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  1. #301
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    LOL'd

    Our head does suck though. I mean it works... but it doesn't change its suckiness factor. The turbo does a good job to band-aid over it and it's less of an issue for stock frame stuff I guess, but yeah. His head will change the curve some but it shouldn't really change the peak hp numbers, since that's more related to airflow from the turbo. As long as he's using racegas E85 or meth shenanigans it should all be kosher since those will be maxed out conditions, 91 octane may be a bit misleading.

    I bet that he will be pushing some big torque numbers in the midrange around 4k rpm. I doubt those torque numbers before the cross would be 100% similar to a stock head, sadly, but regardless in for results and disproving negative hype (even my own lovingly negative hype) and seeing what these things can do! Click here to enlarge
    I always love what you have to say, but taking an out of the box head and throwing 725 WHP at it and it still asking for more, doesn't really put it anywhere near the suckiness zone, but thats just my opinion. Can it be better, sure I know it can. Does it suck. Not in my book..Click here to enlarge

  2. #302
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eric335 Click here to enlarge
    Interested in some dynos/results! Click here to enlarge
    They will be up with in the next day maybe 2.

  3. #303
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    They will be up with in the next day maybe 2.
    Stage 1's are actually in my price range so i cant wait to see how they perform Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  4. #304
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I always love what you have to say, but taking an out of the box head and throwing 725 WHP at it and it still asking for more, doesn't really put it anywhere near the suckiness zone, but thats just my opinion. Can it be better, sure I know it can. Does it suck. Not in my book..Click here to enlarge
    Well if the stock heads don't suck then your stage 3's must be incredibly good at blowing...

    Sorry couldn't resist! Anyway your right the head does its job, just could always be better. These motors are proven solid so it's not high priority at this point, maybe a few hundred more hp left in it. I come from a domestic history so I think I look at heads as cheaply replaceable, gotta remind myself dyno > flowbench sometimes.

  5. #305
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I forgot about that. Well I've heard of subpar results from Helix, AR, Bat-mo-wheel (?), etc, but I think what they all had in common were factory turbines with a compressor wheel change only. Anyway Dzenno post the data and make us a believer! Click here to enlarge
    I hear that the Vargas stage 1's made similar power to your recent stock turbo record.......so that must be around 450-470ish whp? But I think the boost used was maybe a psi or so lower than what you ran.

  6. #306
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DCAFS Click here to enlarge
    I hear that the Vargas stage 1's made similar power to your recent stock turbo record.......so that must be around 450-470ish whp? But I think the boost used was maybe a psi or so lower than what you ran.
    The "Stock Turbo" record is 461 WHP / 510 with full-bolt ons, meth & an e85 blend, boost peaking at 20psi. I'm putting down 461 WHP / 500 WTQ on just E85 with boost peaking at 19.5 and Njz is putting down 469 / 491 on just E85 also.

    I'm also not sure, but I think the BMS car is a 6MT and both myself + Njz are 6ATs
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  7. #307
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The "Stock Turbo" record is 461 WHP / 510 with full-bolt ons, meth & an e85 blend, boost peaking at 20psi. I'm putting down 461 WHP / 500 WTQ on just E85 with boost peaking at 19.5 and Njz is putting down 469 / 491 on just E85 also.

    I'm also not sure, but I think the BMS car is a 6MT and both myself + Njz are 6ATs
    Stage 1 did better with pump gas and meth. I will Dzenno get the graphs up whenever he can. He is swamped with work right now.

  8. #308
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The "Stock Turbo" record is 461 WHP / 510 with full-bolt ons, meth & an e85 blend, boost peaking at 20psi. I'm putting down 461 WHP / 500 WTQ on just E85 with boost peaking at 19.5 and Njz is putting down 469 / 491 on just E85 also.

    I'm also not sure, but I think the BMS car is a 6MT and both myself + Njz are 6ATs
    I am thinking you guys are actually trying to blow up your stockers in order to try one of these new offerings.Click here to enlarge

  9. #309
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Stage 1 did better with pump gas and meth. I will Dzenno get the graphs up whenever he can. He is swamped with work right now.
    SOLID -- Knew I was gonna go with the Stage 1s when my OEMs eventually die, but even a minor performance gain is going to be great perk in addition to the lower pricing. Also sounds like all the components are going to be handle the "abuse" a lot better Click here to enlarge
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  10. #310
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    Dzenno's headwork being discounted as if anything a power reducer is very much incorrect. That head work made a very substantial difference on RBs. I believe he picked up about 80rwhp and 100ft/lb tq with the heads and RBs (over RBs without heads) on pump and meth and he had a virtually endless amounts of timing to play with. It was a situation of spin the turbos to the moon and see when they grenade type of thing, for the sake of research. This netted him 553hp/631tq.

    That head along with a properly sized turbo system (ie. VTT3) is going to be nothing short of amazing. But I'd be willing to bet that had he just installed new OEM units he'd be pulling similar numbers as he has just made. Despite some amount of conventional wisdom in that its all in the turbine housing/wheel, time and time again platforms have proven that solid head work does in fact get you a lot more on the same octane and also make much more power at the same boost levels even on the same undersized turbos. Unfortunately, headwork costs mucho dinero and is not the easiest install to perform.

    As for the race with the 5 series, I am pretty sure I know the owner. It is a 535xi AWD full weight, and he's fairly conservative with it (but did get a built trans only to play it safe and he figured why not as it was apart anyway). So take lots of weight of a 5 series compounded with the extra rotating mass of AWD, a moderate amount of boost vs. a tweaked to the max (even OEM turbo) well driven M6 335i that's quite a bit lighter and also tuned more aggressively it is not really a big shocker. Weight and tune pretty much mean everything, the hardware can't defy physics and it cant perform aggressively if it is not told to do as such. Will be interesting to see the full picture when presented.

    Rob

  11. #311
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    Dzenno's headwork being discounted as if anything a power reducer is very much incorrect. That head work made a very substantial difference on RBs. I believe he picked up about 80rwhp and 100ft/lb tq with the heads and RBs (over RBs without heads) on pump and meth and he had a virtually endless amounts of timing to play with. It was a situation of spin the turbos to the moon and see when they grenade type of thing, for the sake of research. This netted him 553hp/631tq.

    That head along with a properly sized turbo system (ie. VTT3) is going to be nothing short of amazing. But I'd be willing to bet that had he just installed new OEM units he'd be pulling similar numbers as he has just made. Despite some amount of conventional wisdom in that its all in the turbine housing/wheel, time and time again platforms have proven that solid head work does in fact get you a lot more on the same octane and also make much more power at the same boost levels even on the same undersized turbos. Unfortunately, headwork costs mucho dinero and is not the easiest install to perform.

    As for the race with the 5 series, I am pretty sure I know the owner. It is a 535xi AWD full weight, and he's fairly conservative with it (but did get a built trans only to play it safe and he figured why not as it was apart anyway). So take lots of weight of a 5 series compounded with the extra rotating mass of AWD, a moderate amount of boost vs. a tweaked to the max (even OEM turbo) well driven M6 335i that's quite a bit lighter and also tuned more aggressively it is not really a big shocker. Weight and tune pretty much mean everything, the hardware can't defy physics and it cant perform aggressively if it is not told to do as such. Will be interesting to see the full picture when presented.

    Rob
    I didn't and wouldn't discount the headwork at all. The headwork will help for sure on a big flowing set up like the VTX kits. But you like the other guy ignored the lowered compression which is very much a factor and the head work is being offset by the lowered compression at lower boost levels. If you want to argue that this is not the case, go right ahead. I will stand my ground on this. Bottom line everyone including yourself said stage 1's would see no gains and if anything make less power then stock. This is obviously not the case. I love how now that major power levels have been achieved everyone wants to talk about how crappy the head is and its limits. Reminds me of the stuff I read when I first joined these forums from a couple years back when the biggest players in the N54 game were saying the N54 couldn't make more then 500 in stock form without blowing up, then they raised it to 600 before it blows up. Now we are sitting at 725 with no engine work and the motor hasn't shown a sign of protest. Bottom line is, D didn't throw an aggressive over the top tune tune at these things. I know exactly what he is running and it is actually very mild with conservative boost levels. He made a crap load of tq throwing a lot of boost at them midrange, not surprising, but up top boost was lower then what they are running stock on E85 and he is on pump. My marketing was and is the same, if you are in the market for stock turbos, for the price you would at least have to look at a stage 1 option, IMO.

  12. #312
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    For the record, I thought our head sucked long ago and still do. I base by opinion on http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...ad-Development specifically the parts about N54, and relate them to values from other I6 platforms and other engines I've toyed with.

    I will say, that they have surprised me, so I will attempt to show respect to the stock head, it does A LOT with what it doesn't have in terms of flow. Stage 3 is a testament to Vargas and to the N54 in general, to achieve what you have achieved with this platform is to the best of my knowledge virtually unheard of on other platforms. Whether that's due to DI or sheer engineering and resolve makes little difference, results are results.

    Also, D's setup will give us a great idea of what stage 1 is capable of, in an octane-isn't-an-issue environment, for maxed out turbo's. You won't be able to really look at the numbers before the cross, or make any sense of the boost levels vs power output, but the peak should be the peak regardless. Still in for results! Upgraded stockers are a great idea, as long as they don't lose power it's going to be a win. Extra ponies, modest or extravagant, is just icing on the cake imo. Trimming turbines and replacing wheels has been a proven practice for years and while not being huge is definitely not worth discounting as trivial from what I've seen. Although, I'm no expert like Tony and Rob.

  13. #313
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    For the record, I thought our head sucked long ago and still do. I base by opinion on http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...ad-Development specifically the parts about N54, and relate them to values from other I6 platforms and other engines I've toyed with.

    I will say, that they have surprised me, so I will attempt to show respect to the stock head, it does A LOT with what it doesn't have in terms of flow. Stage 3 is a testament to Vargas and to the N54 in general, to achieve what you have achieved with this platform is to the best of my knowledge virtually unheard of on other platforms. Whether that's due to DI or sheer engineering and resolve makes little difference, results are results.

    Also, D's setup will give us a great idea of what stage 1 is capable of, in an octane-isn't-an-issue environment, for maxed out turbo's. You won't be able to really look at the numbers before the cross, or make any sense of the boost levels vs power output, but the peak should be the peak regardless. Still in for results! Upgraded stockers are a great idea, as long as they don't lose power it's going to be a win. Extra ponies, modest or extravagant, is just icing on the cake imo. Trimming turbines and replacing wheels has been a proven practice for years and while not being huge is definitely not worth discounting as trivial from what I've seen. Although, I'm no expert like Tony and Rob.
    I actually wasn't talking about you. You get a pass on whatever you say because you always say it intelligently and with zero bias. You just say it how it should be, I can appreciate that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I didn't and wouldn't discount the headwork at all. The headwork will help for sure on a big flowing set up like the VTX kits. But you like the other guy ignored the lowered compression which is very much a factor and the head work is being offset by the lowered compression at lower boost levels. .
    I don't see any reason to reference me here........

    I already explained earleir that I was ignorant of D's lower compression ratio.

    There is a difference between ignore and ignorant ya know.

    One is wilful while the other is not. I am 100% positive my intentions are not in the same cup as Rob's, so please don't paint me with the same brush as I find it offensive.

    And while I'm on this rant, let me remind you that I have been rooting for Vargas since you first announced yourself and I have been sharing positive feedback from people who are working directly with Dzenno and are seeing promise in your product compared to the RB's.

    /end rant.

  15. #315
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    Here's an update on my situation.

    The Stage 1 Turbos shipped from VTT last week. I called the BMW dealership this morning and they finally have all of the parts necessary. The service manager estimated that my car should be ready for pickup on Saturday at the latest.

    Like I said, my car is completely stock other than the Stage 1 turbos. I was thinking about putting it on a dyno to satisfy my own curiosity and give some quantitative information back about how the stage 1s perform.

    I figure I have a pretty good control test platform since it's otherwise stock.

    Anyway, I am in the Evansville, IN area. There is not an overwhelming abundance of dynomometers around here. The closest one is in Owensboro, KY. I missed their "dyno-day" where they will dyno your car for something like$35. They're booked a couple weeks out now, and it looks like it will cost me $100-$200 to get it dyno'ed.

    What's a reasonable dyno fee? Is there interest here for the results?

    --Alex

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigstupid Click here to enlarge
    Here's an update on my situation.

    The Stage 1 Turbos shipped from VTT last week. I called the BMW dealership this morning and they finally have all of the parts necessary. The service manager estimated that my car should be ready for pickup on Saturday at the latest.

    Like I said, my car is completely stock other than the Stage 1 turbos. I was thinking about putting it on a dyno to satisfy my own curiosity and give some quantitative information back about how the stage 1s perform.

    I figure I have a pretty good control test platform since it's otherwise stock.

    Anyway, I am in the Evansville, IN area. There is not an overwhelming abundance of dynomometers around here. The closest one is in Owensboro, KY. I missed their "dyno-day" where they will dyno your car for something like$35. They're booked a couple weeks out now, and it looks like it will cost me $100-$200 to get it dyno'ed.

    What's a reasonable dyno fee? Is there interest here for the results?

    --Alex
    Do you have a baseline so we know what your car was putting out stock? If varies from car to car. Alex you paid all that extra to Next day these things and they didn't have all the install parts, typical dealer...Click here to enlarge

  17. #317
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigstupid Click here to enlarge
    Here's an update on my situation.

    The Stage 1 Turbos shipped from VTT last week. I called the BMW dealership this morning and they finally have all of the parts necessary. The service manager estimated that my car should be ready for pickup on Saturday at the latest.

    Like I said, my car is completely stock other than the Stage 1 turbos. I was thinking about putting it on a dyno to satisfy my own curiosity and give some quantitative information back about how the stage 1s perform.

    I figure I have a pretty good control test platform since it's otherwise stock.

    Anyway, I am in the Evansville, IN area. There is not an overwhelming abundance of dynomometers around here. The closest one is in Owensboro, KY. I missed their "dyno-day" where they will dyno your car for something like$35. They're booked a couple weeks out now, and it looks like it will cost me $100-$200 to get it dyno'ed.

    What's a reasonable dyno fee? Is there interest here for the results?

    --Alex
    Completely stock meaning no tune as well? Likely will see no benefit other than increased reliability over the stock units.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  18. #318
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Ported head and LOWERED compression which would actually hurt your low end TQ and power. You will only see a benefit from the lowered compression running extremely high boost levels, which you will see he is not. I knew someone was going to try to throw that out there. Were making 725 on a stock non ported head with no issues, to all the people saying the stock head doesn't flow, not sure what what to tell you. But just to be clear, his lower compression would actually reduce numbers at lower boost levels, not raise them. And I told him to break them, he said what should I do, I said try to break them. He has tried and so far so good. But he is running very reasonable top end boost numbers and seeing great results. I keep bugging him to get the graphs...Click here to enlarge
    have we seen a log yet? thats a lot of talk for not showing boost/afr/timing etc. all those things that offer clarity

  19. #319
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    have we seen a log yet? thats a lot of talk for not showing boost/afr/timing etc. all those things that offer clarity
    There you go with that "we" again, exactly who is we. Because the people who need to see logs have seen logs. I think it was you who said it many times, I am the hardware maker, why are you asking me for logs? The guy that is tuning and running the products is on this forum. Feel free to ask him.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigstupid Click here to enlarge
    What's a reasonable dyno fee? Is there interest here for the results?

    --Alex
    Dyno fees vary between $75-$150 depending on where you go, RWD vs. AWD and how many pulls (3 pulls vs. 1/2 hr rental). Without a OEM stock turbo baseline, there really isn't going to be any results to compare & quantify. What would've been ideal is if you had a stock turbo baseline & then ran the Vargas Stage 1s and they showed a minor performance increase with no adjustments made to the tune.


    Oh well, enjoy your new snails!
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    I would be interested in how these perform, I am likely going to be finding the stock limit on these turbos in the next week or so and when I do they need to be replaced pretty quickly and I am not ready to move into stage 2 territory yet since I will then run into AT issues. Post some good stuff D, keeping the results quiet is creating a sense that the stage 1 turbos are not worth upgrading to even though I believe (personally) that is untrue. Either that or Tony send terry a set today and he will have them installed, tuned and post results by the weekend.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    There you go with that "we" again, exactly who is we. Because the people who need to see logs have seen logs. I think it was you who said it many times, I am the hardware maker, why are you asking me for logs? The guy that is tuning and running the products is on this forum. Feel free to ask him.
    we is the $#@!ing public shiv.. i mean VTT..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    we is the $#@!ing public shiv.. i mean VTT..
    So let me get this straight, first you make it known, that I am a hardware maker and any and all tuning questions should be pointed to the tuners, now you are asking me for logs and I point you to the tuner and I am Shiv. Hmmmm, thats pretty interesting. As I said in like 20 posts, when Dzenno wants to post logs he will, all the tuning is in his hands. Pretty sure Stage 2 betas have already posted some logs after they asked my permission I told them go right ahead. You really should try to avoid stepping on your own words if possible. You have been talking $#@! since I showed up here, you are never going to buy one product. You are what is known as a time waster. Good day to you sir

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    Unfortunately, I don't have a stock baseline.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigstupid Click here to enlarge
    Unfortunately, I don't have a stock baseline.
    What we really need to see is logs, the stock tune is targeting a specific load, so it should still "make" the same HP as the stock turbos - but more efficiently (less boost).
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

    Click here to enlarge

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