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    DOC RACE's new BOTTOM Mount Manifold for S54!

    Click here to enlargeI was fortunate to get one of the very first photos of the new Bottom Mount S54 manifold sent to me by Doc Race. He said "OK" to post. So, here it is.

    I want to say that my reply to him brought up the question of EGT's.
    This is a whole area of FI manifolds largely ignored, at least by consumers.

    I understand it is way beyond the scope of a lot of cottage industry companies to conduct Dyno Lab testing of each and every project.

    I think it is crucial for SOMEONE to get some EGT values. I urge all of the small tubular manifold companies coming out with these manis (three companies at least, now) to offer EGT port bungs on EACH runner at no, or little cost to anyone requesting them. We as consumers would be conducting the EGT tests for the manufactures essentially. This division of labor is just the way it has to be, I am afraid.

    One problem. Data received will vary greatly on boost used, size of turbo, max rpm of motor, and fuel used (E-85 would be cooler EGT's)

    None the less, some data is better than no data. We could at least see trends in each cyclinder.

    Fitting a set of headers with individual EGT sensors is not cheap, but neither does it break the bank...especially if you are protecting huge RWHP build!

    If I am going to spend a fairly large chunk of change for a tubular mani, then likely large RWPH figures are being sought. That means POSSIBLY, a lot of boost, medium to large size turbos, a variety of fuels used.

    Under these circumstances I can see one or more cylinders possibly running at dangerously high EGT's. We all assume that this would never be the case. I for one, would want to know for CERTAIN, that I had at least no cylinders approaching any danger zone of high temps.

    I THINK(correct me if I am wrong), that an identified high EGT cylinder can be corrected SOMEWHAT by running a colder plug just in that cylinder.
    is this true.

    Not to take away from DOC RACE's brilliant work, or any OTHER company. I think I bring up a valid point. I look forward to everyone's thoughts on this.
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    Last edited by Bdave; 10-19-2012 at 06:53 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    I THINK(correct me if I am wrong), that an identified high EGT cylinder can be corrected SOMEWHAT by running a colder plug just in that cylinder.
    High EGTs would be the symptom, changing spark plugs would be a band-aid that would not address the cause.

    If I had EGT deviations, I would be looking to confirm that ignition timing was the same across all cylinders, and that the fuel injectors were matched closely as a start. If both of these conditions were stable, then it's obviously an airflow deviance which might be able to be addressed, or if not, than the cylinder to cylinder AFRs would need to be looked at.

    I agree that having the bungs included would be a nice option, but admittedly the average consumer isn't going to be interested in spending $2k on the added instrumentation. If I was building a turbo S54 project, I would definitely go with these sensors though...
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    So I take you prefer the top mount?

    Nice thread btw!
    Chrome Space Bar Issue: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...338#post738338


    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    High EGTs would be the symptom, changing spark plugs would be a band-aid that would not address the cause.
    Sorry, that's actually a poor analogy. What I should have said was that changing spark plugs is adapting the hardware to the symptom, and doesn't address the cause.
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    EGT is a very important reference when it comes to tuning and putting diffrent plugs where u have higher temp is just stupid.

    You know were to aim for make max horsepower, and the EGT will tell you if you are SAFE for pushing it forward or if u are on the edge of failure.

    Cyl 5&6 is the most critical if comparing on a S54 and its smart to add some % xtra fuel there if u are runnning a full seq aftermarket ecu or have the capability to adjust the MSS54, its not like one cylinder have 150 degree higher temp than the other..small corrections!

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    Interesting replies. GOOD replies, thank you!

    As far as what I prefer, I really cant say yet. I have to see what Doc Race comes up with for an intake tube and AIR FILTER for the top mount. It is glaringly absent in his photos. The design is still being developed.
    I do know that a bottom mount can be fitted with a good 4 inch intake tube and huge AFE filter.

    Cost LESS than 1K!
    I DID have bungs put in my modified, ported Steed Speed and added EGT sensors to each runner. Total cost was less than 1k. I already had a gauge. Senors run about 90 dollars each I think.
    It is GOOD money IMO to add EGT senors to a MAX effort project, especially.

    Its kind of scary, all these new tubulars coming on the market and not a single one has been tested to see how the EGTs are affected or running on each cylnder. Someone could easily fry a cylinder.
    I dont see how anyone can accurately predict EGTs looking a design. You need the sensors when dyno tuning.

    Dont get me wrong. I think its fantastic that we FINALLY have access to fix a horrible bottle neck in our S54 medium to large turbo sized projects(assuming that the tubular flows awesome). But at what cost?? Who is going to be responsible for testing EGTs? Even if a cylinder doesnt self destruct right away, it may fail a year down the road and cause horrific expense that could have been avoided by TESTING!!! Someone needs to be responsible for testing before one of gets really burned...literally.
    Last edited by Bdave; 10-22-2012 at 11:16 AM.

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    What are you looking for?

    U canīt get a certain EGT just putting this manifold onto a S54 engine since its not made for boost, its a mather of tuning and up to the tuner when converting to boosted application to have this under controll..if u tune with the OEM MSS54 there is no problem adding or removing fuel at any desired cylinder. This design looks good and im sure the collector is very nice as well though i havent seen it.

    6 sep bungs is perfect if u know what to do with the data but 1 is absolutly fine and of course a minimum when tuning..otherwise ur blind!

    What im saying is...5 tuners could tune this manifold in 10 diffrent ways...hopefully good and not so good and with diffrent EGTīs in the end still making decent HP.

    Cheers!



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Interesting replies. GOOD replies, thank you!

    As far as what I prefer, I really cant say yet. I have to see what Doc Race comes up with for an intake tube and AIR FILTER for the top mount. It is glaringly absent in his photos. The design is still being developed.
    I do know that a bottom mount can be fitted with a good 4 inch intake tube and huge AFE filter.

    Cost LESS than 1K!
    I DID have bungs put in my modified, ported Steed Speed and added EGT sensors to each runner. Total cost was less than 1k. I already had a gauge. Senors run about 90 dollars each I think.
    It is GOOD money IMO to add EGT senors to a MAX effort project, especially.

    Its kind of scary, all these new tubulars coming on the market and not a single one has been tested to see how the EGTs are affected or running on each cylnder. Someone could easily fry a cylinder.
    I dont see how anyone can accurately predict EGTs looking a design. You need the sensors when dyno tuning.

    Dont get me wrong. I think its fantastic that we FINALLY have access to fix a horrible bottle neck in our S54 medium to large turbo sized projects(assuming that the tubular flows awesome). But at what cost?? Who is going to be responsible for testing EGTs? Even if a cylinder doesnt self destruct right away, it may fail a year down the road and cause horrific expense that could have been avoided by TESTING!!! Someone needs to be responsible for testing before one of gets really burned...literally.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JAWS Motorsport Click here to enlarge
    What are you looking for?

    U canīt get a certain EGT just putting this manifold onto a S54 engine since its not made for boost, its a mather of tuning and up to the tuner when converting to boosted application to have this under controll..if u tune with the OEM MSS54 there is no problem adding or removing fuel at any desired cylinder. This design looks good and im sure the collector is very nice as well though i havent seen it.

    6 sep bungs is perfect if u know what to do with the data but 1 is absolutly fine and of course a minimum when tuning..otherwise ur blind!

    What im saying is...5 tuners could tune this manifold in 10 diffrent ways...hopefully good and not so good and with diffrent EGTīs in the end still making decent HP.

    Cheers!
    Let us just set aside tuning for safe EGTs and consider what the EGT's might be running if NO sensors are in place and the tuner is simply tuning the motor for Max HP and TQ.
    Can a well designed tubular manifold HELP to more or less equalize EGTs in all the cylnders? Equal length, un equal lenght, special attention to the runner design of #5 and #6 cylnders? I dont know the answer. But I think it is possible to more or less try NOT to have any one cylnder to be drastically higher in EGT as compared to the rest.....all at the same boost of course.

    What I am I looking for? A safe motor/build. Accountability discussion. Who is responsible for testing the design of a new tubular manifold thrust on the market? The builder, the consumers?

    What if one of these manifolds is shown to cause failures in one or more cylinders, right away, or even after even a long time. Because 9.9 consumers out of 10 will NOT be running their manis with 6 EGT sensors.
    Every one(almost) will install the mani, give the motor a good as tune as possible to make maximum HP for a given boost. Some will push the boost to 30psi, possibly more. What if by design one cylinder runs exceedingly hot in one particular design from one or more manufacturers? And catastrophic failure takes place due to faulty design of the runner length, diameter etc?
    This is very very possible.
    Sure, you can say "caveat emptor" Buyer Beware. That is one argument. Anybody have any other ways of looking at things?
    Me, personally, I spent the extra 1K to at least KNOW and minimize the chance of damage due to excessive EGT in any one cylinder.
    Remember. Anyone buying a tubular manifold is likely building a MAX effort project. Boost in the case of SP can be as much as 40psi. Temps will may likely be an issue.

    I dont have the answers. It is a tough call. it is very expensive for most manufacturers to be doing EGT testing on their manis before releasing them. I have this feeling that FRS may actually perform this sort of testing. I think I will email them and ask them out right.

    I dont mean to be an alarmist. But just stop and think about it. Wouldn't you really like to know the mani you bought has been tested at various levels of boost on different fuels to see if there are any design flaws that could cause highly elevated exhaust gas temperatures in one or more cylinders in your expensive built S54 motor?

    That is for starters. I would STILL install my own sensors for a max effort build. But that's just me...and Jaws. Who else is now thinking about sensors? Or at a bare minimum, some testing data from the builder of the mani you purchase?
    Last edited by Bdave; 10-23-2012 at 04:04 PM.

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    I never seen or heard what u are asking for..better put a quality annalyzer in your fuel tank and monitor the fuel quality. its a bigger chance u get $#@!ty fuel and blow ur engine.

    Everyone TUNING are using a EGT otherwise i dont know what u do?...if u are unsure put 6 bungs and move the sensor around...tune after the cylinder running hottest and ur "safe" in that mather.

    I dont think anyone will put a flow chart along with tested boost levels and EGT values along with a header...if so ..be sure its EXPENSIVE!! ( We can do it if u guys are willing to pay for it )

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Let us just set aside tuning for safe EGTs and consider what the EGT's might be running if NO sensors are in place and the tuner is simply tuning the motor for Max HP and TQ.
    Can a well designed tubular manifold HELP to more or less equalize EGTs in all the cylnders? Equal length, un equal lenght, special attention to the runner design of #5 and #6 cylnders? I dont know the answer. But I think it is possible to more or less try NOT to have any one cylnder to be drastically higher in EGT as compared to the rest.....all at the same boost of course.

    What I am I looking for? A safe motor/build. Accountability discussion. Who is responsible for testing the design of a new tubular manifold thrust on the market? The builder, the consumers?

    What if one of these manifolds is shown to cause failures in one or more cylinders, right away, or even after even a long time. Because 9.9 consumers out of 10 will NOT be running their manis with 6 EGT sensors.
    Every one(almost) will install the mani, give the motor a good as tune as possible to make maximum HP for a given boost. Some will push the boost to 30psi, possibly more. What if by design one cylinder runs exceedingly hot in one particular design from one or more manufacturers? And catastrophic failure takes place due to faulty design of the runner length, diameter etc?
    This is very very possible.
    Sure, you can say "caveat emptor" Buyer Beware. That is one argument. Anybody have any other ways of looking at things?
    Me, personally, I spent the extra 1K to at least KNOW and minimize the chance of damage due to excessive EGT in any one cylinder.
    Remember. Anyone buying a tubular manifold is likely building a MAX effort project. Boost in the case of SP can be as much as 40psi. Temps will may likely be an issue.

    I dont have the answers. It is a tough call. it is very expensive for most manufacturers to be doing EGT testing on their manis before releasing them. I have this feeling that FRS may actually perform this sort of testing. I think I will email them and ask them out right.

    I dont mean to be an alarmist. But just stop and think about it. Wouldn't you really like to know the mani you bought has been tested at various levels of boost on different fuels to see if there are any design flaws that could cause highly elevated exhaust gas temperatures in one or more cylinders in your expensive built S54 motor?

    That is for starters. I would STILL install my own sensors for a max effort build. But that's just me...and Jaws. Who else is now thinking about sensors? Or at a bare minimum, some testing data from the builder of the mani you purchase?

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    LOL. Jaws my good Sir, I got that covered too. Rest assured. I have the best fuel analyzer I could find. A Zeitronix e85 Content Analyzer,,,an ethanol percentage sender, gauge and wiring harness. Not cheap. I cant believe how many guys not running flex fuel do NOT have one of these gauges.
    http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.shtml

    I have never heard of a bad batch in our area, but the idea of not knowing EXACTLY what percentage ethanol I am burning is unacceptable to me. It is critical IMO to monitor that constantly.

    In the next year AEM Infinity will be flex fuel and plug and play for BMW M3. Until then I can do quite nicely with a good tune at 83% Ethanol and another for 93 octane pump gas. I have two separate gas tanks and fuel systems. The 15 gallon fuel cell with a built in 1200 litre per hour pump (with a wave modulated pump controller based on RPM)will never see pump gas....only E85. We get E-85 (85 %) year round in South Florida. Typically about 83% on the low side(E-83).
    A system of extremely high end ball valves controls which tank is in use. Two separate return lines, obviously.

    My main gas 17 gallon gas tank has the OEM pump plus a parallel 1000 liter per hour pump on a billet fuel pump controller....wave modulated RPM based.
    Last edited by Bdave; 10-23-2012 at 07:31 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    LOL. Jaws my good Sir, I got that covered too. Rest assured. I have the best fuel analyzer I could find. A Zeitronix e85 Content Analyzer,,,an ethanol percentage sender, gauge and wiring harness. Not cheap. I cant believe how many guys not running flex fuel do NOT have one of these gauges.
    http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.shtml

    I have never heard of a bad batch in our area, but the idea of not knowing EXACTLY what percentage ethanol I am burning is unacceptable to me. It is critical IMO to monitor that constantly.

    In the next year AEM Infinity will be flex fuel and plug and play for BMW M3. Until then I can do quite nicely with a good tune at 83% Ethanol and another for 93 octane pump gas. I have two separate gas tanks and fuel systems. The 15 gallon fuel cell with a built in 1200 litre per hour pump (with a wave modulated pump controller based on RPM)will never see pump gas....only E85. We get E-85 (85 %) year round in South Florida. Typically about 83% on the low side(E-83).
    A system of extremely high end ball valves controls which tank is in use. Two separate return lines, obviously.

    My main gas 17 gallon gas tank has the OEM pump plus a parallel 1000 liter per hour pump on a billet fuel pump controller....wave modulated RPM based.
    Are u sleeping good with all data? Click here to enlarge *joking*

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    I have the best fuel analyzer I could find. A Zeitronix e85 Content Analyzer,,,an ethanol percentage sender, gauge and wiring harness. Not cheap. I cant believe how many guys not running flex fuel...blah blah blah
    Bdave...your car hasn't been running for two years...when are those guys in Florida gonna get business done!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JAWS Motorsport Click here to enlarge
    Are u sleeping good with all data? Click here to enlarge *joking*
    Fair question. The answer is YES! I sleep much BETTER knowing my tuner has this data available to him, especially the EGT info. It was less than 1K investment to get all that set up. It is up and working too, waiting for my tuner to return from a job overseas.
    Jaws, I had all my development go on before all these tubular manis came on the market so we had a Steed Speed (which is essentially a 2D tubular mani) cut open, and VERY carefully ported, welded shut and sent back to Canada to have it inspected and the original ceramic coating added.
    That combined with E85 and extensively modified intake tube and AFE airfilter should make for a vastly more efficient build. Probably not as good as one of these new tubulars from Lutz, FSR, or DOc Race, but in the ball park.
    I do know that tubular manis for the WRX Sti's underwent developmental evolutuons when it was discovered there were significant EGT issues due to improper runner length. It was so bad that the runners had to be totally re designed to alleviate the dangerously high temps.
    So, EGT issues HAVE happened in the past.
    We cant adjust runner length but we can reduce boost, and/or adjust tuning IF necessary to avoid any dangerously high EGT's.
    So, knowing all this, yes....I do sleep better.

    I still have far less invested in this mani than if I had bought a tubular taking into account the mani came with the used kit I bought. We feel strongly it is money well spent.

    Same goes for the E-85 analyzer. I would never run E-85 with out having this.

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    DOC Race is ceramic coating my bottom mount. it will keep outer temps down but EGT changes may be negligible. to those interested in the equal length top mount...ceramic coating will be extremely important in addition to heat shielding.
    the next bottle neck to be addressed (for torque anyway) will be the intake mani Click here to enlarge

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    Im sure you could be accommodated with additional EGT bungs by the manufacturers. Having the data makes for easier editing of your tune when it comes to cylinder trims. On a standalone you could implement your own correction strategy to do it on the fly while the engine is running.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by EFI LOGIC Click here to enlarge
    Im sure you could be accommodated with additional EGT bungs by the manufacturers. Having the data makes for easier editing of your tune when it comes to cylinder trims. On a standalone you could implement your own correction strategy to do it on the fly while the engine is running.
    Nice post!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by EFI LOGIC Click here to enlarge
    Im sure you could be accommodated with additional EGT bungs by the manufacturers. Having the data makes for easier editing of your tune when it comes to cylinder trims. On a standalone you could implement your own correction strategy to do it on the fly while the engine is running.

    Yes. with the correct ECU, corrections could be done on the fly. I would have to have a LOT more knowledge too.
    Suffice to say for NOW, the plans are to have the TUNER look at the values in the DYNO TUNING stages only...make any corrections possible, then pull the probes and put the bungs back in.

    I dont even have a gauge that fits in the car that will accommodate all six read outs right now. All that is for DYNO TUNING only.

    In the future with another ECU like MAYBE the AEM infinity and a LOT more funds, we MIGHT run the sensors full time.

    At present, we are keeping things simple. We may be running a lot of BOOST and want to make sure we are not running ANY dangerous EGT levels that may endanger the life of the motor. Thats ALL...for now.

    The sensors will help EVALUATE any exhaust mani we are using also. At presernt, a heavily modified Steed Speed. This could CHANGE at any time, mind you.......

    I want to EMPHASIZE>>>>YES! I sleep a LOT better knowing that my EGT's are such that I will not be frying a cylinder anytime soon due to overly high Exhaust Gas Temperatures.!!!!


    BTW, I originally had NOT planned to run probes. It was a member's comment a long time ago that made me look in to the issue. I forget who made the suggestion. But I want to thank him for that.
    Last edited by Bdave; 11-21-2012 at 03:07 PM.

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