Close

Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast
Results 276 to 300 of 353

Thread: Possible fuel pump upgrade

              
  1. #276
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    6,529
    Rep Points
    2,953.1
    Mentioned
    213 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    30


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I dont think this is feasible as the HPFP is bolted to the vacuum pump and they work in tandem. The HPFP is mechanical not electrical.
    The HPFP sits next to the vacuum pump but it is not vacuum pump driven. If you look at the pic you took there's an electrical connector on it. It is an electrically driven HPFP on the N54.

    Other platforms have pumps that are chain driven (i.e. mechanical) off a separate cam but that's not the case here. If I'm wrong I'll eat crow.


  2. #277
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    6,544
    Rep Points
    6,326.8
    Mentioned
    480 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    64


    Reputation: Yes | No

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The HPFP sits next to the vacuum pump but it is not vacuum pump driven. If you look at the pic you took there's an electrical connector on it. It is an electrically driven HPFP on the N54.

    Other platforms have pumps that are chain driven (i.e. mechanical) off a separate cam but that's not the case here. If I'm wrong I'll eat crow.
    I have not looked at it in awhile but I'm sure it's mechanically driven. Running two isn't practical. But modifying the OEM one might be especially if it's something like a simple drill/tap for a new inlet fitting, etc.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  3. #278
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Hayward, CA
    Posts
    4,509
    Rep Points
    3,685.0
    Mentioned
    254 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The HPFP sits next to the vacuum pump but it is not vacuum pump driven. If you look at the pic you took there's an electrical connector on it. It is an electrically driven HPFP on the N54.

    Other platforms have pumps that are chain driven (i.e. mechanical) off a separate cam but that's not the case here. If I'm wrong I'll eat crow.
    I hate to disagree with you Dzenno but that is not the case. That is a sensor or some kind. I have the pump apart, it is gear driven pump running off the engine. This is not an electrical pump. Not a single HPFP I have seen are ever electrically driven. And ALL the newer diesels use one of some type so I am very familiar with them. This pump reminds me a LOT of a diesel injection pump with a lot less parts, it has 3 plungers, that are up against an offset rotor, as the pump turns the offset rotor presses the plungers and pumps the fuel, the plungers sit in some kind of oil bath(dont ask me how I know this, not like I dumped oil everywhere when I took it apart). I do have good news, with further inspection it seems what I thought was a hole in the bottom of the feed is just a ball bearing pressed in after machining. It appears that the feed opens up in a bowl of sorts and this is where the fuel is drawn from. If this is indeed the case, it very well may prove beneficial to upgrade intank pump, pull the screen, up the lines, and run a high flow inline filter. I will prob be doing just that on my stage 3 test car.
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 487WHP / 530WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


  4. #279
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    6,544
    Rep Points
    6,326.8
    Mentioned
    480 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    64


    Reputation: Yes | No

    I wonder what the ball bearing does in there. Must be sort sort of check valve? Think we can drill the opening out to get a full say 3/8" in to the bowl?

    Also there should be some sort of regulation valve. Maybe the sensor you noticed. Which is what the DME uses to "control" high fuel pressure. Do you have any photos of that handy?
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #280
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Hayward, CA
    Posts
    4,509
    Rep Points
    3,685.0
    Mentioned
    254 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I wonder what the ball bearing does in there. Must be sort sort of check valve? Think we can drill the opening out to get a full say 3/8" in to the bowl?

    Also there should be some sort of regulation valve. Maybe the sensor you noticed. Which is what the DME uses to "control" high fuel pressure. Do you have any photos of that handy?
    Many times a hole has to be drilled during the machining process to reach an area you could not reach and are then sealed by pressing a ball bearing in there(see the picture of the cut away CHRA and look at the thrust you can see the BB on the top pressed in for this purpose). In the pump I tried to depress it also thinking it might be a check valve and it did not move and the outside has about 4 of these BB's sealing holes, but again could very well be wrong. Could be a high pressure relieve valve or something similar. Here are pictures of the sensor and the regulator which mine seems to have something broken off of the regulator, my guess is a vacuum port?
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 487WHP / 530WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


  6. #281
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    930
    Rep Points
    534.4
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Reputation: Yes | No
    The oil is used to reduce fuel chamber volume to push fuel to the rail. I guess there also needs to be some sort of fuel recirculation system inside the pump. There's a pdf that explains the operation I think.

  7. #282
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    791.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    FYI - HPFPupgrade.com may be a good option for upgrading the pump. Also the pump is chain driven for sure. A smaller diameter driven gear could be used, but one would need to come up with a method of taking up the slack. Replacing the chain would be a pain in the ass and simply not worth it.

  8. #283
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    791.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Also check the material on E90post (yuck) that contains the details of the inner workings of the HPFP. Unlikely only an upgrade to the inlet will yield results, but not impossible.

  9. #284
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    930
    Rep Points
    534.4
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Reputation: Yes | No
    ^^^ belt driven... same shaft as the vacuum pump.
    EDIT: not the same shaft, but connected to the vacuum pump utilizing the belt drive.

  10. #285
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    791.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    ^^^ belt driven... same shaft as the vacuum pump.
    On n54 I am pretty sure it is driven off of the same chain as the oil pump...?

  11. #286
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    791.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    On n54 I am pretty sure it is driven off of the same chain as the oil pump...?
    Looking at realoem more it looks like maybe the vacuum pump is chain drive and the hpfp belt drive. I'll look when I m home. Changing a pully is much easier.

  12. #287
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Hayward, CA
    Posts
    4,509
    Rep Points
    3,685.0
    Mentioned
    254 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Looking at realoem more it looks like maybe the vacuum pump is chain drive and the hpfp belt drive. I'll look when I m home. Changing a pully is much easier.
    There is no gear on the front of the pump. There is a slotted head which means it fits into a slot into whatever pulley drives the vacuum pump. They are driven off the same pulley, also the oil inside the pump is not engine oil like how a lot of the HPFP and HPOP work. This was a self contained chamber with the oil in it. You can tell this by how clean and contaminate free the oil was. The way the plungers ride on the face of the plate is metal to metal you cant have contaminates in there or it would last about 5 miles and stop pumping.

    Edit: Not so sure about HPFPupgrade.com for the N54 engine they show a Meth system and a Cobb AP, nothing really about upgrading the pumps.
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 487WHP / 530WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


  13. #288
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    1,259
    Rep Points
    1,382.6
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Have a look at the "Engine Management" PDF on e90post. The clean oil you found is forced by those pistons into the chambers which are made in a way that allows them to expand, putting the fuel under high pressure. The electrical connector probably has a sensor attached to it, but it also allows the DME to electrically regulate the fuel pressure.

  14. #289
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Hayward, CA
    Posts
    4,509
    Rep Points
    3,685.0
    Mentioned
    254 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Have a look at the "Engine Management" PDF on e90post. The clean oil you found is forced by those pistons into the chambers which are made in a way that allows them to expand, putting the fuel under high pressure. The electrical connector probably has a sensor attached to it, but it also allows the DME to electrically regulate the fuel pressure.
    I am honestly not trying to reinvent the HPFP, I was looking for a possible quick way to improve flow ala open the inlet, etc. If the HPFP becomes an issue a shop the specializes in HPFP's will have to come up with a solution.
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 487WHP / 530WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


  15. #290
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    1,259
    Rep Points
    1,382.6
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I am honestly not trying to reinvent the HPFP, I was looking for a possible quick way to improve flow ala open the inlet, etc. If the HPFP becomes an issue a shop the specializes in HPFP's will have to come up with a solution.
    I understand you are not trying to engineer a new pump, but I just wanted to share the information I had read and pass on where more can be found.

  16. #291
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    104,346
    Rep Points
    25,443.2
    Mentioned
    1641 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    255


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I understand you are not trying to engineer a new pump, but I just wanted to share the information I had read and pass on where more can be found.
    Maybe instead you should have posted the pdf.

  17. #292
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Hayward, CA
    Posts
    4,509
    Rep Points
    3,685.0
    Mentioned
    254 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I understand you are not trying to engineer a new pump, but I just wanted to share the information I had read and pass on where more can be found.
    No worries man, I got what you were trying to do. I think we all know that fuel system issues are laying on the horizon, with big power numbers. I'm very happy to see DSS handled the driveshaft issue. I will be getting a 135 or 335 from the auction soon and will be doing a full build on it with the biggest stage 3 option. So how many things I can break on it.. haha
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 487WHP / 530WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


  18. #293
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    918
    Rep Points
    772.4
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Just got off the phone with a company that specializes in HPFP's and they are going to call me back and let me know if this is something they want to tackle. I will keep you guys posted. Ok back to work

    NOW you are talking!
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!

  19. #294
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    918
    Rep Points
    772.4
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The HPFP sits next to the vacuum pump but it is not vacuum pump driven. If you look at the pic you took there's an electrical connector on it. It is an electrically driven HPFP on the N54.

    Other platforms have pumps that are chain driven (i.e. mechanical) off a separate cam but that's not the case here. If I'm wrong I'll eat crow.

    Our HPFP is mechanical. Electric motors for high pressure fuel pumps are unreliable.
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!

  20. #295
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    6,529
    Rep Points
    2,953.1
    Mentioned
    213 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    30


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I hate to disagree with you Dzenno but that is not the case. That is a sensor or some kind. I have the pump apart, it is gear driven pump running off the engine. This is not an electrical pump. Not a single HPFP I have seen are ever electrically driven. And ALL the newer diesels use one of some type so I am very familiar with them. This pump reminds me a LOT of a diesel injection pump with a lot less parts, it has 3 plungers, that are up against an offset rotor, as the pump turns the offset rotor presses the plungers and pumps the fuel, the plungers sit in some kind of oil bath(dont ask me how I know this, not like I dumped oil everywhere when I took it apart). I do have good news, with further inspection it seems what I thought was a hole in the bottom of the feed is just a ball bearing pressed in after machining. It appears that the feed opens up in a bowl of sorts and this is where the fuel is drawn from. If this is indeed the case, it very well may prove beneficial to upgrade intank pump, pull the screen, up the lines, and run a high flow inline filter. I will prob be doing just that on my stage 3 test car.
    Ah, excellent, and I'm totally wrong on the not-mechanical part. Great pics and thanks a lot for clarifying. I didn't know there was a sensor on that HPFP, or is it a sensor?

    About the comments on the chain driving the HPFP. This one I'm sure about actually as we've done the head recently. The oil pump is the only pump chain driven. How the others are driven I'm not sure about but the oil pump I know for sure as we've had it out and replaced for maintenance reasons when the head went back on along with a new timing chain and belts.

    Interesting findings on the pump internals and a great discussion. If only every thread was like this one! Click here to enlarge Keep it up guys!


  21. #296
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    958
    Rep Points
    1,038.8
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    11


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    If/when my HPFP craps out I'll have it sectioned.

  22. #297
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    983
    Rep Points
    1,248.8
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    13


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I can't resist.

    That's what she said.
    Sir, you just made me laugh out loud at work Click here to enlarge

    Current mods:
    Kline catless exhaust
    997.2/GT2RS IC's
    Cobb E85 custom tune by Mitch
    ID1000 injectors
    Sachs stage 2.5 clutch

  23. #298
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    1,259
    Rep Points
    1,382.6
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Maybe instead you should have posted the pdf.
    Sorry, Sticky, it is just too big for you.

    I can't attach it but I can link to it. Page 24 starts the relevant section.

    http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...8&d=1165592709

  24. #299
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    1,259
    Rep Points
    1,382.6
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    About the comments on the chain driving the HPFP. This one I'm sure about actually as we've done the head recently. The oil pump is the only pump chain driven. How the others are driven I'm not sure about but the oil pump I know for sure as we've had it out and replaced for maintenance reasons when the head went back on along with a new timing chain and belts.
    Page 24: "The high pressure fuel pump is driven "in-tandem" with the vacuum pump which is driven by the oil pump chain drive assembly."

    I can't believe you and Tony have not read these documents.

  25. #300
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    6,529
    Rep Points
    2,953.1
    Mentioned
    213 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    30


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Page 24: "The high pressure fuel pump is driven "in-tandem" with the vacuum pump which is driven by the oil pump chain drive assembly."

    I can't believe you and Tony have not read these documents.
    To be honest I haven't looked at the fueling hardware closely just yet as I haven't had a need to do so. The 631wtq that the car made still was within acceptable AFR (12.5) but the fuel pump was definitely being taxed although there were zero issues doing a numbrr of pulls on the dyno and about 50-60 pulls WOT on the road. The thing that broke and that I need to address is in the driveline not fuel system just yet Click here to enlarge there's also a possibility of adding an extra meth nozzle.

    In any case, fueling is next on the agenda and I'm sure many of us will be looking that way a lot more closely next.


Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •