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  1. #26
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    So what is the solution to stop them from smoking? Is the construction or the seals used to blame? Should he be using different seals?
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  2. #27
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    so i take it, it's white to white blue smoke?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So what is the solution to stop them from smoking? Is the construction or the seals used to blame? Should he be using different seals?
    I looked around a bit on other platform websites that were using various journal bearing turbos include the TD04 and came away with the following:
    1) The amount of oil pressure is a concern. The really experienced guys on other platforms were saying if it smoked and the turbo was deemed ok (eg new), try adding an oil restrictor and see if it lessens/eliminates the smoke. Measuring the pressure is the first step.
    2) Some guys were pretty serious about an intake restriction causing oil to get pulled into the compressor and ingested.

  4. #29
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    From what I've read the TD04s have an oil pressure spec up to 55psi max. N54's oil pressure under WOT goes to 80psi and at cruise is around 40-ish..in neutral and idle it goes down to about 25psi...i've posted these results before and it'd be great if a restrictor could be made. I'm sure it'd help a bit BUT its journal bearings here so oil volume is also important so it might be tricky to pull off a restrictor to restrict pressure while allowing enough volume to flow to the journals. Just a thought..
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    From what I've read the TD04s have an oil pressure spec up to 55psi max. N54's oil pressure under WOT goes to 80psi and at cruise is around 40-ish..in neutral and idle it goes down to about 25psi...i've posted these results before and it'd be great if a restrictor could be made. I'm sure it'd help a bit BUT its journal bearings here so oil volume is also important so it might be tricky to pull off a restrictor to restrict pressure while allowing enough volume to flow to the journals. Just a thought..
    Good thoughts. What is the stock oil line fitting at the turbo? Banjo?

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    so i take it, it's white to white blue smoke?
    Yep

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    Good thoughts. What is the stock oil line fitting at the turbo? Banjo?

    Its a rubber o-ring sealed pipe...slips in and is held in place with a T30 bolt.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    From what I've read the TD04s have an oil pressure spec up to 55psi max. N54's oil pressure under WOT goes to 80psi and at cruise is around 40-ish..in neutral and idle it goes down to about 25psi...i've posted these results before and it'd be great if a restrictor could be made. I'm sure it'd help a bit BUT its journal bearings here so oil volume is also important so it might be tricky to pull off a restrictor to restrict pressure while allowing enough volume to flow to the journals. Just a thought..
    So should turbos with a higher oil pressure spec be used instead?
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So should turbos with a higher oil pressure spec be used instead?
    Sure but I don't think anything that fits into the typical "hybrid" setup exists out there.

    FYI, during the 8 months that my car was down for head work I had my RBs shipped to Rob for inspection and they've been confirmed to be 100%. I have a brand new valve cover/gasket, took off the BMS OCC I had before, put in the RB check valve taking out a brand new OEM check valve that was in the valve cover. The head got new guides/seals/valves and obviously a new head gasket.

    Even after all this has been done the car puffs smoke at times, nothing dramatic at all but its there. At idle, there is absolutely no visible smoke. If it does happen its after a pull high into the RPMs and coming to a stop.

    At this point I can tell for certain the issue is NOT related to the PCV/valve cover or anything around it. It can still be the intake pipes or just as thought originally, too much oil pressure for the TD04 housing/seal to handle so some of it seeps through. Either way still remains to be resolved 100%. Putting on some cats in the exhaust helps (stock catback the car doesn't smoke at all) but its obviously not a solution to the problem but a workaround.

    In addition to all that, there are MANY other NEW cars on the road fully catted with OEM exhausts that smoke just about the same as mine so its not something that makes the car look to have something wrong with it. And, I also have a police siren in this colder weather. Been there always, its the acoustics of the beast with an open intake and fully catless exhaust.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    The person who stated using a different oil to "swell" seals, obviously doesn't know what kind of seals these turbos have. Oil isnt going to swell a steel piston ring.
    Not sure what seals the turbos have, and I'm not even sure that there are any turbos with less than metal seals. But the Motul 300v has a high HTHS value (high-temperature, high-shear which is the viscosity measured at 150C as opposed to other oils which only have it measured at 100C). What this means is that it has less ability to go past the turbo seals and become smoke.

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    RB Turbos have utliized gapless/stepped ring seals since the beginning, the internals are OEM un-frankenstiened units and they simply can not be bettered either. Making the compressor seal .005" wider (about the size of a hair follicle) will not amount to a hill of beans, especially considering the condition (when apparent) is from the turbine side. What this is, is what it is... without looking deeper into further external aids anyway (which I have already considered them all but as with anything there comes a point of risk vs. cost vs. benefit).

    Also whether these conditions come from the turbo seal, or PCV, is still up in the air. I do believe dzenno has some good points that indicate that even if everything is OEM factory fresh healthy, you will still see a puff here or there while cat less. Whether that is oil from the turbo/pcv, or something DI related, I sometimes wonder especially when I hear someone telling me they do not use a drop of oil but still see intermittent smoke after going cat less. But ruling that the PCV/system is definitely not the culprit when it comes to oiling is fairly ignorant IMO. The PCV valve still sucks in too many oil vapors into the intake ports (ie. not enough baffling pre-pcv valve) and the valve cover OEM cyclonic separators can't effectively handle the job well at OEM levels let alone nearly twice those power levels (ie. when the N54 is equipped with higher power producing OEM style turbos such as RBs). I have been looking into a fix here for quite some time, one is definitely needed.

    All in all you must be reasonable in regards to your oil consumption and realize that if you are consuming 1qt per 5,000 miles on a 450+rwhp driven car always in stop and go/traffic/ constant drag pulls/etc that is really no less than AMAZING. Even 1qt per 2,000 miles is not bad. Hell BMW will tell you that 1qt per 800 miles is considered normal for a STOCK car and kick you down the line. So monitor your oil consumption. Oil does not regenerate so it is a great way to tell really what kind of health your engine as a whole is in. A turbo issue typically will result in VERY high oil consumption, it will be very evident (ie. 1qt per 500 miles). A puff here or there though although is annoying and at times an be embarrassing is typically the nature of the beast on a cat less car driven and beat on everyday, as long as there is no evidently large oil consumption rate you just have to cope or put some cats back on.

    I am not going to get tangled up in this thread, I realize I do not have a big fan club here especially from the moderator due to my lack of sponsorship. Plus I can only reply once a day and quite frankly I do not have time for it anyway- but figured some quick real talk would be helpful.

    As always, RB Turbo has a warranty that can not be rivaled, so if in the event you do condemn the turbos you know how to reach me.

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  12. #37
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    Thanks for your input Rob.
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Rb's use a step gap compressor, and turbine piston ring? Have you ever posted pictures of the internals of your turbos? The only pictures I have ever seen are of housings and completed chra's. Do you assemble your chra's yourself? Here Rob goes again. I clearly stated there is nothing at all wrong with his turbos and its an inherent MHI design issue, and he gets super defensive. Break one down and post pictures of the internal parts like I plan on doing when all my parts arrive. I already had a cut out housing made so everyone can see exactly what is going inside. Calling having better parts manufactured "Frankenstein" shows pure ignorance and honestly a lack of experience in this industry. If price were no option every turbo would have these parts in them but price is ALWAYS number one so they are not. Again rob attacking me after being nice is ironic. And Rob not a single person here is complaining about oil consumption. The issue is smoking, show me where BMW tells its customers excessive smoking is normal. We have built 1000+ HP turbo motors that don't smoke. I clearly stated I didn't think there was anything wrong with your turbos but they are stuck with the inherent mhi smoking issue. We have seen it for years. So again people, I agree we do not know exactly what the problem is (seals in the turbo, PVC, combination of both, etc etc) but I am actually making improvements to the internals to try to help on the turbo side, and doing so at a hefty cost. Rob can say what he wants about not being able to improve on an "OEM" product, but this is just not the case. If it was why do companies make aftermarket pistons, rods, etc? Next Rob will be calling a built motor a "Frankenstein" because the internals have been changed. Manufactures use lower cost design and materials because they are making 500,000 turbos and it is just not cost effective to do otherwise. Hey if OEM is best, everyone just leave your cars stock and go about your merry way.

    Side note: Rob sells his turbos for $3000 a set and has sold how many sets??? Yet he refuses to pay $100 a month for the ability to talk to his customers and answer questions on the forums? Rob might be a great guy but this sends a pretty bad message to your current or possible future customers.
    I feel I need to defend Rob Beck here, I do have one set of his turbos to be installed tomorrow, but I was never one to not criticize where is due.

    I don't think he was being unpolite in his answer. I for one I am glad to know that my center core is OEM, I am a fan of "as little modification as needed". There is so much R&D done by big companies that I will trust them for sure instead of a proposed alternative solution done by a small company.

    He may not want to show us/you more about the turbo internals because there may be some design secrets that he is keeping for himself. But you can always spend $3k and find them out Click here to enlarge

    Until you have a set of Stage 2 turbos at least in R&D (let alone selling them) I think that this discussion is not fair at all to Rob Beck. I know from experience in my field that there is such a long road between designing/prototyping and actually releasing a product on the market.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Rb's use a step gap compressor, and turbine piston ring? Have you ever posted pictures of the internals of your turbos? The only pictures I have ever seen are of housings and completed chra's. Do you assemble your chra's yourself? Here Rob goes again. I clearly stated there is nothing at all wrong with his turbos and its an inherent MHI design issue, and he gets super defensive. Break one down and post pictures of the internal parts like I plan on doing when all my parts arrive. I already had a cut out housing made so everyone can see exactly what is going inside. Calling having better parts manufactured "Frankenstein" shows pure ignorance and honestly a lack of experience in this industry. If price were no option every turbo would have these parts in them but price is ALWAYS number one so they are not. Again rob attacking me after being nice is ironic. And Rob not a single person here is complaining about oil consumption. The issue is smoking, show me where BMW tells its customers excessive smoking is normal. We have built 1000+ HP turbo motors that don't smoke. I clearly stated I didn't think there was anything wrong with your turbos but they are stuck with the inherent mhi smoking issue. We have seen it for years. So again people, I agree we do not know exactly what the problem is (seals in the turbo, PVC, combination of both, etc etc) but I am actually making improvements to the internals to try to help on the turbo side, and doing so at a hefty cost. Rob can say what he wants about not being able to improve on an "OEM" product, but this is just not the case. If it was why do companies make aftermarket pistons, rods, etc? Next Rob will be calling a built motor a "Frankenstein" because the internals have been changed. Manufactures use lower cost design and materials because they are making 500,000 turbos and it is just not cost effective to do otherwise. Hey if OEM is best, everyone just leave your cars stock and go about your merry way.

    Side note: Rob sells his turbos for $3000 a set and has sold how many sets??? Yet he refuses to pay $100 a month for the ability to talk to his customers and answer questions on the forums? Rob might be a great guy but this sends a pretty bad message to your current or possible future customers.
    It could be a good idea to refrain commenting on a competitor's product or business practices unless you have the first hand experience about them. You assumed his product to be less than what it is and posting wrong assumptions about RB turbos is not cool. I think Rob does the right thing when he corrects false information about RBs, such as regarding the step gap seals. He is easy to reach, replies quickly and his contact info is easy to find. Rob is useful resource of information, but I feel he is not quite appreciated as such in this forum.

  15. #40
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    Why cant we all just get along?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Side note: Rob sells his turbos for $3000 a set and has sold how many sets??? Yet he refuses to pay $100 a month for the ability to talk to his customers and answer questions on the forums? Rob might be a great guy but this sends a pretty bad message to your current or possible future customers.
    I have to disagree with this. As mentioned by the poster above, Rob provides excellent service when it comes to communicating to his customers or potential customers as I have experienced first hand. Rob choses to be more vocal on other forums so he can be easily reached.

    Anyway this was a thread relating to a specific issue with RBs so I don't see why it should become a Vargas vs RB thread again.
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    How does one "check" the PCV system?

    I'm having smoking issues with my stock turbos. Happens when I'm just cruising around the city with some engine breaking. Recently uninstalled the RB valve and it smoked again.

    Also, I think I may have excessive turbo gurgle. It pretty much gurgles every time I press my clutch while changing gears slowly.
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  18. #43
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    Rob, pull whatever it is out of your ass.

    Tony, just stay out of RB threads.

    <3 you both




  19. #44
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    I just dont want to see Vargas go by the wayside because he gets tired of all the complaining that he gets from a group that he is trying to help.




  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    You are a fan of a little modification as possible? I thought this entire thread as made to address an oiling issue that isn't a secret? And design secrets? Its an OEM TD04 center section.
    I find this discussion constructive.

    One of the nice things about the RB upgrade is that you can use the OEM water and coolant lines. Turbo Dynamics from UK (a big company as far as I know) did not manage to do this on their Stage 2, and also (as I recently found out) their turbine wheel is smaller than the RB one. This tells me that some clever ideas went into designing the RB turbos, and also the dyno results (and lack of other major problems besides the smoking) back up their design. I am just saying that it is possible that you may encounter some design challenges down the road, not that you won't be able to solve them eventually.

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    I do believe dzenno has some good points that indicate that even if everything is OEM factory fresh healthy, you will still see a puff here or there while cat less. Whether that is oil from the turbo/pcv, or something DI related, I sometimes wonder especially when I hear someone telling me they do not use a drop of oil but still see intermittent smoke after going cat less. But ruling that the PCV/system is definitely not the culprit when it comes to oiling is fairly ignorant IMO.
    @Rob@RBTurbo, my bad. I feel that I need to clarify my previous statement where I said smoking was "definitely not" PCV related. That was wrong as I simply don't know and assumptions should always be stated as such. What I "should" have said is that replacing the old valve cover/gasket and anything PCV related on my own car as well as trying the RB check valve did not "ELIMINATE ALL" smoking issues. Oil consumption on my car, and considering I've done about 100 pulls in the last two weeks, is still the same as before. I'm 1 tick before adding a quart and its been about 1500km. Turbos are new, its NOT the turbos. Its also NOT the head was just done with all new OEM guides/seals. Its also not bottom end as the engine was again both compression and leak down tested after reinstalling the head. So there you have it, MYSTERY Click here to enlarge

    The fact of the matter is that no one knows with any level of certainty what it is that is causing this sporadic issue that is also there with STOCK turbos. Its also there with altered PCV systems (e.g. OCC in there or a different check valve) as well as OEM PCV systems. Bickering needs to stop and people should try to do some testing of their own rather than just abusing the keyboard and wasting everyone's time.


    I fully support anyone trying to come to the bottom of this issue, IF it can indeed be solved. That includes tons of time Rob's already spent researching this issue with me personally and countless hours of phone conversations and emails. Tony is also trying something on the turbo side and I'm hopeful that may shed some light on it as that hasn't been tried yet and I fully support Tony there as well.

    At the end of the day, AGAIN, no one knows what causes this on some cars while not on others. There are things that can be tried and I fully support research on this topic by anyone.

    I don't support Tony vs. Rob arguments and the community jumping in then to pick sides, those go nowhere and do NOTHING. I support both Tony and Rob 100%. Rob is and has been a huge asset to this community. In my case his customer service was nothing but stellar. I've kept my car after the lease was up as RBs delivered.

    I also support Tony for his research with the N54 and in particular on this topic, as it can prove or disprove the turbos from being the cause here, and more importantly his work on the Stage 3 upgrade. I feel he is an honest man and an enthusiast just like Rob. Its only natural to see arguments go back and forth as both have of you have unique passion for your work and where there's passion good stuff usually comes out of it in the end.

    I wish the best of luck to both of you and hope you guys will find a common tongue in this game and minimize arguments. I'd love to even see you cooperate in some shape or form on the Stage 3 and bring that to market together. This community definitely should not pick sides when it comes to N54 performance turbo builders that's for sure as it only wastes good energy that can be used for bigger/better things in the future.

    Peace! Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    I am not going to get tangled up in this thread, I realize I do not have a big fan club here especially from the moderator due to my lack of sponsorship.
    First of all I'm not a moderator and secondly I have nothing against you. You are posting aren't you?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    Why cant we all just get along?
    Because we own 3 Series BMW's.
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    Vargas

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This is exactly what I am trying to help eliminate
    Exactly! With all due respect, you haven't done anything yet. Its easy to tell everyone - in a thread that you didn't create - how your product is going to change the world. Until you actually have a set on the road running 20# day in and day out you shouldn't have anything to say. Sticky did a great job of bumping this thread with the "why" stuff, and I guess I agree that he is trying to support a paying vendor, but come on. Rob Beck's turbos have been out for years with a few people with smoking problems, guess what most people with stockers and a catless exhaust have the same deal.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I am not satisfied bringing a product to the market I feel can be improved upon.
    LOL please let us know when you do.

    I laugh when you came out with all these time frames and now - after you dogged Rob and made sure we all knew about his delays - you are back peddling with all this R&D BS. Just funny to me.

    And BTW Rob's product and customer service is second to none - You will have to wait for several months and over 100 sets on the road before you can receive the same accolades.
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    This post by Surquhar is hidden due to excessive negative ratings. Click expand to view the post.


    2017 Porsche 911

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