower the timing at those loads such by 0.5-1 degree, in steps, such that there is no timing correction after shift, on any cylinder. Previously, there were lots of corrections. Now the car shifts very strongly, with no "bog" or "flatline" feel.

    Here is the timing table I ended up with. Note that no values are higher than Cobb's (maybe 2-3 values are 0.5-1 degrees higher) however look at the right half (up to loads of 100) of the table to see the correct timing to avoid post-shift timing corrections (on 93 octane).

    Click here to enlarge

  12. #37
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    Unfortunately that doesn't help 6AT guys as they pretty much hold load/boost through the shifts so they'd need to affect full load timing which then affects in gear power
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Unfortunately that doesn't help 6AT guys as they pretty much hold load/boost through the shifts so they'd need to affect full load timing which then affects in gear power
    How much load exactly is usually logged after a 6AT 3-4 shift ? I noticed that the column header values of the tables can also be modified, so if the load it's like 170 after shift you can add a dedicated column for this load and lower the timing for loads around 170, but not for loads of 180+.

    I was not aware of shift "flatline" or "bog" on 6AT, I thought it's only on manuals. But I think that if the load was maximal between shifts, there would be no timing corrections. The load must be a bit lower after a shift, which can then be exploited as I explained above. At least that's what I would do if I would have a 6AT Click here to enlarge

  14. #39
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    Great idea as i said but its unfortunately been tested already on @themyst's car and it doesn't work as load doesn't drop as much as on a 6MT...6MTs dont even have it nearly as bad as 6ATs too and they'll still slightly correct on the 3-4 or any shift for that matter
    Click here to enlarge

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    There is a bit of knock on shifts that can be tuned out via the timing table. But that's separate from the overboost flatline. The problem is that we need control of target boost, and we don't get nearly enough control of it from adjusting target load.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't seem to have much to do with the actual boost target. Because the BMS flash runs OEM load targets (as far as the DME knows) and the issue still crops up. One thing I could try is running much lower than OEM targets via the flash.

    If you have a flash map that does not flatline, then in theory using that map with the JB4 ISO shouldn't flatline either.

    PS. I moved the throttle close to the very beginning of the shift process and it was OK for one run during the 3->4 where all previous runs tanked. But then during a subsequent run it sort of tanked again, only not as bad as before. So the hunt continues. What a wild goose chase.
    I swore I sent you this log but I'll post it here again since it's such an active topic right now. This is on V301 mapping. As you can see, north of 6500 RPM req/actual boost mean abs tanks and corresponds with what I found with old V301 maps, which is that I simply can't make the car drop timing post-shift if I shift north of 6500. This issue cropped up on V400/401 and started getting worse lately with the E85 and higher boost targets.

    edit - one thing the JB4 ISO fixes by design is the fact actual flatlining (without corrections) on deep pulls like 4-5 or 5-6 shifts on 6AT is non-existent due to the fact the actual dummy actual abs feed is always lower than req. boost abs.

    Click here to enlarge

  17. #42
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    In that trim you never ever flatline on the 3->4? I've found things will work fine one day and the flatlining returns the next.

    I've seen the same flatline on the 2->3 and 4->5. It's less common on the 2->3 especially when throttle is active. So I ponder to myself, is it the throttle reducing power output for a moment that is keeping timing from dropping or some mapped issue within the DME? Years later this thing is still a bit of a mystery. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    In that trim you never ever flatline on the 3->4? I've found things will work fine one day and the flatlining returns the next.

    I've seen the same flatline on the 2->3 and 4->5. It's less common on the 2->3 especially when throttle is active. So I ponder to myself, is it the throttle reducing power output for a moment that is keeping timing from dropping or some mapped issue within the DME? Years later this thing is still a bit of a mystery. Click here to enlarge
    In my extensive testing, V301 OTS maps NEVER flatline north of 6500 RPM, the map used to post the log from my previous response makes the car hiccup, but the car recovers perfectly.

    In my testing of race logic with dzenno, if throttle is kept slightly below max (where it sustains 76-77 as opposed to 80-81) the car will recover timing nearly perfectly. Slightly below max by the DME trimming it, not by lowering the maximum throttle angle.

    I'd say run a V301 map for testing, the problem is those maps will lean out on RB turbos badly.

    PS: the JB4 ISO eliminates the boost overshoot timing flatline, not the massive corrections post-shift. Two separate issues.

  19. #44
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    IJEOS, 6AT -- I only flat line in the 4 --> 5 shift. If people want to see it, I can post a log I took back in September for themyst/COBB that illustrates the timing flatline.
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  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    In that trim you never ever flatline on the 3->4? I've found things will work fine one day and the flatlining returns the next.

    I've seen the same flatline on the 2->3 and 4->5. It's less common on the 2->3 especially when throttle is active. So I ponder to myself, is it the throttle reducing power output for a moment that is keeping timing from dropping or some mapped issue within the DME? Years later this thing is still a bit of a mystery. Click here to enlarge
    I don't know how you'd even troubleshoot this issue with JB4 datalogs without logging timing correction vs. actual timing to be honest as you can't see if its a timing correction or if its the DME adjusting applied/base timing. I always wonder why piggies haven't added that support yet. Is it really that hard to do or is the reason something else? Is it a change in the harness?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I don't know how you'd even troubleshoot this issue with JB4 datalogs without logging timing correction vs. actual timing to be honest as you can't see if its a timing correction or if its the DME adjusting applied/base timing. I always wonder why piggies haven't added that support yet. Is it really that hard to do or is the reason something else? Is it a change in the harness?
    After you look at enough logs it's normally easy to spot the difference between a 3 degree correction (or multiples) and a mapped out change. Another easy method is to just run low boost on E85 + meth where it's not plausible to have timing corrections.

    Advance 2-6 can be added. I had it reading at one point but it was buggy and had side effects. There is a bunch of work involved there and I haven't had the energy to get back to it. Some day though!
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  22. #47
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    ^^^ +1 it's easy to spot... plus a "correction" recovers with a slope. A global change by the DME will all of a sudden be a new higher value once the main timing map is referenced again... no slope. I'm not seeing any post-shift issues though. Mine are torque intervention by the DME. Some maps are much worse then others. With my current base map I don't see it at WOT, but still sometimes during requested load changes at part throttle... not so bad, but a fix would be great.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    There is different "ignition cut" effects with different base maps. For example 1 (or all) of the 402 (don't remember which) maps, ign cuts almost randomly... probably in over boost situations, but the correlation is not so straight forward. Now porting the same parameters to the original 300 map0 as base there is no ign cut. I did keep the torque limits unchanged, but iirc these were lower in v300.
    Do you have Disable Torque Intervention by Ign cheked off?
    IJEOS rom?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
    Do you have Disable Torque Intervention by Ign cheked off?
    IJEOS rom?
    Ive tried both and no difference. I think this feature is during a shift.

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    WOW! I never expected a little info share to turn into this, AWESOME! Keep the info coming!

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