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  1. #26
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    Pretty sure there is nothing like that. He's just got the thermal spacer type o2 bungs.
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  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    I would defintely be interested in reading that if you can find it (hint, hint) LOL. I'm not sure how I would even go about searching for that.

    Maybe he made that discovery at some point after I asked, or maybe he was just brushing me off (I'm assuming he would have already been aware of that potential issue).

    Terry, how hard would it be for you to compensate for the effect of increased backpressure on wideband readings with the JB4 and/or Cobb?
    It's just a heat issue. The sensors are rated to around 900c. As long as EGT is below that they seem to do fine. Pressure is not a factor.
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    HPF does great work for the BMW community so I don't want to talk smack but I don't know what they were thinking with that either. They dropped that design though and are letting a manifold manufacturer handle it so don't worry. Plus, they allow you to use multiple choices for manifolds so not like you can't mate whatever you want. They don't force things on you *cough* vishnu *cough*.
    I hear ya, just felt like commenting on that... Just don't know why they would show case a pile of $#@! on a white photoshopped and cropped background.

  4. #29
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    Interested in seeing how this performs compared to the open single manifolds

    Saw this on the Doc Race site and was intrigued by it. It looks exactly like the Vishnu manifold so I assume Doc Race is making their manifolds as well. Going Twin Scroll can really bring the spool up, interested in seeing some results once they get it tested. O2 sensors in the exhaust manifold is still the absolute wrong way to do it. But it seems to be working and there really doesn't seem to be a viable work around when doing a single kit.

    http://docrace.wordpress.com/2012/10...roll-manifold/

    Attachment 22579Attachment 22580Attachment 22581
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 11-26-2012 at 11:59 AM.

  5. #30
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    That's been around for a little while but I have no idea if anyone has done anything with it. If they have they're not talking about it. I would like to see what kind of power could be made if Vishnu would actually stick a BIG turbo on one of the cars. All I've seen so far are 62 or 66 snails and those are still relatively small turbos(they do spool well and have a nice power curve.)
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  6. #31
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    FYI, this was discussed here as well:

    http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...turbo-manifold

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ATP Click here to enlarge
    FYI, this was discussed here as well:

    http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...turbo-manifold
    Totally different manifold. That's the open design which I noted too. The new one is twin scroll which is why I made the new post. If you look at the two manifolds the runners are completely different. The one sticky posted looks nothing like this one. This one looks almost identical to the manifold used by Vishnu but with a twin scroll design to it.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 11-26-2012 at 12:30 PM.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    That's been around for a little while but I have no idea if anyone has done anything with it. If they have they're not talking about it. I would like to see what kind of power could be made if Vishnu would actually stick a BIG turbo on one of the cars. All I've seen so far are 62 or 66 snails and those are still relatively small turbos(they do spool well and have a nice power curve.)
    It really hasn't been around that long, they just finished the protoype about a month ago if the dates on their blog are correct. I think everyone is thinking of the open design which someone else posted above. An open design and twin scroll design are different animals and perform completely differently.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    That's the new HPF manifold, made by DOC Race, not released/tested with just yet. It supports a twin scroll turbo but its not a true twin scroll manifold. Without the ability to run just a single o2 sensor instead of having to worry about 2 of them, a true twin scroll just won't be possible on this platform due to this fuel control requirement.

    For a TRUE twin scroll setup the manifold needs to be made so that it follows the N54 firing order which is 1-5-3-6-2-4. In other words, headers from cylinders 1,5,3 need to merge into 1 and feed one of the scrolls and then headers from 6,2,4 merge in the other and feed the other scroll. This just can't work today but if Cobb manages to switch the DME programming so it can run off a single wideband it'd make it a possibility. Not only that, you'd be able to put in 1 o2 sensor POST turbo, on the downpipe, like the rest of the world.

    For now, it is what it is and power is still great even with a non twin scroll setup.
    Learned something new, thanks DZenno




  10. #35
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    Would like to see but dont think we could benifit from a "big turbo", unless ur trying to build an all out race car

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Until results are obtained its a bit hard to say but if I had to guess this has just added on complexity and cost to the kit without really having a performance advantage. A twin scroll will be benefited from on this platform only when we can run single-bank fueling and build a "True" twin scroll manifold that follows the motor's firing order.

    Other than that, its great that more options are coming out and if the manifold is sold on its own people can finally start playing with single turbos without getting vendor lock-in. Pick up the manifold of your choice, turbo of your choice, wastegates of your choice and off you go.
    Exactly what I was thinking, we will see where this goes.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Totally different manifold. That's the open design which I noted too. The new one is twin scroll which is why I made the new post. If you look at the two manifolds the runners are completely different. The one sticky posted looks nothing like this one. This one looks almost identical to the manifold used by Vishnu but with a twin scroll design to it.
    Very good point but since they evolved from that design I merged so people can see the progress and to keep the Doc Race discussion in one spot.

    If you want to keep it separate we can always split it back up.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by three35iguy Click here to enlarge
    Would like to see but dont think we could benifit from a "big turbo", unless ur trying to build an all out race car
    Don't see why you couldn't benefit.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by three35iguy Click here to enlarge
    Would like to see but dont think we could benifit from a "big turbo", unless ur trying to build an all out race car
    You can definitely benefit from a better breathing exhaust side if you're interested in going for more top end power than about 500whp that the upgraded stock frame hybrid turbos on this platform have shown to put down. Most people don't realize that at 500+whp they are pushing tons of backpressure up top through those stock frame housings, plenty of heat and things just aren't looking pretty in there in the high RPMs anymore. At the same time, low end instant spool and instant torque are great on the street. At the end of the day, its just about knowing what each setup can/can't do and to have your expectations set according to what's reasonably possibly out of any given setup as they all have something different to offer at the end of the day. Same turbo setup cannot satisfy ALL possible driving/racing situations for all people, period.
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Very good point but since they evolved from that design I merged so people can see the progress and to keep the Doc Race discussion in one spot.

    If you want to keep it separate we can always split it back up.
    Nah no need, I was just looking to see what people thought, I didn't actually look all the way through that thread if it touched on this and I am way behind because I try to stay off the forums these days, feel free to tell me to read next time.. hahaClick here to enlarge

  16. #41
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    That's the new HPF manifold, made by DOC Race, not released/tested with just yet. It supports a twin scroll turbo but its not a true twin scroll manifold. Without the ability to run just a single o2 sensor instead of having to worry about 2 of them, a true twin scroll just won't be possible on this platform due to this fuel control requirement.

    For a TRUE twin scroll setup the manifold needs to be made so that it follows the N54 firing order which is 1-5-3-6-2-4. In other words, headers from cylinders 1,5,3 need to merge into 1 and feed one of the scrolls and then headers from 6,2,4 merge in the other and feed the other scroll. This just can't work today but if Cobb manages to switch the DME programming so it can run off a single wideband it'd make it a possibility. Not only that, you'd be able to put in 1 o2 sensor POST turbo, on the downpipe, like the rest of the world.

    For now, it is what it is and power is still great even with a non twin scroll setup.
    I don't believe this is correct about twin scroll (bolded quote re cylinder pairings) theory. My understanding of twin scroll is that you want to space the cylinder firings evenly and apart from each other. Thus the factory N55 setup is true twin scroll as it pairs cyls 1,2,3 in one pairing and 4,5,6 in the other. This gives you an evenly spaced 240 degrees of crank rotation between firings per scroll/pairing.

    If we set up a turbo manifold with cylinders 1,5 and 3 into a scroll you'd have all cylinders firing 120 degrees apart from each other followed by a gap of 360 degrees of no firing at all. Same for the other scroll using 6,2 and 4.

    True twin scroll primarily tries to even out the effect of pressure spikes in the turbo manifold on the cylinder's exhaust ports, not the turbine.

    The 2jz has the same firing order as the N54/n55 and take a look at this twin scroll manifold from full-race- they've paired the cylinders up just like the OEM N55 setup and as I described: http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...-manifold.html

    So there should be no problem for true twin scroll on an N54 with 02 sensors in the scrolls assuming the scrolls remain completely divided and the 02s don't get cooked from the heat.

  17. #42
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    @BavarianBullet , my bad, you're absolutely right. I'll edit my posts above, they are simply wrong and make no sense.

    I went over it again and it has to do with basically spacing out the exhaust pulses so they intervene with each other as little as possible between firings. Combining them in a way I was describing would introduce more interference given they'd be 120deg apart, exactly like you said, and thanks for pointing out the N55 design. Great point and thank you sir for correcting me there, much appreciated!

    Twin scrolls basically solve two key issues of single scroll turbos:
    1) twin scrolls create higher backpressure down low (helping spool)
    2) they create lower backpressure up top (helping top end power by separating exhaust pulses among firing cylinders better)

    On the single scrolls:
    1) Lower backpressure down low (hurting spool)
    2) Higher backpressure on the top end (hurting top end power by not helping separate exhaust pulses among firing cylinders)
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 11-26-2012 at 02:47 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    I think if we are going for broke with a twin turbo setup, it would be worth considering a sequential setup with control from the JB4 bringing the second turbo in from 3000-4000rpm... I am sure I am just dreaming, but it would be sweet to get a log manifold made with this in mind so that valves could be fit later to do this. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    @BavarianBullet , my bad, you're absolutely right. I'll edit my posts above, they are simply wrong and make no sense.

    I went over it again and it has to do with basically spacing out the exhaust pulses so they intervene with each other as little as possible between firings. Combining them in a way I was describing would introduce more interference given they'd be 120deg apart, exactly like you said, and thanks for pointing out the N55 design. Great point and thank you sir for correcting me there, much appreciated!

    Twin scrolls basically solve two key issues of single scroll turbos:
    1) twin scrolls create higher backpressure down low (helping spool)
    2) they create lower backpressure up top (helping top end power by separating exhaust pulses among firing cylinders better)

    On the single scrolls:
    1) Lower backpressure down low (hurting spool)
    2) Higher backpressure on the top end (hurting top end power by not helping separate exhaust pulses among firing cylinders)
    So then, am I correct that you now believe that the HPF/DOC Race manifold would allow us to realize the benefits of a twin-scroll turbo?

    Thanks.

    Neil

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MDORPHN Click here to enlarge
    So then, am I correct that you now believe that the HPF/DOC Race manifold would allow us to realize the benefits of a twin-scroll turbo?

    Thanks.

    Neil
    To say that you'll see benefits we'd have compare the two setups with similar turbos on this motor. On paper it sure sounds good. In reality how they'll compare will require some r&d just like anything i guess
    Click here to enlarge

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Saw this on the Doc Race site and was intrigued by it. It looks exactly like the Vishnu manifold so I assume Doc Race is making their manifolds as well....
    AFAIK, Vishnu mani's are made by FFTEC. Which is why it's always "Vishnu Performance & FFTEC present...." This manifold, like the original HPF design, was remodeled due to the fact that the O2's could not read the way the N54 needs to see them. This is DOC's redesigned mani, which HPF will employ in their N54 single kit coming soon. The fact that they look similar is no surprise really... once something is known to work, people will most likely model their design from it.
    Click here to enlarge
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  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by oddjob2021 Click here to enlarge
    The fact that they look similar is no surprise really... once something is known to work, people will most likely model their design from it.
    Very true.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by oddjob2021 Click here to enlarge
    AFAIK, Vishnu mani's are made by FFTEC. Which is why it's always "Vishnu Performance & FFTEC present...." This manifold, like the original HPF design, was remodeled due to the fact that the O2's could not read the way the N54 needs to see them. This is DOC's redesigned mani, which HPF will employ in their N54 single kit coming soon. The fact that they look similar is no surprise really... once something is known to work, people will most likely model their design from it.
    Yes, but as discussed above there are significant differences -- Vishnu/FFTEC is single scroll and the HPF/DOC Race is twin scroll.

    Neil

  24. #49
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    If you're building an N54 tubular setup the arrangement of the runners given really tight space constraints and requirements on two o2 sensors is simply very hard to see happen any differently than VFFs. I see no need to HAVE TO change it, its just an exhaust manifold and its a good design. How many truly different intake designs do we have? How many truly different downpipe designs do we have? Intercoolers? End of day, on the surface, everything will end up looking very similar unless you go for something entirely different on the manufacturing side like what Steed Speed is doing and CNC-ing a twin scroll exhaust manifold out of a billet block of alum. Now that'd be different in every way from the design/look perspective. Same thing for a twin GTX setup that Vargas is working on.

    People need to keep in mind that it wasn't really the plumbing that is/was holding back the turbo manufacturers. It was always tuning. AR already had a full kit installed and running way before VFF came out with one. It wasn't the manifold, it was missing the required tuning pieces namely fueling being the largest one. Today we have that somewhat solved with custom flash tuning but to truly go all out and not be fuel limited more will be needed eventually. As said by @dubversion a long while back and having seen my own car hit 631wtq in midrange with pump gas and three 1mm nozzles on 100% meth, and all of the VFF dynos, it seems we have plenty of fuel to move forward and have fun with before crying for more fuel. For instance, holding 550WTQ to 7200rpm on the 6MTs is good for 750WHP at redline. More than enough power to be happy with, for a week! Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 11-26-2012 at 04:27 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by three35iguy Click here to enlarge
    Would like to see but dont think we could benifit from a "big turbo", unless ur trying to build an all out race car
    I was just thinking that majority of the people that want to go big single are going for "street fast", and wouldn't be happy with a big laggy turbo. I think once the platform expands we will see some full race cars but for now I think most are building fun street cars with bmw luxury

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