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Thread: Best Race Gas??

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    Best Race Gas??

    i get my race fuel for my race bike by the pallet as my sponsor pays half and the other rider takes the other half of it. we run U4.4 by VP race fuel company

    well some of my 5 gallon cans of the U4.4 were damaged during shipment so i have some credit coming to me. i wanted to try some in my car though just to try out since i get a good deal and i have credit for some coming

    after reading what happened to PG with the race gas i want to make sure i get the right kind for my car.

    so after reading that thread i have to use only unleaded right?? so after doing some reading i have come to only 2 that i can use in my car that being the VP100 or aka Streetblaze 100 then the VP Motosport 109. the VP100 is actually street legal which i didn't know

    so since i only have exp with the race fuel for my race bikes the guys that run this stuff in the cars all the time which one would you get for my car?? i have a NA engine with just bolt ons no SC or no Stroker

    say price wasn't an issue bc i can get the two for the same deal. i am thinking of taking half my credit for the car fuel and the other half for the U4.4 i need.

    i know it is a waste kinda but i would like to see how much better the car runs with it and see if there is a difference etc and save some for when i do a dyno run on the car so i can see the difference on the dyno btw pump and race gas. i know what a difference it makes on my race bike not just more power but how much better the bike runs and crisper throttle response so i am sure the car would be similar results no??

    thanks in advance and worst case if nobody has exp with any of it i will just get the street legal one VP 100 since i know i can put that in the car. here is the spec info on the two if anyone wants to see

    http://www.vpracingfuels.com/road-racing-drifting.html
    08 E92 M3
    06 F250
    09 CRF 450/10 CRF 250

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    There is no better unleaded fuel than the MS 109.

    You don't have to worry about what happened to PG as A. PG has no idea what he is doing and B. he decided to use Q16.

    No reason for you to use a leaded fuel whatsoever. I have always chosen MS109 and have run a few tankfulls through the car, no problems.

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    I definitely agree that you should NOT run leaded gas in your car. As sticky said, ms109 is a greeeeeat unlreaded fuel and I would definitely go with that! Look forward to seeing your dyno showing the gains.

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    This may by a noob question and sorry H Bomb for the thread jack but if your car is not tuned for high octane gas is there any cons in running race fuel/high octane gas?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 808E90 Click here to enlarge
    This may by a noob question and sorry H Bomb for the thread jack but if your car is not tuned for high octane gas is there any cons in running race fuel/high octane gas?
    No cons at all as long as you don't go leaded.

    The ECU will advance timing automatically and you will enjoy a very slight performance bump. With a tune, more so.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No cons at all as long as you don't go leaded.

    The ECU will advance timing automatically and you will enjoy a very slight performance bump. With a tune, more so.
    I need to get me a OE EZ Tune ...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 808E90 Click here to enlarge
    I need to get me a OE EZ Tune ...
    Yes, yes you certainly do. Would be perfect for someone like you over in Hawaii!

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    I used to run Torco 118 NOS race fuel all the time with no issues at all, its an insanely powerful fuel.. But hard to get....

    For races I will stick with the Torco or VP C16 , for regular fun just 91+meth.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    I used to run Torco 118 NOS race fuel all the time with no issues at all, its an insanely powerful fuel.. But hard to get....

    For races I will stick with the Torco or VP C16 , for regular fun just 91+meth.
    So that was leaded fuel?
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Some of you should look into using E85 ethanol gas. Tuning will be needed and in some cases, larger injectors. E85 is equivalent to 105/110(+/-) octane, costs $2.39 a gallon, and its great for F/I cars or high compression N/A motors. My GT3 has been running it for 2500 miles. It runs smoother at high rpms, provides more power, and gives the same advantages of running MS109 at 1/3 of the cost... Do some research on it; you'll see. The only con, is that in some places, E85 gas is hard to find.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GT3 Click here to enlarge
    Some of you should look into using E85 ethanol gas. Tuning will be needed and in some cases, larger injectors. E85 is equivalent to 105/110(+/-) octane, costs $2.39 a gallon, and its great for F/I cars or high compression N/A motors. My GT3 has been running it for 2500 miles. It runs smoother at high rpms, provides more power, and gives the same advantages of running MS109 at 1/3 of the cost... Do some research on it; you'll see. The only con, is that in some places, E85 gas is hard to find.
    Ya, it is great, but not in our case as our motors aren't set up for it. You need larger injectors etc. etc. It also is hard to find and you go through it faster as it doesn't hold the same energy per gallon as gasoline so you need more even though it is higher octane.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ya, it is great, but not in our case as our motors aren't set up for it. You need larger injectors etc. etc. It also is hard to find and you go through it faster as it doesn't hold the same energy per gallon as gasoline so you need more even though it is higher octane.
    You dont always need larger injectors. My GT3 didnt need anything, and no Porsche comes from the factory set up to run E85 gas. It is said that if switching to E85, that the injectors will need 30% more output, but in many high performance cars, they are already big enough to adjust. Tuning is mainly only needed to get the A/F ratio tweaked accordingly. You'll will see a 10% decrease in gas mileage per tank, though. If you got 200 miles per tank, then you'd get about 180 per tank, which is only an extra $2.40 E85 gallon of gas difference... It burns cooler than gas.

    Here is a great article on E85 gas an supercharged BMW 3-series(I dont know which 3-series they refer to):
    I had a question over email the other day about an E85 converted, supercharged BMW 3-Series. After answering the question, I thought it would be helpful and interesting to demonstrate to all my readers here and followers (on facebook and twitter) the advantage of using E85 on a supercharged set-up and the possibilities it opens up during your build up.
    As an introduction, E85 is an alcoholic fuel that is 85% Ethanol and 15% Gasoline. E85 is a high octane fuel with an Octane rating of around 102 Octane points which, when compared to gasoline and it’s 92 Octane points rating, has an additional 10 points of Octane.
    The advantage of using a higher octane fuel is that the in-cylinder flame front travel rate of a higher octane mixture is slower than that of a lower octane mixture. If you had watched my video series on tuning your timing and timing trends (here), then you may remember that the flame front travel speed is affected by many factors including mixture density and in cylinder pressure.
    Having a higher octane mixture, slows down the burn rate. This means that we can increase our boost level, our compression ratio, or our timing advance and return the mixture to a normal burn rate similar to that of gasoline, having a similar level of ’safety’ in the cylinder, a similar mixture volatility, but albeit at a higher power level.
    To put some exact figures to this phenomenon, switching from 92 Octane premium gasoline to 102 Octane E85 allows you ONE of the following options:
    Increasing your boost level by 6psi of boost above your gasoline maximum boost level.
    Increasing your static compression ratio by 2.5 compression points above your gasoline maximum safe compression level.
    Increasing your timing advance by 13 degrees of timing above what you would use for a gasoline tune.
    (Or some combination of the three such as a 3psi boost increase with a 1 point compression hike, resulting in a similar overall increase in compression pressure and flame front travel speed).
    Now the advantage of this high octane feature of E85 is that it allows you to build a more aggressive set-up, to reach a higher power goal, while having a similar margin of safety to that of gasoline. The real world benefit of this kind of set-up, is that you have two new possibilities opening up for you in your power build:
    You can now reach higher power goals, on E85 at the same red-line, and with the same static compression ratio, by being able to run more boost on the same motor, safely.
    You can now build high compression supercharged set-ups, because you will no longer need to take apart your engine to replace your pistons, to lower your compression ratio, or severely retard your timing to be able to boost a factory high compression motor.
    The second interesting fact about E85 ethanol based fuels is that it reaches stoichiometry at an air:fuel ratio of 9.7:1 compared to an air:fuel ratio of 14.7:1 for gasoline.
    By dividing those two figures into each-other it becomes apparent that an engine running on E85 needs 48% more fuel flow compared to the exact same engine running on Gasoline. For example, a 400hp 6 cylinder engine will require about 400cc/min injectors for a gasoline setup, but it would need almost 600cc/min injectors to be converted to Ethanol.
    The advantage of this information, is that a car that is built to run on E85, has enough injector to also run on gasoline. The benefit of this kind of set-up is that having a dual-map ECU, with large injectors designed for E85, can be ‘detuned’ to reduce it’s injector duty cycle by 48% to run on gasoline. This is essentially how ‘flex fuel’ cars are mapped to run on either fuel, namely because their factory fuel system is oversized (for gasoline) allowing them to run either E85 or Gasoline.
    The third interesting fact about E85 is that it has a LOWER energy output than gasoline.
    E85 has can produce 25.2 Mega Joules of Energy per Liter of fuel, while Gasoline can produce a more potent 33.7 Mega Joules of Energy per Liter.
    Your first thought, might be that gasoline is thus able to produce about 30% more horsepower on the same engine (because gasoline is a more potent fuel chemically speaking), however when you factor in that we are injecting 48% more fuel with E85 to reach a complete combustion and stoichiometery, then the net result of those two figures is that E85 has the potential to deliver 11% more horsepower on the same exact engine, when compared to Gaslone.
    This 11% boost in power, is based on a straight gasoline to E85 conversion. More power can be found using E85 by taking advantage of the higher octane rating and tuning specifically for E85 or adding more boost and compression into the mix.
    The advantage of this 11% power boost is that you can make more power with the same amount of airflow. The benefit here, is that if you have an engine that is maxed out at say 450hp because that is the maximum amount of air your supercharger can flow, you can add in another 11% (or 50hp!) by converting from gasoline to E85, without having to upgrade your airflow side of the equation (blower included).
    So to illustrate how you can use the Power calculator to plan your E85 fuel conversion, I have prepared a short video showing the process. This video includes 3 main differences from using the calculator for a gasoline setup as follows:
    The target power level you enter into the power calculator should be 11% lower than your actual power level. For example, if you are shooting for 450hp, then entering a target of 450/1.11 = 405hp will give you the right airflow side of the equation, including your intake, exhaust, and supercharger systems.
    Once the calculator has given you the results of your airflow side of your build-up as described in step #1, you can add 2.5points of compression ratio to your maximum safe compression level. That is to say, that if the calculator recommends an 8:1 compression level as the maximum static compression ratio, then on E85, you can run up to 8+2.5 = 10.5:1 points of static compression and still have a safe set-up.This makes E85 an amazing option for supercharging cars that come from the factory with a higher compression ratio such as 10.5:1 or higher because E85 will allow you to boost this engine WITHOUT the need to take the engine apart and lower the compression ratio.
    To calculate your fuel demands on E85, you need to inflate your power target by 48% as we explained earlier. So shooting for the same 450hp target, we should enter a target of 405*1.48 = 600hp to the calculator to give us the correct injector, fuel pump, and fuel line sizing for an E85 build-up.

    (If you are reading this on an external site such as facebook, please visit our site to see the complete article)
    Example application:
    A great example of an Ethanol conversion is the new Tri-Fuel Lotus Exige. The exige is a true Tri-Fuel care capable of running on Gasoline, Ethanol, or methanol.
    The only modifications performed to the car as per the official lotus press release are:
    Sensors to detect alcohol content
    Slightly modified software for engine management controls/ECU’s over ethanol/gasoline and flex fuel
    Fuel lines compatible with alcohol
    Higher flow rate fuel pump and injectors
    Fuel tank material, compatible with alcohol
    Making no changes to the airflow side of the engine, lotus is able to coax out an extra 51 hp or 19% more power from the same power plant simply by switching to an 11% more potent fuel mixture (as we mentioned earlier) coupled with another 8% coaxed through an alcohol specific tune with more aggressive mapping to take advantage of the higher octane and slower burn rate properties of alcoholic fuels.
    Link to article: http://www.superchargerperformance.c...uel-conversion

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    MS109 its the best you can get
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    The only thing that sucks in some areas its not sold, so that would make it hard to fill up.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GT3 Click here to enlarge
    You dont always need larger injectors. My GT3 didnt need anything, and no Porsche comes from the factory set up to run E85 gas. It is said that if switching to E85, that the injectors will need 30% more output, but in many high performance cars, they are already big enough to adjust. Tuning is mainly only needed to get the A/F ratio tweaked accordingly. You'll will see a 10% decrease in gas mileage per tank, though. If you got 200 miles per tank, then you'd get about 180 per tank, which is only an extra $2.40 E85 gallon of gas difference... It burns cooler than gas.

    Here is a great article on E85 gas an supercharged BMW 3-series(I dont know which 3-series they refer to):

    Link to article: http://www.superchargerperformance.c...uel-conversion
    Yes yes, often the injectors are big enough to flow extra but if you are SC'd or turbo'd what then? This won't apply to everyone, if you go for E85 in a car that is not specifically stated to be E85 compatible do it right and get a proper tune as well as proper injectors.

    E85 is awesome and I really like it, as it has some great advantages as well as disadvantages, but it is not a replacement for unleaded race gas in an E92 M3.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    awesome thanks for the info, i will be getting half of my credit on the pallet in MS109 and the rest in the U4.4 i use for my race bike. i have actually ran MS109 before years ago when i raced 2 strokes and always had good results with it. plus it smells good lol

    i don't have a ECU tuned just for the fuel but it is tuned for the highest pump and since the VP100 and MS109 are direct pump replacement i don't think i will need to change the tune. plus it is not a custom tune anyway it is just Dinan Software for my midpipe so my tune doesn't really give me much power anyway just makes the car run better. i will speak with my tech though before and get his thoughts. he is a former wrench for a race team so he has exp with race gas, plus my motor guy for my race bike used to race cars too so i can speak with him also. he tuned my ECU for my bike for the U4.4 so for all i know he may have software for my car. if he does maybe i will do a custom tune

    but my goal was to just use this as direct replacement and see the difference. i will have enough so the ECU in the car can adjust and i will make sure to save enough for when i get around to doing the dynos. thinking back i wish i did dynos, stock, then after each mod so i had comparos but oh well. i will at least see the diff btw the fuel anyway

    thanks alot guys

    H
    08 E92 M3
    06 F250
    09 CRF 450/10 CRF 250

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    MS109 FTW.

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    You cant jsut dump E85 in your car and expect the ECU to adapt to it. The air/fuel ratio is waaay different than gasoline, the car has to be set up to handle the stuff. Most stock systems can handle it though after some ECU tweaks. Only problem is you are effectivly maxing out almost any fuel system once you go E85 and start upping boost/power. The stuff is low energy density compared to gasoline, but it is very high octane and burns cooler, it is more resistant to pre-ignition and it's great for boost etc...

    If you want some really good $#@!, get yourself Xylene or Toluene. Both can be found in a paint shop for a few bucks a gallon. Add a gallon to a half a tank of 93 octane and you have about 99 octane.

    Xylene is generally easier to find, it is about 114 octane and has the almost exact same energy density of gasoline so it will not affect A/F. Toluene is harder to find because it is the main ingredient in TNT (trinitrotoluene) and it is also carcinogenic (cancer causing), don't breathe the $#@! in.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    You cant jsut dump E85 in your car and expect the ECU to adapt to it. The air/fuel ratio is waaay different than gasoline, the car has to be set up to handle the stuff. Most stock systems can handle it though after some ECU tweaks. Only problem is you are effectivly maxing out almost any fuel system once you go E85 and start upping boost/power. The stuff is low energy density compared to gasoline, but it is very high octane and burns cooler, it is more resistant to pre-ignition and it's great for boost etc...

    If you want some really good $#@!, get yourself Xylene or Toluene. Both can be found in a paint shop for a few bucks a gallon. Add a gallon to a half a tank of 93 octane and you have about 99 octane.

    Xylene is generally easier to find, it is about 114 octane and has the almost exact same energy density of gasoline so it will not affect A/F. Toluene is harder to find because it is the main ingredient in TNT (trinitrotoluene) and it is also carcinogenic (cancer causing), don't breathe the $#@! in.
    are you sure on your math for "about 99 octane" ? how are you coming to that conclusion?

    i think your referring to a 1/4 tank (4gal), not half, and would need to add 2 gallons of toulene

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    This got me thinking...
    How could I go about modifying the N54 in my 335i to run on E85?
    Does anyone know a place in Los Angeles that could tune my car properly? Can it be compatible with my JB3?
    Do you think I would need larger injectors?

    Thanks in advance!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CookieCrisp Click here to enlarge
    This got me thinking...
    How could I go about modifying the N54 in my 335i to run on E85?
    Does anyone know a place in Los Angeles that could tune my car properly? Can it be compatible with my JB3?
    Do you think I would need larger injectors?

    Thanks in advance!
    Contact CP-E: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...esting-results

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    are you sure on your math for "about 99 octane" ? how are you coming to that conclusion?

    i think your referring to a 1/4 tank (4gal), not half, and would need to add 2 gallons of toulene
    Sorry I was in a rush when I typed that. A quarter tank sounds about right, use Xylene it is easier to get in most places and I believe it is slighter higher octane.

    Here is some info on Toluene, the same pretty much applies to Xylene. They are both Benzene based aromatic compounds, and sort of toxic to say the least. But have been used extensively in all out race applications in cars with small 1.5 liter engines and 70 psi boost pressure. That's right, 70 psi boost pressure back in 1989 formula racing. 1500 HP from a 1.5 liter engine using something like 80 to 100% toluene.

    http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
    Last edited by DBFIU; 07-27-2010 at 01:49 PM.
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    You can't just dump in as much Xylene or Toluene as you'd like. They are hard and corrosive and too much of them can damage your factory fuel system. You need to add some kind of lubrication along with it after a certain point, and even then you can only use so much. That's how I understand it and have been told anyways...

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    I never stated you just dump as much as youd like in your tank. You need to make sure its mixed thoroughly with gasoline in the correct proprtion before using it. It is a powerful solvent, so don't get it on your paint. Toluene is also the main ingredient in gasoline, so it's OK to use when mixed.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    You can't just dump in as much Xylene or Toluene as you'd like. They are hard and corrosive and too much of them can damage your factory fuel system. You need to add some kind of lubrication along with it after a certain point, and even then you can only use so much. That's how I understand it and have been told anyways...
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