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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    The problem is not as much as religion but more so with education. Countries where education is pretty much unavailable to the people living in their region become pretty much from day one fed religious bull$#@! as education. Where did this planet come from? God did it. Where do I come from? God did it. How do we have water? God did it! For every question the answer is god. So when representatives of god tell you to go do things you do it and don't ask questions, because you wouldn't have questions of your own. It's no wonder that the hotbeds for war are were countries have the poorest education ratings, it's not a coincidence:

    Attachment 22497
    It's honestly religion and thousands of years of bull$#@! more than education.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's honestly religion and thousands of years of bull$#@! more than education.

    If you had no access to education, and say never touched up on subjects such as mathematics, science, etc. Do you think you would have developed the ability on your own to formulate questions that would shake the faith of all your friends and family and pretty much everybody you know? We know that if you would you'd be dead in that region anyways but still.....

    Because I don't think that I would be able to do that. I'd probably just go with the flow and do what the "higher ups" told me to do.
    Click here to enlarge

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    The thing about the chart is that about 60% of the people that are educated in those areas and up leaving to other countries.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    If you had no access to education, and say never touched up on subjects such as mathematics, science, etc. Do you think you would have developed the ability on your own to formulate questions that would shake the faith of all your friends and family and pretty much everybody you know? We know that if you would you'd be dead in that region anyways but still..... Because I don't think that I would be able to do that. I'd probably just go with the flow and do what the "higher ups" told me to do.

    It's to tough to say what would happen but according to your chart the region is having all the conflict is more educated than man other places that aren't. I think religion is a huge part of this.

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    Discussing porportions on a geographical scale, like the picture of Gaza and New York, and trying to justify the actions of Israel is a very scewed way of looking at it.

    Let's disscuss the loos of life. So far the KILL ratio of humans is 4 to 80+. Of the 80+ there are at lest 10 childre under the age of 10. Justify that.

    Last time Israel invated the death toll was even more scewed.

    If you want to talk geographical matters, then how about discussing how Israel has consistantly reached further into land which is not theirs to begin with. Something which has been constantly protested by the whole world (well lets exclude at least one big allie).

    Im not for anyone to be killed, but if someone in my family was murdered, and I felt the right to murder someone else, whould it then be proportional to kill the murderer and their whole extended family. Even the Bible states "an eye for an eye" not "masacre for a murder"
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
    Discussing porportions on a geographical scale, like the picture of Gaza and New York, and trying to justify the actions of Israel is a very scewed way of looking at it.

    Let's disscuss the loos of life. So far the KILL ratio of humans is 4 to 80+. Of the 80+ there are at lest 10 childre under the age of 10. Justify that.

    Last time Israel invated the death toll was even more scewed.

    Mmm, I'm not gonna justify Israel's actions, but if Hamas launched rockets to Israel from the roof of the appartment where your family lives, and Israel bombs that appartment, I think in that case Israel is not to blame for the deaths of your family.
    And that is what Hamas does.
    They launch rockets from schoolyards, appartment complexes, and other public places, so when Israel retalliates they can blame Israel for those killed innocent civilians.

    As I said, I'm not gona justify Israel's ations, but when you have a part of your country constantly being threathened by (locked up) people who's only hobby (and way to express their grief) is to launch rockets at random civilians, I'm not sure what you would do.

    Suppose Quantanamo was in New Jersey, and people in there were left alone, with a lot of restrictions.
    How would you react is there was a constant stream of rockets coming from there landing on New Jersey.
    Even though you knew the US are holding these people captive without a trial...
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    I highly doubt it that the family that lived in that building was aware or approved the building to be used as a rocket platform. I don't think they have a choice.

    Death-toll 136 to 5. Aparently Hamaz has fired hundreds of rockets across to Israel, and managed to kill 4 civilians. Not saying its ok, but they are not very effective it seems. with all the control over the terretory that Israel has, all the spies within Gaza, it just seems a bit over the top to bomb an apartment building with people still in it, even if a rocket was fired from the roof. In any warfare you are supposed to take into account potential civilian casualties.

    Hamaz is not a well organized or equiped army, therefore their tactics are terror tactics. Israel claims to be a civilized country, still they are the ones doing the masacre, when they could be more clinical.

    Fair?

    It's always going to be a blame game, who fire first... and everyone wants to fire last. Both nations have a public statement that the other one should be wiped out. It's a manufactured situation, uncompatable views, and will only end badly.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Mmm, I'm not gonna justify Israel's actions, but if Hamas launched rockets to Israel from the roof of the appartment where your family lives, and Israel bombs that appartment, I think in that case Israel is not to blame for the deaths of your family. And that is what Hamas does.

    What if you couldn't leave your apartment to travel anywhere? You were cut off from the rest of the world intentionally partially to starve/cripple the population around you? What if the intentino was to take your apartment and give it to someone else?


    Not so simple.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
    I highly doubt it that the family that lived in that building was aware or approved the building to be used as a rocket platform. I don&#39t think they have a choice.
    Group of Hamas fighters shot and killed a family that protested their home being using as a launching pad.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
    I highly doubt it that the family that lived in that building was aware or approved the building to be used as a rocket platform. I don't think they have a choice.

    Death-toll 136 to 5. Aparently Hamaz has fired hundreds of rockets across to Israel, and managed to kill 4 civilians. Not saying its ok, but they are not very effective it seems. with all the control over the terretory that Israel has, all the spies within Gaza, it just seems a bit over the top to bomb an apartment building with people still in it, even if a rocket was fired from the roof. In any warfare you are supposed to take into account potential civilian casualties.

    Hamaz is not a well organized or equiped army, therefore their tactics are terror tactics. Israel claims to be a civilized country, still they are the ones doing the masacre, when they could be more clinical.

    Fair?

    It's always going to be a blame game, who fire first... and everyone wants to fire last. Both nations have a public statement that the other one should be wiped out. It's a manufactured situation, uncompatable views, and will only end badly.
    I'll take the other side here. Everybody knows that the Israeli forces are among the most modernized in the world. If you have rockets built in the cold war era you must know for sure that you're going to get the $#@! kicked out of you. And in Israels case the way they do things is, they return the attack more than 10 times fold back at you. So you know you're entering in a war that you can't win. Just look back into the 60's, they rolled 4 countries in 6 days and occupied them. That's all the time it took. I'm sure the gap is far now as long as we're talking about military equipment and training. So if it's a lost cause then why keep doing it?

    Also apparently it's only fair and ok to kill Arabs as long as it's Arabs doing it. 2011 Egypt, Syria, 2012 Libya...etc. Nobody in the Arab world has to say anything then right? Once Israel gets involved?!!? Oh my god what is this world coming to?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
    Discussing porportions on a geographical scale, like the picture of Gaza and New York, and trying to justify the actions of Israel is a very scewed way of looking at it.

    Let's disscuss the loos of life. So far the KILL ratio of humans is 4 to 80+. Of the 80+ there are at lest 10 childre under the age of 10. Justify that.

    Last time Israel invated the death toll was even more scewed.

    If you want to talk geographical matters, then how about discussing how Israel has consistantly reached further into land which is not theirs to begin with. Something which has been constantly protested by the whole world (well lets exclude at least one big allie).

    Im not for anyone to be killed, but if someone in my family was murdered, and I felt the right to murder someone else, whould it then be proportional to kill the murderer and their whole extended family. Even the Bible states "an eye for an eye" not "masacre for a murder"
    so you feel its ok for israel to sit back and get bombed then? you just dont get it do you? as long as those in the surrounding areas harbor and welcome, do nothing to hamas and the others aide, by action or lack of action, this will continue.. In Gaza your either for Israel or against it.. so do i care that a small country protects itself , no. in fact, ive got bag packed if they need some help.

    once again, War needsto be as violent as possible and as fast as possible to be over as soon as possible.. Israel knows how to do that because they dont listen to cry baby's about the return fire hitting civilians, when those civilians allowed the rockets to be shot at them in the first place..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
    I'll take the other side here. Everybody knows that the Israeli forces are among the most modernized in the world. If you have rockets built in the cold war era you must know for sure that you're going to get the $#@! kicked out of you. And in Israels case the way they do things is, they return the attack more than 10 times fold back at you. So you know you're entering in a war that you can't win. Just look back into the 60's, they rolled 4 countries in 6 days and occupied them. That's all the time it took. I'm sure the gap is far now as long as we're talking about military equipment and training. So if it's a lost cause then why keep doing it?

    Also apparently it's only fair and ok to kill Arabs as long as it's Arabs doing it. 2011 Egypt, Syria, 2012 Libya...etc. Nobody in the Arab world has to say anything then right? Once Israel gets involved?!!? Oh my god what is this world coming to?
    Couldnt have said it better. Its fine when we kill each other but when jews and muslims fight its 'omg the humanity'. People dying is people dying.

    There really is no country that will stand to Israel. Maybe Iran, but Israel would beat them quality over quantity. Everytime Arabs have challenged them in the past, they have gotten their asses whipped. The six day war in 1967? Israel used hand picked pilots and shot down some 40 aircraft in one sitting...some of which were flown by Russian Pilots!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What if you couldn't leave your apartment to travel anywhere? You were cut off from the rest of the world intentionally partially to starve/cripple the population around you? What if the intentino was to take your apartment and give it to someone else?


    Not so simple.
    It is not simple at all.
    Nothing about this is simple.
    What I meant is that from Israels perspective they destroy launch sites.
    Hamas purposely places those launch sites amongst civilian sites.
    Who is the bigger villain then?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so you feel its ok for israel to sit back and get bombed then? you just dont get it do you? as long as those in the surrounding areas harbor and welcome, do nothing to hamas and the others aide, by action or lack of action, this will continue.. In Gaza your either for Israel or against it.. so do i care that a small country protects itself , no. in fact, ive got bag packed if they need some help.

    once again, War needsto be as violent as possible and as fast as possible to be over as soon as possible.. Israel knows how to do that because they dont listen to cry baby's about the return fire hitting civilians, when those civilians allowed the rockets to be shot at them in the first place..
    The thing is too, i bet those civvies were forced to comply with Hamas. Murder & Intimidation tactics run high in terrorist organizations...its the only way to get their point across. Same $#@! happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. You dont agree with us or we see you talking to Americans? Simple, we kill you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    It is not simple at all.
    Nothing about this is simple.
    What I meant is that from Israels perspective they destroy launch sites.
    Hamas purposely places those launch sites amongst civilian sites.
    Who is the bigger villain then?
    So you are admitting both are villains?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So you are admitting both are villains?
    Yes, both are obviously to blame.
    But the difference is that Hamas intentionally makes the poeple in the Gaza area targets so they can run and hide and play the blame game.
    Israel on the other hand uses blunt force by strict rules of engagement.
    You don't have to like it, but when you see rockets launched, you know what's gonna happpen...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    But the difference is that Hamas intentionally makes the poeple in the Gaza area targets so they can run and hide and play the blame game.
    Israel on the other hand uses blunt force by strict rules of engagement.
    Maybe if the people in Gaza had a country to call their own they would not have to fight in such a manner...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Maybe if the people in Gaza had a country to call their own they would not have to fight in such a manner...
    uhh....

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    It's difficult to criticize Israel without being considered a antisemite, but what's the legitimation of the state of Israel again?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    uhh....
    Uhhh what?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Uhhh what?
    comment was not of sound logic

    The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands, but rather out of the Ottoman Empire, which had been ruled for 400 years by the Turks who lost it when they, fighting alongside Germany, were defeated in World War I. There were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians, but rather simply Arabs who lived in the region of Palestine.

    It was only after World War I that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were also created – also out of the Turkish Empire by the British and French victors. Jordan was created on about 80 percent of the Palestine Mandate, which was originally designated by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish homeland. Since then, Jews have been prohibited from owning property there.

    In 1947, a UN partition plan mandated the creation of two states on the remaining 20 percent of the Palestine Mandate: the State of Israel for the Jews, and another state for the stateless Arabs. But the rulers of eight Arab states did not want a non-Arab state anywhere in the Middle East. Thus they rejected the UN arrangement and simultaneously launched a three-front war of annihilation against the newly created state of Israel -- on the very day of its creation in 1948. Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer and answered it with a war, which they ultimately lost.

    A state of war in the Middle East has continued uninterruptedly ever since, because most of the Arab states have refused to sign a peace treaty with Israel, and have refused to recognize the legitimacy of the Jewish state. To this day, the Arab states and the Palestinians refer to the failure of their effort to destroy Israel as Al-Nakba -- The Catastrophe. What for one people was a joyous founding, was seen by the other as a disaster.

    Had there been no invasion of Israel by Arab armies whose intent was overtly genocidal, there would have been a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.

    From 1949 to 1956, Egypt waged war against Israel, launching more than 9,000 attacks from terrorist cells set up in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip. The 1956 “Sinai campaign” ended Egypt’s terror war, even though U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower forced Israeli Prime Minister Ben Gurion to return the Sinai to Egypt without a peace treaty.

    But the Arab war continued on other fronts. In 1964, Yasser Arafat began a campaign of terror whose avowed goal was the destruction of Israel and the genocide of its Jews. Sponsored first by Kuwait, and later by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, and Iran, Arafat declared unending war against Israel until all of “Palestine” would be liberated, redeemed in “fire and blood.”

    In 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked Israel for a second time and were again defeated. It was in repelling these aggressors that Israel came to control the West Bank and the Gaza strip, as well as the oil-rich Sinai desert. Israel elected not to annex these territories it had captured from the aggressors, but neither did it withdraw its armies or relinquish its control over the region because the Arabs once again refused to make peace.

    In 1973 the Arab armies again attacked Israel. This invasion was led by Syria and Egypt, abetted by Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and five other countries that gave military support to the aggressors. Israel again defeated the Arab forces. Afterwards, Egypt -- and Egypt alone -- agreed to make a formal peace.

    In 1987 the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) initiated a violent, six-year Intifada (uprising) directed against Israeli soldiers and civilians alike, after false rumors of Israeli atrocities had circulated through Palestinian territories. During the first four years of the uprising, Palestinians carried out more than 3,600 Molotov cocktail attacks, 100 hand grenade attacks, and 600 assaults with guns or explosives. These actions resulted in the deaths of 16 Israeli civilians and 11 Israeli soldiers, in addition to the wounding of more than 1,400 Israeli civilians and 1,700 Israeli soldiers.

    In 1993 the Oslo peace process was initiated, based on the pledge that both parties would renounce violence as a means of settling their disputes. But the Palestinians never followed through on this pledge. During the so-called "peace process" -- between 1993 and 1999 -- they perpetrated more than 4,000 terrorist attacks that resulted in the deaths of more than 1,000 Israelis. During this same period, Israel gave the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza a self-governing authority, a 40,000-man armed "police force," and 95 percent of the territory their negotiators demanded. But Israel's efforts to achieve peace were in vain. In 2000, the Palestinians officially launched a new, second Intifada against Israel, effectively terminating the peace process.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    comment was not of sound logic
    You don't know your history. The State of Israel was not created in a peaceful and legal process, the moment the state was recognized war broke out. It was a British mandate that set things in motion for the state to exist (where zionism comes from) and war broke out in 1948. You ever hear of something called the 1948 Arab-Israeli war?

    The original UN plan called for two states. Notice it has been ignored. Also notice that Israel violated the resolution as originally spelled out and occupies terrorities that they were not allotted even if you were to agree with the original UN resolution which clearly Arabs who were not members of the UN did not.

    Please take a history course of the Middle East.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You don't know your history. The State of Israel was not created in a peaceful and legal process, the moment the state was recognized war broke out. It was a British mandate that set things in motion for the state to exist (where zionism comes from) and war broke out in 1948. You ever hear of something called the 1948 Arab-Israeli war?

    The original UN plan called for two states. Notice it has been ignored. Also notice that Israel violated the resolution as originally spelled out and occupies terrorities that they were not allotted even if you were to agree with the original UN resolution which clearly Arabs who were not members of the UN did not.

    Please take a history course of the Middle East.
    created in a peaceful lega process. war breaking out followed it, as the quote above states, doesnt it..? yes, it does.

    so, 1948, right after they were attacked, they took over land and never gave it back to those attacking them? gee, how unfair is that..

    arab-israeli war, oh, that first one we just talked about.. no, never heard of it.

    so, basically, you agree that you give the person punching you, a warm welcome to step inside your doorway to contnue doing it.. got it..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    created in a peaceful lega process. war breaking out followed it, as the quote above states, doesnt it..? yes, it does.
    What is this peaceful and legal process you speak of? Western powers creating laws out of thin air to impose on people who aren't members of the law making committee and who don't agree with it? This happened due to Britain's involvement and their mandates concerning Palestine which you don't seem to understand.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so, 1948, right after they were attacked, they took over land and never gave it back to those attacking them? gee, how unfair is that..
    Do you understand why they were attacked? If China comes in and decides Southern California suddenly belongs to them because they created the United Nonsense Nations and passed a resolution that said so is that legal? Even if the United States says no? And if Mexico, Canada, and United States attack because they think this is BS and China fights them off the land is now suddenly theirs legally? Gotcha.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so, basically, you agree that you give the person punching you, a warm welcome to step inside your doorway to contnue doing it.. got it..
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say but one could argue by taking land that was not yours to begin with makes you the aggressor and really the one throwing the punch. No matter what Britain says about it.

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    Respect Sticky. It's refreshing to see such open critic from the mouth of a member of the jewish community. Double props since Israel only subseded through the wars with the help of its biggest ally, the US.

    This conflict can never be brought to a peaceful ending. Let's just hope it doesn't spread over to other arabic countries.
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