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Thread: Brainstorm thread

              
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    Brainstorm thread

    I think that there are ways that we can get these cars to make more power. I say this because besides going bigger turbos theres bolt ons and thats it. I think things like running 100% e85, cams, playing with compression, bigger throttle body, and porting heads are all viable things to do to this car and i honestly believe we can get these things to 500whp on stock turbos.

    Any way im making this thread as a way for the community to talk about new ideas for these cars to go fast.Click here to enlarge

    Any contributions or comments are welcome, as long as they further the discussion in this thread.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

  2. #ADS

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    I like brainstorming threads like this and it's always fun to explore other option but it in all honesty just makes more sense to look into upgraded turbo to go past 500 than tinkering with other ares to push the stockers.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I like brainstorming threads like this and it's always fun to explore other option but it in all honesty just makes more sense to look into upgraded turbo to go past 500 than tinkering with other ares to push the stockers.
    I know what you mean but raising hp on stock turbos will also raise hp for the big turbo guys.

    I honestly am waiting to get Vargas's gtx kit.

    But can you imagine making close to 600whp just on rb's with their amazing power curve.

    I think 100% e85 can give us an extra 20-30whp over the guys already using 50/50 and then cams and head work as well as messing with compression could add alot possibly 50+whp.

    if you look at The flow numbers for our heads they kind of suck. When ported out dzenno's heads flowed right around what stock 2jz heads flow and those are considered to be sucky heads. Also i know that flow isnt everything you can have a head with high flow numbers and a head with lower flow numbers may make more power just because of the general design. At least thats what ive heard from a few head porters.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    100% E85 will only yield maybe 10 more hp. The problem is the amount of air the turbos can flow. Meth preturbo could get you up there, but not to 500whp. Already I at 17.5psi with E85 only because I don't want to cook the turbos. I have enough octane on 50-50 mix to hit 19+ psi. I have the siren sound on cold start but it quiets down when warm. You may be able to hit 500whp... but not for long. The sound is getting worse even at 17.5psi. Nitrous is the other option of course.

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    right now i max out map 5... im on jb4 g5 newest iso firmware FBO 50/50 e85/93

    if you look at the big picture people make 450whp on 50/50 e85/93 fbo so you say another 10whp thats 460whp and then head work and cams which doesnt require running more boost to make more power. On a 3.2l R32 vw cams make 30whp i know this doesnt exactly relate to our cars but cams tend to make at least 20whp and head work we will see when dzenno dynos but i predict at least 20-30whp so right there you have 50whp on top of 460whp which puts you comfortably at 500whp. Now i know it would be easier to just but upgraded turbos but whp stock turbo car is pretty damn respectable. I would certainly purchase cams and a good port job if i could make that power and then when i do go big turbos i could put down some serious numbers...
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Cams and head work will cost more than turbos and will yield less. Also while cams and head work make more power at the same boost level, they do so by flowing more air. Flowing more air means more PWM and more strain on the turbos. Yea it will help them a bit, but they are still the bottle neck. I originally got an FMIC to lower my PWM and make the turbos last longer. Never happened because while the pressure drop went down, the amount of air making it into the engine (colder air is more dense) went up and resulted in even higher PWM and shorter turbo life. I am enjoying the extra power though of course!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Cams and head work will cost more than turbos and will yield less. Also while cams and head work make more power at the same boost level, they do so by flowing more air. Flowing more air means more PWM and more strain on the turbos. Yea it will help them a bit, but they are still the bottle neck. I originally got an FMIC to lower my PWM and make the turbos last longer. Never happened because while the pressure drop went down, the amount of air making it into the engine (colder air is more dense) went up and resulted in even higher PWM and shorter turbo life. I am enjoying the extra power though of course!
    im not saying cams and head work are cheap or easy im just saying if you want the most power out of these cars it has to be done eventually.. which begs the question why has no one made cams yet?
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
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    im not saying cams and head work are cheap or easy im just saying if you want the most power out of these cars it has to be done eventually.. which begs the question why has no one made cams yet?
    Because cams need to match the head and turbos and no one has upgraded the turbos significantly until recently. You can order custom ground cams for anything, its just not worth it at this point in time imho.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
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    im not saying cams and head work are cheap or easy im just saying if you want the most power out of these cars it has to be done eventually.. which begs the question why has no one made cams yet?
    I would like to see the N54 with a big single turbo with upgraded valvetrain rev out to 9k rpm's and see how much power it could make.. That would be awesome to drive!!

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    Honestly, until Dzenno(or enrita, but I'm not 100% on what his head work consisted of) no one has done anything other than the most basic boltons. Dzenno just has a MILDLY worked head at this point compared to what's possible.At a certain point $/HP becomes unimportant and total HP becomes the only concern.

    I'm not sold on lowering the CR at all right now with the N54. Dropping the CR hurts off boost performance, gas mileage, and raises the boost threshold. In fact, the only reason to lower the CR is to have a bit of a safety net. Based on how few blown engines we've seen with some of the tunes that have been offered I think the DME is possibly good enough to DD 30+psi on a BIG turbo with aggressive timing without touching CR.

    As far as cams go, I think this is going to be an area to make big gains on a big turbo(I'm thinking ~220/~220 @.050) however the VANOS timing is going to have to be taken into consideration when getting the cams ground. There is quite a bit of adjustment to the cams being done by VANOS and Piston to Valve clearance could EASILY become an issue before you even realise it. The clearance my be great when barring the engine over static, but when the VANOS solenoids are doing their thing it's another story.
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    The air intake to turbo piping is a real restriction. Hoping someone soon comes up with a fix!

    Neil

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    In my opinion, BMW did a pretty good job with this engine. The major restriction is the stock turbos. I believe these cars have hit 11's w/ tune & tires only. Not bad for simply raising boost. These cars are severely undertuned from the factory, but have the supporting parts to make strong numbers. Not too much left in the stock turbos, since head work and cams will not help the restrictions the exhaust side of the turbos present (wich the heads can already out flow). After turbos, the next bottleneck to overcome seems to be fuel system. If the fuel system is not currently a bottleneck, then I am wondering why boost has not been turned up on the FFTEC kit (especially in the mid-range).

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    honestly i think in regards to the vishnu kit a cam would be the greatest help winding those turbos out to 9k would be insane. However i still think that a more aggressive cam some head work and fixing those intake pipes would be worth the effort. Also what would raising the compression a bit do using stock turbos? maybe to 11:1 and run the same boost. Or am i a bit undereducated in the realm of compression in relation to boost
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
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    honestly i think in regards to the vishnu kit a cam would be the greatest help winding those turbos out to 9k would be insane. However i still think that a more aggressive cam some head work and fixing those intake pipes would be worth the effort. Also what would raising the compression a bit do using stock turbos? maybe to 11:1 and run the same boost. Or am i a bit undereducated in the realm of compression in relation to boost
    In a perfect world you run as much CR as possible... however, in the real world we're limited to what we can get away with with pump gas+meth(or e85 and meth) on the street. We have seen that on the stock turbos, hybrids and "smallish" single turbos that the stock CR works well. How will it handle 10.5 or 11+? I have no idea. Will it make more power? Yes, assuming the DME isn't pulling the bottom out of the timing.

    Running more CR also means adjustments must be made to cam timing and phasing, if there is too much overlap you are effectively bleeding off compression(and boost.) That's where the difference between static and dynamic(effective) CR comes in...

    Does anyone know the: con rod ratio or how much negative deck there is in relation to the pistons?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    I would like to see the N54 with a big single turbo with upgraded valvetrain rev out to 9k rpm's and see how much power it could make.. That would be awesome to drive!!
    Not gonna happen. If you want to rev high with a BMW inline-6 the S54 is where you go.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Not gonna happen. If you want to rev high with a BMW inline-6 the S54 is where you go.
    i think our motor with some work will see 9k...
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
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    i think our motor with some work will see 9k...
    Ok if you say so...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Ok if you say so...
    why are you so skeptical about a high reving n54
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
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    why are you so skeptical about a high reving n54
    The R/S ratio is garbage and the components in the valve train aren't exactly "high rev". If we are going to brainstorm, it should probably be done within the realm of reason and not based on what is done to other platforms running completely different hardware. Otherwise we are just listing all the possible mods which has little value...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    The R/S ratio is garbage and the components in the valve train aren't exactly "high rev". If we are going to brainstorm, it should probably be done within the realm of reason and not based on what is done to other platforms running completely different hardware. Otherwise we are just listing all the possible mods which has little value...

    well in that case why hasnt anyone just run no intake to turbo piping? is there a downside to just running no pipes and turbo screen
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    I want to see true fueling upgrades, injectors/pumps at a minimum. Theres definately unused potential in the N54. Granted it may not be very cost friendly, any gain is a gain.

    Even if running 100% E85 only nets 10whp or so, it will be cheaper and pay for itself just in the lower cost of E85, not to mention getting rid of pulling out my calculator every fill up lol
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
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    well in that case why hasnt anyone just run no intake to turbo piping? is there a downside to just running no pipes and turbo screen
    Yes, lots. Screen won't do any filtering and the air that gets sucked in will be very hot.

    Neil

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    i know in the past people have tried to make better turbo inlet pipes but i havent seen any results

    im sure a custom pipe from filter to the turbos would do some good
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
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    why are you so skeptical about a high reving n54
    A bunch of reasons. Let me know when one is revving to 9k in street trim.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    The R/S ratio is garbage and the components in the valve train aren't exactly "high rev". If we are going to brainstorm, it should probably be done within the realm of reason and not based on what is done to other platforms running completely different hardware. Otherwise we are just listing all the possible mods which has little value...
    I could not have said it better.

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