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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    My thought is that longer gearing would be more beneficial on the strip (and smoother on the street) but less so on the track?

    i mean, it has to be a balance, super short gears suck, and so would super long gears


    but i can't really see a 2.56fd going around a track faster than a 3.x

    you may get a broader in gear torque/speed spread, but the wheels see less.. a LOT less.
    I thankfully found an old post of mine I have been looking for... for well forever. If you take these dyno results, then do the math with his gears and final drive, you'll get something that looks like this:

    Click here to enlarge

    So that's how you can figure out what gearing you want for what speeds.

    This should explain what you are seeing:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
    There is a chunk from about 88 mph to 102 mph where the 6 speed is making more torque at the axle.

    This takes place after the 1/8 mile. The fastest 1/8 mile recorded is mine: 7.876 @ 91.640.

    Now, that 1/8 mile is faster both in ET and trap than the fastest 1/4 mile trapping M3 which is eagletangogreen at 115.9 mph.

    Now, his car is manual and it reflects the gearing difference perfectly.

    My car DCT:

    1/8: 7.920 @ 91.6 mph
    1/4: 12.19 @ 115.170

    His car 6MT:

    1/8: 8.133 @ 89.8 mph
    1/4: 12.36 @ 115.9

    So, even though I am pulling harder at the 1/8 mile and get there quicker in my DCT, because the DCT has to shift to 4th gear it has less torque @ the axle for a significantly long period after the 1/8. His results reflect this as the manual is able to erase the difference in trap speed at the 1/8 and actually start to pull.

    It is not enough of a difference for him to catch me by the 1/4, but hope this shows that the shorter gearing of the DCT is actually a detriment in the 1/4 but an advantage in the 1/8. It would be an advantage on the road course.

  2. #102
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    For the most part, yes. Depends on the track but usually you will want tighter spacing for the speeds you will be at on the roadcourse.



    If you calculate the math out the wheels will only see less at certain speeds but more at certain speeds.

    Shorter gears for example will have more torque until the 1st to 2nd shift. So once in 2nd the longer gears still in first will have more torque up until it shifts into second. This process then repeats itself but multiplication is greatest in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and then levels out pretty hard.

    See here, not an N54 but it applies as well:

    http://www.PorscheBoost.com/images/i...0e8d58_o-1.png
    ahh fair enough

    by my mental maths, 2.5x final drive compared to a 3.46, 3.46 has more torque until the 3rd shift.. and even then, it'd be very close (2nd at 2.5x getting you to 13x km/h?)

    it's a pretty extreme difference in ratios in this case though, more than between transmissions

    but then third in the 2.5x has it until 21x km/h, and by then it's all over

  3. #103
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I thankfully found an old post of mine I have been looking for... for well forever. If you take these dyno results, then do the math with his gears and final drive, you'll get something that looks like this:

    http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo.../FDR91B4-1.jpg

    So that's how you can figure out what gearing you want for what speeds.

    This should explain what you are seeing:

    [/FONT][/COLOR]
    thanks!

    i've never thought of it in such short terms (1/8th to 1/4 mile)

    so the DCT has a faster low speed sprint but the ratios in the 6MT allow it to pull away at much higher speeds when the torque is spread over a longer speed range

    this makes sense

  4. #104
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    ahh fair enough

    by my mental maths, 2.5x final drive compared to a 3.46, 3.46 has more torque until the 3rd shift.. and even then, it'd be very close (2nd at 2.5x getting you to 13x km/h?)

    it's a pretty extreme difference in ratios in this case though, more than between transmissions
    If 3.46 is stock then ya, 2.5X is pretty radial at around 28%. So whatever first gear goes to normally it will now go 28% longer. I mean that's a pretty huge change. But this car is also making a lot more torque than stock.

    He will actually have a lot of torque in first gear for a long while.

    Is the gearing too long? I don't know.

  5. #105
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If 3.46 is stock then ya, 2.5X is pretty radial at around 28%. So whatever first gear goes to normally it will now go 28% longer. I mean that's a pretty huge change. But this car is also making a lot more torque than stock.

    He will actually have a lot of torque in first gear for a long while.

    Is the gearing too long? I don't know.
    3.08 (or 3.06) is stock 6MT for the 135/335, 3.46 is for N52 powered cars (or a shorter final drive quaife/wavetrac swap) and i think steptronic's?.. though the actual gear ratios aren't comparable..
    ED: BMW 135i-Manual
    I:4.06
    II:2.40
    III:1.58
    IV:1.19
    V:1.00
    VI:0.87
    R:3.68
    Final Drive ratio:3.08

    BMW 135i-Steptronic
    I:4.17
    II:2.34
    III:1.52
    IV:1.14
    V:0.87
    VI:0.69
    R:3.40
    Final Drive Ratio:3.46

    yup

    yeah, i'm assuming it's still awesomely driveable, and going almost 90km/h in first gear in a manual car.. now that's something special lol

    also that shifting in a manual car takes up very precious time on the strip, so being able to cut out a whole shift, that helps a lot..

  6. #106
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    My thought is that longer gearing would be more beneficial on the strip (and smoother on the street) but less so on the track?
    Gearing depends on the race application.

    2 examples: In Rally, top speed is about 120mph so these cars have ultra short gearing.

    In Formula 1, you adapt the gearing to the longest straight of each particular track. You want the engine to hit redline (18k rpm max as per FIA rules) in top gear at the end of that straight line.
    E92 335i SB / Black Leather / 6AT / Navi Prof / Sunroof / Active Steering
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  7. #107
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    . Not going to tell you again.

    LMFAO
    E92 AT. COBB S2+ , FBOs.

  8. #108
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    DZ,excellent results!!!

    Try driving that car on our roads, im pretty sure you wont get any traction till maybe end of fourth gear, that explains how bad our tarmac is 'very dangerous'.
    Im S2+ with some added timing and i cant get traction.
    E92 AT. COBB S2+ , FBOs.

  9. #109
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    If anything the car is incurring more drivetrain losses now dynoing in 3rd now vs. 4th with the 3.08. Funny how this topic came up now and all this time no one compared 3.08 and 3.46 final drives Click here to enlarge in any case, in terms of racing the sort of final drive best used will depend on the race specifics really...optimizing gearimg for racing is one thing, power is another and they go hand in hand when analyzing how the car will translate power from the motor to the ground...3.46 with this much torque would be useless...3.08 may stand a chance
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #110
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    Update: found a boost leak. Line going to my p3 gauge came off. Not a big leak but nonetheless a leak..we'll see if this improves things further..thoughts?
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #111
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    If anything the car is incurring more drivetrain losses now dynoing in 3rd now vs. 4th with the 3.08. Funny how this topic came up now and all this time no one compared 3.08 and 3.46 final drives Click here to enlarge in any case, in terms of racing the sort of final drive best used will depend on the race specifics really...optimizing gearimg for racing is one thing, power is another and they go hand in hand when analyzing how the car will translate power from the motor to the ground...3.46 with this much torque would be useless...3.08 may stand a chance
    I went from 3.08 to 3.46 and saw an increase in torque on the dyno. I would expect going the opposite way would result in a decrease in torque.

    Are you running the NT 555 or the NT 555R?
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  12. #112
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    I went from 3.08 to 3.46 and saw an increase in torque on the dyno. I would expect going the opposite way would result in a decrease in torque.

    Are you running the NT 555 or the NT 555R?
    Interesting. That was on a Mustang dyno correct?

    Front is 555 (regular street tire), Rear is 555R (drag radial)
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #113
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    Very impressive! I'd take this over the single turbo conversion any day of the week !

  14. #114
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    Shorter gear ratios typically lead to higher drivetrain loss, but again its not going to really be significant at these ratios. Especially due to other factors like dyno error and how much more loaded one run is vs the other

  15. #115
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Update: found a boost leak. Line going to my p3 gauge came off. Not a big leak but nonetheless a leak..we'll see if this improves things further..thoughts?
    happened to me a few times and i didn't notice a difference
    Click here to enlarge

  16. #116
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lamia2super Click here to enlarge
    happened to me a few times and i didn't notice a difference
    Ya its tiny, probably nothing.
    Click here to enlarge

  17. #117
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Interesting. That was on a Mustang dyno correct?

    Front is 555 (regular street tire), Rear is 555R (drag radial)
    Yes, same mustang dyno.
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  18. #118
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    awesome dzenno

  19. #119
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    Have you driven dzenno's car and a single turbo (with the medium or larger turbo) n54 back to back for a full day each? I take nothing away from dzenno, his car is coming together nicely. But I would personally much rather have a single setup that is capable of much more power up top. But that's just me.

    My intentions were not to turn this into a twin vs single debate again. So on this note i digress. Let's keep it on topic.
    no but i have driven cars that are similar to the two... single turbo supra or evo can most likely be compared to single n54
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  20. #120
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Gearing depends on the race application.

    2 examples: In Rally, top speed is about 120mph so these cars have ultra short gearing.

    In Formula 1, you adapt the gearing to the longest straight of each particular track. You want the engine to hit redline (18k rpm max as per FIA rules) in top gear at the end of that straight line.
    Redline at end of straight? Wouldn't that lead to slightly lower average speed compared to hitting a slighty lower top speed, slightly faster? As you woul be going more mph for a longer time, compared to less mph for mos of it, then more at the end of thestraight?

  21. #121
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    @dzenno are you still using OEM headbolts? I wonder if I should put a call into ARP to see if they would make headstuds?

  22. #122
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    Yes, OEM everything except exhaust valves/retainers/guides
    Click here to enlarge

  23. #123
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    @dzenno are you still using OEM headbolts? I wonder if I should put a call into ARP to see if they would make headstuds?
    i think my shop called them and they wanted to much $$$
    Click here to enlarge

  24. #124
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    Can't believe this 1:1 dyno gearing myth is still being perpetuated, especially here. That's E90Post stuff

  25. #125
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bleep Click here to enlarge
    Can't believe this 1:1 dyno gearing myth is still being perpetuated, especially here. That's E90Post stuff
    What gear do you dyno in? Please, elaborate.

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