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Thread: Obama's War Crimes

              
   
  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Drones hovering over US cities... I'm not comfortable with it.
    Strange thing is you were OK with it when they patrolled over Pakistanan countryside and cities.
    Same drones.
    Same death from above.
    Disturbingly the same governement that controlls them.
    How would you feel if these drones flying over US soil were Chinese instead of US?
    Would that disturb you in the same way, or more?
    What if the Chinese were chasing people that alledgedly were planning a terrorist attack on Bejing?
    Would it then be ok for them to have drones flying over SoCal?
    because that is exactly what the US is doing in Pakistan.
    That also is not a warzone.
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  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Strange thing is you were OK with it when they patrolled over Pakistanan countryside and cities.
    You don't see a difference between monitoring your citizens and monitoring enemy actions overseas?

  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    How would you feel if these drones flying over US soil were Chinese instead of US?
    They aren't. And it's irrelevant.

  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    You don't see a difference between monitoring your citizens and monitoring enemy actions overseas?
    Apparently to your governement they are all enemies.
    Enemies to who exactly? The USA is not at war with Pakistan for instance.
    I think it is the USA's own business if they fly their own drones above their own country.
    It is a whole different story if a foreign plane, manned or not, flies above a souvereign country killing their citizens, claiming they are in violation of the foreign plane owners laws. Laws that do not apply in the country that is under attack.
    So I would feel much more comfortable if all these drones would only fly over the USA, where they belong.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    They aren't. And it's irrelevant.
    No, they would not be allowed to do this.
    And no, it is not irrelevant.
    You can not dismiss the liberties taken by the USA that easily.
    The uSA is in constant violation against a country's explicit wishes by patrolling the pakistan airspace.
    Not to mention the killing of Pakistan military personell who were mistaken for terrorists bij your "military intelligence", only last year.
    Your country is a bully to other countries, no matter what you think of it.
    You just choose to dismiss these facts "for the greater good". You just fail to realize it is only your greater good that is at stake there.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    They aren't. And it's irrelevant.
    No it's not irrelevant.

    It's what gets your ambassadors killed.
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  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Apparently to your governement they are all enemies.
    Enemies to who exactly? The USA is not at war with Pakistan for instance.
    I think it is the USA's own business if they fly their own drones above their own country.
    It is a whole different story if a foreign plane, manned or not, flies above a souvereign country killing their citizens, claiming they are in violation of the foreign plane owners laws. Laws that do not apply in the country that is under attack.
    So I would feel much more comfortable if all these drones would only fly over the USA, where they belong.
    I think they are taking it too far but drones in Pakistan where Osama Bin Laden was found and where the Taliban hang out make far more sense to me than in US cities don't you think?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    The USA is not at war with Pakistan for instance.
    But Pakistan hides terrorists.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    So I would feel much more comfortable if all these drones would only fly over the USA, where they belong.
    Um... no.

  8. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
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    No it's not irrelevant.

    It's what gets your ambassadors killed.
    Intolerant people full of hate get ambassadors who have nothing to do with what they are angry about killed.

  9. #84
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I think they are taking it too far but drones in Pakistan where Osama Bin Laden was found and where the Taliban hang out make far more sense to me than in US cities don't you think?
    Bin Laden is dead. And he was YOUR enemy, not the enemy of Pakistan. So yes, logical that it makes sense to you. But turn around is fair play, if some other country has a mortal enemy the USA should let their drones patrol the USA's airspace as wel don't you think? Same reasoning.


    But Pakistan hides terrorists.
    Rest assured the USA has plenty of terrorists within it's boundaries as well.
    Um... no.
    Why the hell not.
    They are your drones.
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    America also hides terrorists and war chriminals,, have done for years,decates, look at Bin Laden for example, it was the product of CIA.

    They fund terrorists, train them and use them when they do not want the US to be affiliated with a killing.
    A car bomb going off in the parlament building in the middle of Damascus is one example of a CIA operation, a terrorist act accepted by the US because they want Assad gone. Before the CIA proxy attacks in Syria by so called oposition groups, demonstrators started, Syria was in fact one of the few countries in the world where Christian/Muslim/all other religions could live togeather in peace.
    Now, a car bomb goes off killing women, children, civilians and local police.
    US training, US technology, US intelligence.

    The thing is that USA has for a long time considered it to be above international law. Killing anyone they want to kill in any country, even their own, all classes, all religion, all ages, without a real reason, proof of crime, law/order and a fair trial.

    But it's all done in the name of protecting the American way of life.
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  11. #86
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Bin Laden is dead.
    Oh, so that means everyone associated with him or Al Qaeda is too?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    And he was YOUR enemy, not the enemy of Pakistan.
    Yep, who happened to hide in Pakistan. This should tell you why drones are flying over Pakistan.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    if some other country has a mortal enemy the USA should let their drones patrol the USA's airspace as wel don't you think? Same reasoning.
    No, not really. The US isn't harboring anyone that is threatening to destroy Pakistan are they?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Rest assured the USA has plenty of terrorists within it's boundaries as well.
    Bin Laden wasn't hiding here.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Why the hell not.
    They are your drones.
    Because to be effective they need to be where the threat is. And that really is Pakistan at the moment.

  12. #87
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    America also hides terrorists and war chriminals,, have done for years,decates, look at Bin Laden for example, it was the product of CIA.

    They fund terrorists, train them and use them when they do not want the US to be affiliated with a killing.
    A car bomb going off in the parlament building in the middle of Damascus is one example of a CIA operation, a terrorist act accepted by the US because they want Assad gone. Before the CIA proxy attacks in Syria by so called oposition groups, demonstrators started, Syria was in fact one of the few countries in the world where Christian/Muslim/all other religions could live togeather in peace.
    Now, a car bomb goes off killing women, children, civilians and local police.
    US training, US technology, US intelligence.

    The thing is that USA has for a long time considered it to be above international law. Killing anyone they want to kill in any country, even their own, all classes, all religion, all ages, without a real reason, proof of crime, law/order and a fair trial.

    But it's all done in the name of protecting the American way of life.
    No one is saying it's not messed up. But drone strikes took out Al Qaeda's number 3 guy and helped find the number 1. Also almost took out number 2 which is only a matter of time. I mean, hey, I'm all for them destroying that network with drones.

    The problem I have is when they use them against US citizens. I have no problem with drones flying over Pakistan all day.

  13. #88
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Oh, so that means everyone associated with him or Al Qaeda is too?
    So how long is this $#@! gonna last? When will you realize you will never be able to kill all of Al Quaida from the air?

    Yep, who happened to hide in Pakistan. This should tell you why drones are flying over Pakistan.
    So every country with an enemy is entitled to have drones flying over another country, or just the USA? What do you think is fair about this?

    No, not really. The US isn't harboring anyone that is threatening to destroy Pakistan are they?
    The world is bigger then Pakistan and the USA, man. There are more fights going on worldwide than just your country's problem with Al quaida.
    And really, do you think Al Quaida can destroy the USA? Destroy? Click here to enlarge
    Bin Laden wasn't hiding here.
    Click here to enlarge Bin Laden is dead, and drones still patrol the airspace of Pakistan.
    They don't just fly there to find Bin Laden.
    Because to be effective they need to be where the threat is. And that really is Pakistan at the moment.
    USA warplanes have no business flying in foreign airspace.
    The biggest war your country is fighting now is against drugs.
    So I say let's have these drones patrol all USAcities, because they are filled with drugs users.

    Just as foreign to USA warplanes will not be tolerated in USA airspace.
    You tend to measure with 2 different measurements when it comes down to USA rights to acts of war worldwide.

    Frankly if I had any saying in Pakistan they would be shot down. There have been too many incidents to justify these planes.
    It is just Pakistan tries to be compliant with NATO that they are forced to tolerate Pakistanian civilians and army personell to be killed by USA drones, without the USA even having the decency to appologize for innocent civilian and military lives lost.
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    Osama Bin Laden was a declaired enemy of the US, by the US. Even with Bin Laden dead the US conducts mililtary operation within another country without asking permission on regular basis.

    Let me take an extreeme expample.
    How would you feel if for example Iran would conduct military operations in the US on regular basis, Bombing those who are agains Iran and want to invade Iran, and therefore pose clear and present danger to the people of Iran?

    Your embassy was attacked in Lybia (a country that US helped to put into total anarcy ant turmoil), your ambassador was murdered. This was considered an outrage in the US,, attacking US citizents on US terretory.
    How is that different from what US is doing over for example Pakistan? Regularly killing people they do not like for what ever reason on pakistany ground.

    This whole obsession the US has about dominating the world has caused us more problems than it has eliminated. But when you look at the business behind creating war you can see that there will be some big lobbyists on the sideline pumping money into politicians to make these decicions.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    So how long is this $#@! gonna last? When will you realize you will never be able to kill all of Al Quaida from the air?
    I don't know about that. Pretty effective killing tool.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    So every country with an enemy is entitled to have drones flying over another country, or just the USA? What do you think is fair about this?
    What's fair about being attacked by terrorists? Sorry the war isn't clean and neat for you.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    The world is bigger then Pakistan and the USA, man. There are more fights going on worldwide than just your country's problem with Al quaida.
    And really, do you think Al Quaida can destroy the USA? Destroy?
    I didn't say I think they could I said that is what they threatened to do and still threaten to do. Must be vigilant.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Bin Laden is dead, and drones still patrol the airspace of Pakistan.
    They don't just fly there to find Bin Laden.
    So what, Bin Laden just acted alone? That's it? These other guys putting out videos hiding in Pakistan and caves along the border I guess are no big deal?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    USA warplanes have no business flying in foreign airspace.
    It's a drone not a warplane. A technicality but it's perfectly legal from what I understand. Regardless, the USA has every right to protect itself and it isn't like the Pakistani government was helping, they were harboring the most wanted man on the planet.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    The biggest war your country is fighting now is against drugs.
    So I say let's have these drones patrol all USAcities, because they are filled with drugs users.
    This isn't a good point at all and drones are used to patrol the border so not sure what you mean. Regardless, I'm all for drones killing terrorist pieces of $#@! in other countries. Not like the US could just ask Pakistan to give Bin Laden over they had to get him because Pakistan was helping him hide.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Just as foreign to USA warplanes will not be tolerated in USA airspace.
    You tend to measure with 2 different measurements when it comes down to USA rights to acts of war worldwide.
    You know the USA gives Pakistan tons of aid right? Where is the US aid from other countries? Oh we're supposed to just sit and home and get attacked and write checks for everyone too?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Frankly if I had any saying in Pakistan they would be shot down. There have been too many incidents to justify these planes.
    It is just Pakistan tries to be compliant with NATO that they are forced to tolerate Pakistanian civilians and army personell to be killed by USA drones, without the USA even having the decency to appologize for innocent civilian and military lives lost.
    Pakistan can go suck a dick. The USA will do whatever it wants there as long as they are taking billions of dollars while promoting terrorism at the same time. Let them try to shoot them down if they want. Good luck with that.

    I don't see Pakistan apologizing for protecting Bin Laden and then putting in prison the guy who helped capture him. Pakistan is in no position to demand anything and they should just stay out of the military's way if they know what's good for them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    How would you feel if for example Iran would conduct military operations in the US on regular basis, Bombing those who are agains Iran and want to invade Iran, and therefore pose clear and present danger to the people of Iran?
    Iran wasn't attacked by terrorists and the US is not aiding or harboring terrorists hellbent on the destruction of Iran. The US is not funding, training, or arming terrorists carrying out attacks on the Iranian people.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    Your embassy was attacked in Lybia (a country that US helped to put into total anarcy ant turmoil), your ambassador was murdered. This was considered an outrage in the US,, attacking US citizents on US terretory.
    How is that different from what US is doing over for example Pakistan? Regularly killing people they do not like for what ever reason on pakistany ground.
    It's way different. I'm honestly amazed you guys don't get it. A US ambassador being killed is the same thing as the US using drones to kill Al Qaeda members? What?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    This whole obsession the US has about dominating the world has caused us more problems than it has eliminated. But when you look at the business behind creating war you can see that there will be some big lobbyists on the sideline pumping money into politicians to make these decicions.
    I don't like the whole empire thing either but as long as people want to hurt the United States I have no problem with them eliminating those people. And you have really nothing to say about it, it's going on and will continue until they are all gone. Pakistan, Libya, and whomever else obviously are in no position to stop it. Superpower flexing its muscle.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Iran wasn't attacked by terrorists and the US is not aiding or harboring terrorists hellbent on the destruction of Iran. The US is not funding, training, or arming terrorists carrying out attacks on the Iranian people.
    lol, you do know that the US supported the Irak in the Irak/Iran war? Weapons, supplies, you name it. 20 years later the Irak was the enemy #1, with their huge arsenal of weapons of mass destruction...isn't that what Rumsfeld and your government told you? They wouldn't lie, or would they? Click here to enlarge But hey, it's only Irak after all... So who cares as long as there is a justification to keep your weapon industry rolling?
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    Sticky your reply to me and David displays excacly the mentality the Americans have.

    "USA can do what ever it wants as long as it is in the interest of the USofA. Other factors do-not-matter, EVER."

    You can be pretty sure that US is conductiong operations within Iran already, just as they are in Syria, Pakistan, were in Egypt and Libya. anything else is ignorrance.

    Killing innocent people in Pakistan (not talking about Bin Laden because he was shot) using drones is very similar to your Ambassador being killed. Both innocent, both on their own ground.

    Take the time and read through some of the wikileaks documents and you can see how widely the US is operating.
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    How would you like to live in a dystopian world where robots fly around your city all day, and you know at any moment they could fire a devastating missile near you? When they leave, would you forget about it, or want to do something about it?
    The sad truth is many readers having read that question will think I’m referencing some fiction novel, or possible conspiracy theory. To these readers, I recommend reading more about the world around you.

    I am of course referencing the drone attacks currently happening in Pakistan. Now that the election has concluded, we must focus on the current political issues — the drone attacks being one of the biggest. According to Time Magazine, these attacks have been in effect since 2004, and have somewhat recently been stepped up by President Barack Obama. They are controlled by the CIA (not the U.S. Military as many believe), and are a part of the “War on Terror” campaign.

    These attacks have caused a lot of controversy in the United States, and the world. U.N. Human Rights CommissionerNavi Pillay questioned the legality of this practice, saying it was “outside the military chain of command.”

    While the legality is one end of the argument, the morality is another. Many argue these attacks are amoral, as they offer no fighting chance for the Pakistanis. This isn’t the biggest moral issue, however; the largest and most controversial issue is the reported death of civilians.

    While there are differing reports on the number of civilian casualties, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, out of the 1,658 to 2,597 estimated deaths, somewhere between 391 and 780 of them are civilians. An estimated 160 of these are children.

    For those wondering how so many innocents are being killed, the method of these drones is to find a location where a senior Al-Qaeda or Taliban leader resides, and fire a large missile at the area. This causes a large explosion that, while usually killing the leader, often kills many innocents near the explosion. After the explosion, many civilians rush to the scene to try and help, and are killed from a follow-up missile strike.

    Knowing all of this, it’s very difficult to dismiss the ethical ramifications of these attacks. Some may argue this is just war, and people get hurt; as long as we’re protecting our country, we’re doing the right thing.

    We are not protecting our country by using drones; we are making it more vulnerable.

    My argument as to why this is the case is slightly unconventional in our current political climate. We seem to only think about dealing with problems immediately. We shy away from thinking any more than a couple of years into the future. But when it comes to these attacks, we desperately need to think toward the future — 10 to 20 years into the future.

    These attacks are having a huge psychological effect on the residents of Pakistan. One BBC reporter, Ahmed WaliMujeeb, was able to experience Waziristan, where the majority of attacks are taking place. He said, “I witnessed the fear, stress and depression this causes for the tribal communities.”

    We are creating a monstrous fear storm in Pakistan, and it is all targeted toward America. We need to think about how this fear we are creating will only breed more terrorism.

    “Terrorism is the warfare of the weak, the recourse of those desperate for a cause that cannot win by conventional means,” said Clark R. McCauley, a professor of psychology.

    Children growing up in these villages are growing up in fear. They feel weak and helpless because of the United States. When they get older, after all is said and done, many will inevitably want to exact revenge for the terrible destruction they experienced in their youth.

    By performing these drone attacks, we are recruiting future terrorists. Some may have the argument that sending troops into the country would have the same effect. While I have no definitive proof against this argument, I believe that due to the significantly fewer civilian casualties, the fear would be far less than it is now. As Iraq and Afghanistan have shown, innocents would still be able to leave their homes and go about their daily lives — not in the normal manner, but much more so than with the drones.

    Despite saving a few American lives by not sending troops into Pakistan, we are potentially costing lives, possibly innocent ones, to a future terrorist attack. Just as many have argued the bomb on Hiroshima saved many other lives by ending the war, I believe removing these drones and sending troops in their place, while adding some risk now, will save a lot of lives in the future. We all know how terrible 9/11 was and made us feel; let us not encourage a repeat.
    http://www.dailybarometer.com/drone-...5#.UKOxMmZ5mSP

    Some excellent points here. If they way that we are killing terrorists only serves to create more terrorists, logically we will never be done and innocent victims will continue to be killed in the process. In the meantime, we send billions of dollars to the leaders of these countries, which no doubt get funnelled to the organizations which we are trying to shut down. This is senseless.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Iran wasn't attacked by terrorists and the US is not aiding or harboring terrorists hellbent on the destruction of Iran. The US is not funding, training, or arming terrorists carrying out attacks on the Iranian people.



    It's way different. I'm honestly amazed you guys don't get it. A US ambassador being killed is the same thing as the US using drones to kill Al Qaeda members? What?



    I don't like the whole empire thing either but as long as people want to hurt the United States I have no problem with them eliminating those people. And you have really nothing to say about it, it's going on and will continue until they are all gone. Pakistan, Libya, and whomever else obviously are in no position to stop it. Superpower flexing its muscle.
    Joe, you make no sense here. You are against the US flying a drone over a foreign country and killing a US citizen but that same US drone can kill a non-US citizen? Where is the due process you talk about for the non-US citizen.

    The US should not be allowed to operate without regard to international laws.
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    I will quit being rude if you quit being stupid.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
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    Joe, you make no sense here. You are against the US flying a drone over a foreign country and killing a US citizen but that same US drone can kill a non-US citizen? Where is the due process you talk about for the non-US citizen.

    The US should not be allowed to operate without regard to international laws.
    In all of the countries where the US is operating the drones, there is approval from the governments to do so. That is my understating, anyway. I think there is a strong argument that these are basically puppet leaders that are on the take for the foreign aid.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
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    In all of the countries where the US is operating the drones, there is approval from the governments to do so. That is my understating, anyway. I think there is a strong argument that these are basically puppet leaders that are on the take for the foreign aid.
    Pakistan has approved no such use. The drones flying there have been launched from bases within afganistan which why there is so much uproar from the Pakistan government. That aside however, killing ANYONE in these circumstances without due process or a trial of any kind is not right.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
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    Pakistan has approved no such use. The drones flying there have been launched from bases within afganistan which why there is so much uproar from the Pakistan government. That aside however, killing ANYONE in these circumstances without due process or a trial of any kind is not right.
    You are correct on Pakistan, and I agree with the rest of your post as well.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Apparently to your governement they are all enemies.
    Enemies to who exactly? The USA is not at war with Pakistan for instance.
    I think it is the USA's own business if they fly their own drones above their own country.
    It is a whole different story if a foreign plane, manned or not, flies above a souvereign country killing their citizens, claiming they are in violation of the foreign plane owners laws. Laws that do not apply in the country that is under attack.
    So I would feel much more comfortable if all these drones would only fly over the USA, where they belong.
    Well it might make you "feel" more comfortable, but it would make the world less safe. You think terrorists in constant fear and hiding is a bad thing? Let's turn off the satellites too; take the battleships and aircraft carriers out of international waters, dry-dock the nuclear subs too. Let's just assume that everyone is behaving themselves. I mean, after all what indication have they given us that they want to hurt us?

    Obviously we are not targeting Pakistani citizens. We are targeting the terrorists that have infiltrated their country. Infiltrated is probably too strong of a word given the relative insecurity of most boarders in the middle east.

    To our government "they are all enemies". This whole argument is absurd and ignorant. If they were "all enemies" we wouldn't waste time with drones, we have much more destructive, and far less surgical means of eradicating human beings.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    America also hides terrorists and war chriminals,, have done for years,decates, look at Bin Laden for example, it was the product of CIA.

    They fund terrorists, train them and use them when they do not want the US to be affiliated with a killing.
    A car bomb going off in the parlament building in the middle of Damascus is one example of a CIA operation, a terrorist act accepted by the US because they want Assad gone. Before the CIA proxy attacks in Syria by so called oposition groups, demonstrators started, Syria was in fact one of the few countries in the world where Christian/Muslim/all other religions could live togeather in peace.
    Now, a car bomb goes off killing women, children, civilians and local police.
    US training, US technology, US intelligence.

    The thing is that USA has for a long time considered it to be above international law. Killing anyone they want to kill in any country, even their own, all classes, all religion, all ages, without a real reason, proof of crime, law/order and a fair trial.

    But it's all done in the name of protecting the American way of life.
    LOL.

    You left out every other major super power doing the same thing. Every one of them has elite special forces and secretive government programs for all sort of covert operations. This is the excepted way of the world. Security and information are NOT open - in any country. We have official titles with "secret" in them...and a lot of higher ranking clearance levels that aren't even discussed publicly.

    When people say that a country kills "without reason", it just goes to show that they is no real argument. Since, in fact, your whole argument has no motive. No individual or country does anything without motive; less they are crazy. US military and intelligence is calculating; not crazy.

    As far as constitutions and checks and balances, and the rights of individual citizens - I still think the US stands above the rest. We have such a well designed system that we can have morons running it like Obama, and we are still somewhat insulated from total collapse.

    If people want to live in lala land where none of this $#@! goes on; be my guest - just call me when the shuttle lands.

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