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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    The main thing that people seem to get hung up on is boost.
    We get hung up on it because unlike fuel and timing (thanks ATR) we don't have complete control over it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    A lot of people have a hard time wrapping there head around this, but you just have to remember that this car has no actual boost targeting.
    Yet there is a loggable target boost derived partially(?) from target load, and timing does weird things as soon as you exceed it. What can we do to stop that?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Yes you can increase boost, but the DME is ultimately only trying to achieve a load. If it feels it's doing an adequate job with a certain boost, it's not going to make any more.
    I'm at high elevation. I can't hit load targets above 170. Yet I run into problems due to exceeding target boost. Why? Target boost never seems to rise above about 15psi no matter how high target load is set. Why?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    That being said, there are ways to increase boost (obviously since we are all making more than stock). I'll see what I can do to come up with a more specific guideline for the boost system. If you guys haven't looked at the newest revision of the tuning guide, I would give it a read (Version 4.03 with our new logo). We have added some new sections/info with the hope it would clear some things up. I'll make it a point to re-visit the boost system and see if Jason and I can come up with a flow chart or something like that to help everyone see what the DME is trying to do.
    OK, I'll check it out. I'd kind of given up on getting real answers in this area...

  2. #77
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    FWIW I have a very promising "flatline" fix. Requires JB4 G5 ISO and our backend flash loaded via an Ap. Email me if you have the issue and want to help test the fix. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    FWIW I have a very promising "flatline" fix. Requires JB4 G5 ISO and our backend flash loaded via an Ap. Email me if you have the issue and want to help test the fix. Click here to enlarge
    I know @ChuckD05 was ecstatic not flatlining shifts at 5500 lol.

  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    I know @ChuckD05 was ecstatic not flatlining shifts at 5500 lol.
    Yes it's looking very promising but need more testers and maybe a tweak or two before I announce it's dead forever. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #80
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Yes it's looking very promising but need more testers and maybe a tweak or two before I announce it's dead forever. Click here to enlarge
    So what's the fix?

  6. #81
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    So what's the fix?
    Once we know it's fully working for everyone I'll be more than happy to share some additional info on it.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Carl Morris Click here to enlarge
    We get hung up on it because unlike fuel and timing (thanks ATR) we don't have complete control over it.



    Yet there is a loggable target boost derived partially(?) from target load, and timing does weird things as soon as you exceed it. What can we do to stop that?



    I'm at high elevation. I can't hit load targets above 170. Yet I run into problems due to exceeding target boost. Why? Target boost never seems to rise above about 15psi no matter how high target load is set. Why?



    OK, I'll check it out. I'd kind of given up on getting real answers in this area...

    I think by "complete control" you mean boost targeting. Since BMW designed the system to be load based using tons of modelling, then it will not become a boost target strategy without major OS re-writes. We provide the same method of boost control as the OEM originally intended.

    When you exceed target boost, the DME does what it is told to provide safety for the engine and turbos. If these timing drops are not related to timing corrections, then that's the issue we're discussing. I'm currently working on timing dropouts.

    At high elevation, the DME is again aiming for safety. The DME has baro compensations (like most ECUs) for this reason. I don't know your specific altitude or other environmental conditions, but if the air is so thin that the DME is only providing 15psi, then you're likely at or beyond the turbos' efficiency as it is. If you were to make 18psi at that altitude, it would likely be pointless and would overspin the turbos.

    Once race code is released, it may be possible to remove these compensations... but I would personally leave them there.
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  8. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Once we know it's fully working for everyone I'll be more than happy to share some additional info on it.
    Terry, I'd be really interested to see what you've found. If you'd like to share, feel free to shoot me an email. Click here to enlarge
    Josh Dankel
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  9. #84
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Terry, I'd be really interested to see what you've found. If you'd like to share, feel free to shoot me an email. Click here to enlarge
    Sure I'll drop you a note later.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  10. #85
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for the offering your help. Below are a couple tables… could you give some brief explanation and potentially how the values/factors correlate.

    -WGDC to WGDC Position

    -Cylinder Temp Comp table sets including weight factor

    -Requested Torque (Driver) What’s the function of tables with “Driver” label?

    -Requested Torque Mon. Factor A & B

    I have more questions, but this is a good start. Thanks much!
    I've been super busy, but I'll try to get some complete descriptions on these for you guys soon.
    Josh Dankel
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  11. #86
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    Wow......Dejavu.

    I remember struggling with this timing flatline issue with my Procede tune about a year ago and I couldn't get rid of it.

    Didn't seem to be very much of an issue back then so it didn't get a lot of attention on the forums.

    It's interesting to see how it's a common problem among all tuning platforms now.

    But I haven't seen it in any of my datalogs for months now.

    Have no idea why Click here to enlarge

    I have been toying with the idea of stacking Cobb with Procede just to get better fuel control, but my timing is so stable now that I don't want to rock the boat.

    But just look at those fuel trims - this seems to be the newest Procede issue that multiple customers are having trouble with.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  12. #87
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DCAFS Click here to enlarge
    Wow......Dejavu.

    I remember struggling with this timing flatline issue with my Procede tune about a year ago and I couldn't get rid of it.

    Didn't seem to be very much of an issue back then so it didn't get a lot of attention on the forums.

    It's interesting to see how it's a common problem among all tuning platforms now.

    But I haven't seen it in any of my datalogs for months now.

    Have no idea why Click here to enlarge

    I have been toying with the idea of stacking Cobb with Procede just to get better fuel control, but my timing is so stable now that I don't want to rock the boat.

    But just look at those fuel trims - this seems to be the newest Procede issue that multiple customers are having trouble with.
    Off topic, But looking at your logs I have a few questions:
    1. The jagged jumping between 4500 and 5500 is boost oscillation correct? How would one correct that?
    2. At the beginning of your run, AFRs drop then rise then drop again, any idea why that happens? Mine does the same in the first gear I start in, but dissapears when I shift. But mine is much more drastic wher it drops to 10 or 11 them jumps randomly to 20 and then works its way back down.
    Sorry to Thread jack, just trying to learn more and correct my tune until I switch to Cobb Click here to enlarge

  13. #88
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aced16 Click here to enlarge
    Off topic, But looking at your logs I have a few questions:
    1. The jagged jumping between 4500 and 55your s boost oscillation correct? How would one correct that?
    2. At the beginning of your run, AFRs drop then rise then drop again, any idea why that happens? Mine does the same in the first gear I start in, but dissapears when I shift. But mine is much more drastic wher it drops to 10 or 11 them jumps randomly to 20 and then works its way back down.
    Sorry to Thread jack, just trying to learn more and correct my tune until I switch to Cobb Click here to enlarge
    How does your fuel trims look when your AFRs spike? Without seeing a log i'm just guessing that your trims are maxxed and you're leanng out.
    Click here to enlarge
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  14. #89
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    I think by "complete control" you mean boost targeting.
    Not necessarily. If I could hit my load targets that would be fine, too. But I want something I can set that it will actually hit rather than it just being a mystery as to why I have no control over it. Having Cobb reps trying to convince me that it's a good thing that I can't control it isn't helpful :-).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    At high elevation, the DME is again aiming for safety. The DME has baro compensations (like most ECUs) for this reason. I don't know your specific altitude or other environmental conditions, but if the air is so thin that the DME is only providing 15psi, then you're likely at or beyond the turbos' efficiency as it is. If you were to make 18psi at that altitude, it would likely be pointless and would overspin the turbos.
    I understand. The DME is allowing some overshoot with the provided WGDC maps, but that causes its own set of problems. But the boost target is only about 15psi. But until I know I can control it, pointless or not, I'm hesitant to commit a lot of time and energy to it. If I put bigger turbos on tomorrow that can hold 18+psi to redline efficiently, how am I going to get what I want from ATR? Show me how I can get complete control and I'll stop worrying and complaining about it because I'll know that I can take advantage of all the airflow I can get in the future.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aced16 Click here to enlarge
    Off topic, But looking at your logs I have a few questions:
    1. The jagged jumping between 4500 and 5500 is boost oscillation correct? How would one correct that?
    If you mean around the 3 second time stamp the boost is not oscillating.....but it is making granular corrections to target around +- 0.5 psi.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aced16 Click here to enlarge
    2. At the beginning of your run, AFRs drop then rise then drop again, any idea why that happens? Mine does the same in the first gear I start in, but dissapears when I shift. But mine is much more drastic wher it drops to 10 or 11 them jumps randomly to 20 and then works its way back down.
    I am not at full throttle until the 2.5 second mark in that log....that is when you see the AFR start to drop. The AFR spike at 5 seconds indicates a gear change and this is where piggies have trouble maintaining AFR's since they have to use a bias calculation on the oxygen sensor data to fool the DME. Once you install Cobb....Cobb IS the DME so it manages the AFR's directly with no bias and does a better job in this regard.

    You should post up a log so that we can see what you are saying......get's lost in translation sometimes otherwise.
    Last edited by DCAFS; 12-11-2012 at 02:16 AM.

  16. #91
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    Terry sent me his "flat line logic" cobb file three days ago and it hasn’t stopped pouring rain since :-(

    I was able to WOT a few 3-4 and 2-3 shifts at various RPMs that would flat line timing and it seems to be bouncing right back, but i have not been able to WOT through gears 2-5 ... The car still went well at 11s and trapped 119 at the strip but even with 105 octane and 100 percent meth the car still flat lined timing during gear changes in 4th and partially in 3rd at only 17-18 psi... No doubt robbing some speed from the car.

    This latest file for the jb4 back end flash certainly seems very promising. I cannot wait for dry pavement, with some luck that could be this evening. Weather hasbeen a major buzz kill. But I have not noticed even one time the car not recovering timing back to over 10 degrees post shift at WOT the few times I was able to hit the gas on the wet pavement.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Carl Morris Click here to enlarge
    Not necessarily. If I could hit my load targets that would be fine, too. But I want something I can set that it will actually hit rather than it just being a mystery as to why I have no control over it. Having Cobb reps trying to convince me that it's a good thing that I can't control it isn't helpful :-).



    I understand. The DME is allowing some overshoot with the provided WGDC maps, but that causes its own set of problems. But the boost target is only about 15psi. But until I know I can control it, pointless or not, I'm hesitant to commit a lot of time and energy to it. If I put bigger turbos on tomorrow that can hold 18+psi to redline efficiently, how am I going to get what I want from ATR? Show me how I can get complete control and I'll stop worrying and complaining about it because I'll know that I can take advantage of all the airflow I can get in the future.
    Understandable. Once I have something final for the race code, we'll have to do some altitude testing and see what limitations we run into.
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  18. #93
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Understandable. Once I have something final for the race code, we'll have to do some altitude testing and see what limitations we run into.
    Josh - What will the race code add for us? I'm not familiar with the race code even on the Subaru platforms
    For Sale:

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Sure I'll drop you a note later.
    Additional feedback?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
    Josh - What will the race code add for us? I'm not familiar with the race code even on the Subaru platforms
    Exceeding 18.6 psi or 1.28 bar mostly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    Terry sent me his "flat line logic" cobb file three days ago and it hasn’t stopped pouring rain since :-(

    I was able to WOT a few 3-4 and 2-3 shifts at various RPMs that would flat line timing and it seems to be bouncing right back, but i have not been able to WOT through gears 2-5 ... The car still went well at 11s and trapped 119 at the strip but even with 105 octane and 100 percent meth the car still flat lined timing during gear changes in 4th and partially in 3rd at only 17-18 psi... No doubt robbing some speed from the car.

    This latest file for the jb4 back end flash certainly seems very promising. I cannot wait for dry pavement, with some luck that could be this evening. Weather hasbeen a major buzz kill. But I have not noticed even one time the car not recovering timing back to over 10 degrees post shift at WOT the few times I was able to hit the gas on the wet pavement.
    How did you make out?
    For Sale:

    - NX Express complete wet kit with Plug & Play fuel adapter for BMW 335i

    - FBO parts here LINK


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    So far it's working great. Click here to enlarge If anyone else (using G5 ISO + BMS flash) has the issue email in for the fix.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    So far it's working great. Click here to enlarge If anyone else (using G5 ISO + BMS flash) has the issue email in for the fix.
    So, what is the fix?
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    So, what is the fix?
    Basically, having the DME think it's running a lower "110 load" instead of the normal "130 load" it would otherwise run. Then we went through and corrected the timing, afr, and vanos changes for the new lower load targets. It just so happens the approach works perfectly with our new JB4 ISO firmware. Click here to enlarge

    Long term there are various unexposed load to timing tables floating around Cobb will need to find for us.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-12-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  25. #100
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Basically, having the DME think it's running "110 load" instead of the normal "130 load" it would otherwise run. There are various unexposed load to timing tables floating around Cobb will need to find for us. Until then we've come up with this flash work around that just so happens to perfectly suite the way the G5 ISO works. Click here to enlarge
    Ahh, so it may be similar to what's going on with the guys at high altitudes when they are hitting boost/load targets and their timing goes wonky. Are you doing anything special in the 110 load column or is it just that you're keeping it under target?
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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