Close

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3


    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No

    Sachs Performance 4-puck clutch with stock flywheel = stock-like driveability. Review.

    Today I replaced my former ACT Street clutch (it begun to slip at 7000 miles - but it was used for drag racing) with a Sachs Performance 4-puck sintered clutch disc and cover. This clutch is rated at 670Nm (500lb-ft) at the flywheel but I ordered the further reinforced clutch plate (more pedal pressure) which upgrades the rating to 770-800Nm (570-590lb-ft) at the flywheel. I managed to get the clutch kit at reseller price (430EUR excluding VAT). I also used a new OEM flywheel, but my former flywheel was in good shape.


    I realized that using an organic clutch for hard driving and especially drag racing is a nonsense. Especially with the ACT Street, it seems that the pressure plate springs cannot cope with repeated extreme heat and the pedal becomes a bit soft after 5-6 launches in a row (it hardens again after the clutch cools down), which is a sign that the pressure plate spring metal soften with heat. The organic disc looked quite worn too.


    From my research I concluded that 4-puck cluches are almost undriveable in traffic, yet most of the Sachs 4-puck reviews stated that the clutch drives quite well. I am sure the clutch material is very important in driveability, and I imagined that if someone would make a good puck clutch material, that would have to be Sachs.


    You cannot imagine how nervous I was installing a 4-puck clutch. I like to drive my car around town and on holidays, I sometimes daily drive it so I was secretly hoping that the clutch would not be undriveable in stop and go traffic.


    To my huge surprise, this clutch DRIVES ALMOST LIKE STOCK. I think I need to make a video for you to believe this Click here to enlarge It doesn't even shudder when you engage the first gear, except in the first 2-3 kilometers after I left the service shop, where it had a very faint shudder, almost imperceptible when starting in 1st gear. I can go in reverse with no shudder whatsoever, I can park the car without any problem. Pedal effort is lower than ACT (but higher than stock), I really have to ask (the 3rd time) the vendor if they did reinforce my clutch plate. I guess I didn't notice that the ACT pedal was quite stiff (I do bodybuilding). The engagement point is higher, stock-like (I think that I can reinstall my clutch stop now). Now I really think that the majority of driveability problems with puck clutches come from the use of lightweight, single-mass flywheels.


    I cannot tell you how happy I am that the driveability of the car was not altered by the clutch. How well it holds it remains to be seen, but I think it can't last shorter than the ACT. 20000 miles would be great. Before spending a huge amount of money on a HPF clutch or a ClutchMasters twin-disc, you may want to consider this one.


    Posted are some pictures of the worn parts and the new clutch.
    Attached Images Attached Images       

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    6,597
    Rep Points
    3,031.4
    Mentioned
    220 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Cool, thanks for the review @cstavaru. Hitting the strip any time soon? I'd like to see how it holds up to launches and then the drive after a good beating session.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Cool, thanks for the review @cstavaru . Hitting the strip any time soon? I'd like to see how it holds up to launches and then the drive after a good beating session.
    I may participate at an event on October 12-13, but there was talk about it getting cancelled, so I am not sure. However, I plan to do at least 1000km of break-in, so if I am not done by then, I don't think I will participate.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    301
    Rep Points
    479.1
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Thanks for the review, glad you're enjoying the clutch. Cool to know there's another option!

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    SOLD: E90 335i LCI; NOW: Audi R8 V10 MT

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    221
    Rep Points
    407.9
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Interesting. Anyone know if this clutch setup is available in North America?
    [02/07 E92 335i 6MT] - Under Construction
    [
    01/07 E92 335i 6MT] - Cobb S2+ PTF-protune | Stett CAI | ETS 5" FMIC | AR DP | AE Exhaust - Gone

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    110,158
    Rep Points
    27,514.4
    Mentioned
    1862 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    276


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Nice review, thanks. Good to hear it drives almost like stock which is rather impressive I would think.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    16
    Rep Points
    8.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Any updates? Are you still impressed? Want to install this cluch next week, too.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B///MW Click here to enlarge
    Any updates? Are you still impressed? Want to install this cluch next week, too.
    Hi,

    Sorry, I noticed your PM but I only had access to a tablet in the last 2 days and this website has some formatting issues preventing my to reply from an Android tablet or Android phone Click here to enlarge

    Yes, I am still very happy with the clutch ! Click here to enlarge It will not judder at all in 1-st gear or reverse, or in any gear (I gave it to a friend to drive it in a parking lot and he was impressed). But I did notice some differences to the stock clutch:

    - You have to be slightly focused when you take off, you cannot just dump it or the car will sling forward. But the beauty of the clutch is that it has a slip margin.

    - I cannot shift smoothly at readline between 3rd and 4th gear. There is a slight jolt when shifting, because there is a bit of drivetrain lash.

    - Any person that drives your car and will not be familiar with the clutch, will look like a dumbass (think service personnel when you are changing oil or other work, etc.).

    However, these are just minor problems. In town the car drives beautifully, as well as on long trips. You can change gears and no one from the car would notice any jolt. But on downshifts, it's best that you revmatch (and I do this all the time). I mean, I couldn't really ask for more from a 4-puck, un-sprung clutch. And of course it holds my RB power perfectly, but this is to be expected (but did NOT launch from a stand still yet, only decent launches, not drag launches).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    791.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    So I drive 500lbft through the stock clutch (at the wheels). How much performance can I see with this? Is it significant?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    So I drive 500lbft through the stock clutch (at the wheels). How much performance can I see with this? Is it significant?
    What do you mean by performance ? It doesn't increase your horsepower for sure Click here to enlarge

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    16
    Rep Points
    8.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    But on downshifts, it's best that you revmatch (and I do this all the time).
    So you'll feel a jolt if you do not match the revs of the lower gear? Does this only happen when you downshift fast?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B///MW Click here to enlarge
    So you'll feel a jolt if you do not mach the revs of the lower gear? Does this only happen when you downshift fast?
    To be honest, my rev-match habit dates from way back before I installed this clutch (because I was never happy about the unbalance that I felt even with the stock clutch when I was downshifting without rev-match), and I didn't even try very much to downshift without rev-matching with this clutch. And when I did, car behaved quite normally as I remember. I don't think it will be a problem.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    16
    Rep Points
    8.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Thanks, do you know which parts I need?

    Here's a list Alpina_B3_Lux posted some weeks ago:



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    791.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    What do you mean by performance ? It doesn't increase your horsepower for sure Click here to enlarge
    I meant how much torque can it take. I slip the stock clutch at 500tq or so, what can I expect on this upgrade?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I meant how much torque can it take. I slip the stock clutch at 500tq or so, what can I expect on this upgrade?
    The reinforced version (which I have) is rated at 800Nm (about 600 lb-ft).

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    3,041
    Rep Points
    1,116.8
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    12


    Reputation: Yes | No
    this sounds pretty good, 2 month son and no real complains

    not TOO harsh an engagement?


    have you used a spec clutch before to compare it to?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B///MW Click here to enlarge
    Thanks, do you know which parts I need?
    If you will not change the flywheel and release bearing, the minimum number of parts is two sets of screws: 23000417164 (x1 - comes as a set of 5 screws) and 21207548052 (x6)

    If you want to change the release bearing, you also need a release module which comes with the release bearing attached - 21517564027 (x1)

    If you will change the flywheel, you also need a set of flywheel screws: 11227520706 (x8)

    Optionally you can get a plastic pin 21511223328 and a spring clip 21517570284. I would recommend changing these.

    If you change the flywheel and get the LuK flywheel which is identical to OEM but much cheaper - 530EUR was mine (make sure you know if you have the 6 or 8 flywheel bolts version - if your car is made before 01/2009 you have 8 bolt flywheel, if after 01/2009 you have 6 bolt flywheel), make sure you get the kit with the pre-included center bearing, it's much easier.
    Last edited by cstavaru; 12-02-2012 at 08:55 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    this sounds pretty good, 2 month son and no real complains

    not TOO harsh an engagement?


    have you used a spec clutch before to compare it to?
    I only used ACT Street organic clutch and while the pedal pressure is the same (maybe even lower for the reinforced Sachs), the Sachs 4-puck clutch requires a bit more precision compared to the ACT (which was very similar to stock in engagement). Unfortunately the ACT pressure plate is low quality and does not clamp well when heated.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    16
    Rep Points
    8.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    If you will not change the flywheel and release bearing, the minimum number of parts is two sets of screws: 23000417164 (x1 - comes as a set of 5 screws) and 21207548052 (x6)

    If you want to change the release bearing, you also need a release module which comes with the release bearing attached - 21517564027 (x1)

    If you will change the flywheel, you also need a set of flywheel screws: 11227520706 (x8)

    Optionally you can get a plastic pin 21511223328 and a spring clip 21517570284. I would recommend changing these.

    If you change the flywheel and get the LuK flywheel which is identical to OEM but much cheaper - 530EUR was mine (make sure you know if you have the 6 or 8 flywheel bolts version - if your car is made before 01/2009 you have 8 bolt flywheel, if after 01/2009 you have 6 bolt flywheel), make sure you get the kit with the pre-included center bearing, it's much easier.
    Thanks, will change the release bearing but not the flywheel since my stock clutch has not slipped so far. But I'll clean it therefore I also need the flywheel screws?

    Will order all your mentioned part numbers.
    To my mind, I can also use the metallic pin and not the plastic one. At least I already have one here.

    And I think I'll need the alignment tool as well. Unfortunately, this tool was not included when I ordered the clutch.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B///MW Click here to enlarge
    Thanks, will change the release bearing but not the flywheel since my stock clutch has not slipped so far. But I'll clean it therefore I also need the flywheel screws?

    Will order all your mentioned part numbers.
    To my mind, I can also use the metallic pin and not the plastic one. At least I already have one here.

    And I think I'll need the alignment tool as well. Unfortunately, this tool was not included when I ordered the clutch.
    If you only clean the flywheel with brake cleaner you do not need to unbolt it so you do not need flywheel screws. But I would highly recommend at least resurfacing it. If you do not do this, you may have juddering due to remaining organic material and small grooves in the flywheel (as I read on other forums). Not to mention the new clutch may slip earlier. Also, if you are not prepared to replace or resurface the flywheel, it will be difficult in the unexpected situation in which the mechanic notices hotspots on the flywheel (you do not need your stock clutch to slip to have these).

    Yes and alignment tool is useful but many shops have sets of alignment tools which include the one used for the N54. A creative mechanic can align the clutch plate with some ad-hoc tools. Remember that you cannot have the clutch plate mis-aligned because if it's not perfectly aligned then the transmission shaft will not go in Click here to enlarge

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    16
    Rep Points
    8.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    But I would highly recommend at least resurfacing it. If you do not do this, you may have juddering due to remaining organic material and small grooves in the flywheel (as I read on other forums). Not to mention the new clutch may slip earlier. Also, if you are not prepared to replace or resurface the flywheel, it will be difficult in the unexpected situation in which the mechanic notices hotspots on the flywheel (you do not need your stock clutch to slip to have these).
    Ok, you confinced me to buy one. 440,- EUR incl. VAT. Not bad
    But I have not found one with pre-included center bearing. Is it really that difficult to put it in?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B///MW Click here to enlarge
    Ok, you confinced me to buy one. 440,- EUR incl. VAT. Not bad
    But I have not found one with pre-included center bearing. Is it really that difficult to put it in?
    Here is where I got mine: http://www.car-parts24.com/products/...35i-Motor.html (this is the 8-bolt version, with bearing included - there is a 6-bolt version on that website too).

    The bearing needs a special press to put in and I would not trust any independent shop to do this operation. Better keep it simple for them...Click here to enlarge

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    16
    Rep Points
    8.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    The bearing needs a special press to put in and I would not trust any independent shop to do this operation. Better keep it simple for them...Click here to enlarge
    Have you asked them to put the bearing in? I just wonder since their website states: "ohne Führungslager" which is German and means "without pilot bearing"

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Rep Points
    271.2
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B///MW Click here to enlarge
    Have you asked them to put the bearing in? I just wonder since their website states: "ohne Führungslager" which is German and means "without pilot bearing"
    I'm sorry, I just checked and I have got my flywheel from www.performance-kupplung.de (I cancelled the carparts24 order). Contact them at info [AT] performance-kupplung.de and they will be able to get the flywheel for you (with bearing). I specifically asked if the flywheel included the bearing and I didn't order until they confirmed.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    791.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    The reinforced version (which I have) is rated at 800Nm (about 600 lb-ft).
    Interesting. May be worth looking into. I am afraid that is too close to stock capacity, but its totally possible they under rated it for some safety factor.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •