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Thread: Our ProEFI N54

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Just like your Genny, toooooooo slow Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge
    Ohhhhhh! Ouch lol.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by undercoverangie Click here to enlarge
    Genny is my temporary race car... come see me in a month or two when I get my sunday funday car ... and Genny is the first of her kind... she is badass regardless... and her ass is better looking then your cars..Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Tell us more about this Sunday funday car...

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Tell us more about this Sunday funday car...
    because Supra?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by undercoverangie Click here to enlarge
    and her ass is better looking then your cars..
    Click here to enlarge Cannot argue with the truth
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Cannot argue with the truth
    =D she's one sexy lady
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge
    Because...... sexy
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    2 videos:

    1st one answers the Traction Control question
    http://youtu.be/phrfUvKYZpA

    2nd one answers the Turbo E46 M3 success with the ProEFI
    http://youtu.be/BWryF1DjxxA
    lol, i was going to post that m3 vid as well Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by undercoverangie Click here to enlarge
    First, we need to fix a few things stated by @benzy89 ......

    The Injector testing is NOT for secondary fuel Injectors, it is for the DI injectors..why??... because =) they are coded by the factory that makes them.. not BMW. BMW has 0 clue based on the code on the side of the injector of its flow rate. The codes on the injector means nothing to anybody beside the manufacturer that makes them. It is plausible that once we check enough injectors that there will be no need for further flow testing, however.. only time will tell.

    Although Garths car runs on the 128 box currently, that will be removed in favor of the 112 box shortly. The 128 box will NOT be an option for this application as the 112 box suits it much better due to more CAN channels. It is equally as capable as the 128 just slightly smaller and less expensive and is designed for later model applications.

    The pricing is for hardware only, install and tuning will be roughly the same as other vehicles, $800 install(you can of course add more options that will cost more) + $800 tune(2 fuels)

    @klipseracer The 112 box controls DI with the help of an external injector driver.

    I think a couple of you failed to understand the complexity of this application. The DI is only a small portion of the problems we have had to overcome. From; CAM triggers to VANOS control to electronic throttle control, just to get the engine running and happy =) Once this was done, the DI became a viable option. It wasn't but a few months ago that things looked very bleak for this application. However, with a lot of hard work by Garth and the guys at ProEFI things are looking better then ever.

    Remember nobody else has done this but us =)

    As much as we would like to tune EVERY N54 on ProEFI in the country, this will not be the case, there will be at a minimum of 8 highly qualified tuners to help you guys out. More then likely we will be the sole distributor of the hardware since we have done all of the leg work. We believe that we are at least owed this. Poor Garth hasn't had his car since November of 2011 for you guys...OK... for us too =)
    ah thanks, so it's checking the DI injectors JUST TO BE SURE? that's okay, be nice if it turns out it's unneeded haha

    so why is it SO MUCH more expensive than ANY OTHER proEFI application? it's damn near twice the price of an E46 M3 hardware alone?.. and does it or does it not include the port injection setup? if it does, that's fine, it's a $1000 manifold, and injectors and rail isn't cheap as well

    if not.... guys... wow. like i said potentially up to $10k all told? jeez.. and twice the price (near, or WAY more than at this point) of the higher-numbered 128 model...

    if the 112 is more powerful/upgrade of the 128, why give it a lower number haha

    ED: would it be an option (to get it cheaper since you seem to be implying the harness is a major expense adder?) to NOT get a plug and play harness? since for most of the build i'm going to have a damn near spaghetti-pile anyway haha

    ED2: and small niggles, but many other standalones (cheaper) do FBW throttle and VVT - sure it could be slightly more complex with BMW, but it's nothing unique?
    Last edited by Flinchy; 04-25-2013 at 10:16 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    LOVE the features but that price ... Click here to enlarge dont u guys feel thats just been priced wrong given where the n54 market is right now?
    +1. more expensive than stage 3 turbo setup potentially... more expensive than a full custom big single... that's a lot of scratch.

    ED: and let me get this straight... i'm planning on spending many many tens of thousands getting my car completely perfect, so i'm not afraid of spending a lot to get the job done right

    but... it's all gotta be worth it, and the price for this is ESPECIALLY high.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    +1. more expensive than stage 3 turbo setup potentially... more expensive than a full custom big single... that's a lot of scratch.

    ED: and let me get this straight... i'm planning on spending many many tens of thousands getting my car completely perfect, so i'm not afraid of spending a lot to get the job done right

    but... it's all gotta be worth it, and the price for this is ESPECIALLY high.
    then dont buy it

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    then dont buy it
    it's still not entirely clear what the price gets you though...

    it may turn out that it's the best thing since sliced bread and is worth every penny for a barebones setup

    as it stands, it's twice the price of any other proEFI kit for basically exactly the same thing (assuming you don't get the PI setup included.. which ENTIRELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF USING IT).. simply a standalone that has the ability to work on the N54.. presumably probably not much better than cobb/JB unless you go a single or really want flex-fuel capability.. and even that's going to change eventually.. and it's a high price for those two features.

    $4800 + install is toe to toe with the price of an M800 just about >_< - heck you can get them cheaper than that.

  12. #712
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    oh and

    actually, one more question:

    "What is going on now, is direct injection, thanks to another manufacturer that uses an external injector driver controller. This is currently being implemented into the new 112 ProEFI Box."

    is the 112 going to support the DI onboard, or is it going to use an external controller - which has been done on other standalones before... if it's using an external controller, then.. why? if it's going to be on-board using technology the other manufacturer uses.. GREAT.

    ED: also remembering it's now possible to crack AT LEAST 720whp on the stock controlled DI setup, more than likely up well over 800whp...
    Last edited by Flinchy; 04-26-2013 at 12:26 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    it's a pretty interesting read.. custom port injection manifold with a standalone running along side the DME?

    i'm really not expecting <$5k >_>
    As far as i understand proefi, it's a full standalone... With bigger turbos and more people doing head/internal work, might see a few proefi owners finally raise the redline? Click here to enlarge

    Should be able to see some ridiculous numbers with people game enough to play with it lol

    Not to mention the nitrous ports they're building in to the new manifold..

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    @LostMarine

    yes, not expecting <$5k INCLUDING the manifold, rail setup (so by not expecting<$5k i meant i expect around $5k)

    we're talking $6400 installed and tuned PLUS the manifold, rail, injectors.. $5k for JUST the DI controlling proEFI.

    my initial comment still stands. my current confusion also still stands.

    ED: though initial comment could now be altered that big twins can reach big power under modified direct injection on stock ECU.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    but... it's all gotta be worth it, and the price for this is ESPECIALLY high.
    Flinchy, you need to get past the costs thing because if you're already complaining about the cost & looking for cheap ways to reduce the cost, this clearly isn't a product for you. If you want it done right & to have the ultimate turn-key solution, you need to accept the fact it's going to cost some serious coin. Here's some things to consider before you post about why it's so expensive:


    1. Every other tune (COBB, JB4, PROcede, RENNtech, GIAC, etc etc etc) you are limited to the OEM DME tuning tables that have been unlocked & very basic features. Not the case with ProEFI (we'll revisit the benefits of the ProEFI over the current options in #5)
    2. Yes, it is going to be more expensive then the alternative tune options, here's why: Market Share. Market share is the same reason why Vortech kits for a Mustang or Chevy cost ~1/3 a Vortech costs on an M3.
    3. Since you're focusing on the cost difference between the S54 & N54, here's a major variable: you're going to need an external engine management system to properly tune a heavily modded S54 because it didn't come turbo'd from BMW (there's no factory tables to modify like the N54's DME), which forces people who want to turbo their cars to buy an ECM like the ProEFI & forces an increase in consumers.
    4. ProEFI's R&D costs -- The amount of man hours & technology invested to adapt their ECU to the N54 (so your idea of buying a Motec M800 won't work because of the same problems ProEFI had with the cam triggers & VANOS).
    5. IF you want the ultimate tuning module for the N54 & to maximize the performance potential of any turbo setup (from Stock Twins, RBs, Vargas Stage 2+3s, Single Turbos), you're going to need the ProEFI. While the current tune options address the needs of majority of people modifying the N54, the ProEFI offers so much more than isn't possible on the OEM DME. Additional features that are only going to be available via the ProEFI like: Anti-Lag from a Roll or Dig, Boost by Gear, No Lift Shifting, complete Flex Fuel, Nitrous & Methanol Management, an Aftermarket Manifold with Port Injection, the significantly more advanced Traction Control, a better aftermarket fueling controller, boost tuning from 3.5 to 7 Bar, additional channel monitoring (oil, pressure, EGTs, coolant temps, etc). The ProEFI is also going to be a lot more friendly when people start heavily building the motor & raise the redline (OEM DME prob will hate & refuse to rev the motor above 7k) AND if people want to ditch the vacuum controlled WGs (that's why the Vargas kit works so well with COBB, because it replicates the OEM turbo setup).



    If these features & benefits don't justify the price to you, don't buy it. But don't be upset when somebody with the exact same setup & a ProEFI start blowing past you because their setup is tapping into power that you can't utilize with the mainstream tune options.
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Flinchy, you need to get past the costs thing because if you're already complaining about the cost & looking for cheap ways to reduce the cost, this clearly isn't a product for you. If you want it done right & to have the ultimate turn-key solution, you need to accept the fact it's going to cost some serious coin. Here's some things to consider before you post about why it's so expensive:


    1. Every other tune (COBB, JB4, PROcede, RENNtech, GIAC, etc etc etc) you are limited to the OEM DME tuning tables that have been unlocked & very basic features. Not the case with ProEFI (we'll revisit the benefits of the ProEFI over the current options in #5)
    2. Yes, it is going to be more expensive then the alternative tune options, here's why: Market Share. Market share is the same reason why Vortech kits for a Mustang or Chevy cost ~1/3 a Vortech costs on an M3.
    3. Since you're focusing on the cost difference between the S54 & N54, here's a major variable: you're going to need an external engine management system to properly tune a heavily modded S54 because it didn't come turbo'd from BMW (there's no factory tables to modify like the N54's DME), which forces people who want to turbo their cars to buy an ECM like the ProEFI & forces an increase in consumers.
    4. ProEFI's R&D costs -- The amount of man hours & technology invested to adapt their ECU to the N54 (so your idea of buying a Motec M800 won't work because of the same problems ProEFI had with the cam triggers & VANOS).
    5. IF you want the ultimate tuning module for the N54 & to maximize the performance potential of any turbo setup (from Stock Twins, RBs, Vargas Stage 2+3s, Single Turbos), you're going to need the ProEFI. While the current tune options address the needs of majority of people modifying the N54, the ProEFI offers so much more than isn't possible on the OEM DME. Additional features that are only going to be available via the ProEFI like: Anti-Lag from a Roll or Dig, Boost by Gear, No Lift Shifting, complete Flex Fuel, Nitrous & Methanol Management, an Aftermarket Manifold with Port Injection, the significantly more advanced Traction Control, a better aftermarket fueling controller, boost tuning from 3.5 to 7 Bar, additional channel monitoring (oil, pressure, EGTs, coolant temps, etc). The ProEFI is also going to be a lot more friendly when people start heavily building the motor & raise the redline (OEM DME prob will hate & refuse to rev the motor above 7k) AND if people want to ditch the vacuum controlled WGs (that's why the Vargas kit works so well with COBB, because it replicates the OEM turbo setup).



    If these features & benefits don't justify the price to you, don't buy it. But don't be upset when somebody with the exact same setup & a ProEFI start blowing past you because their setup is tapping into power that you can't utilize with the mainstream tune options.
    so the fact it's better than other current tuning options makes it completely okay for it to cost twice as much as other proEFI units? while still not being entirely the full package that was talked about from the start?

    point 2+3 you have all wrong... how many people are running/will run a turbo M3? a small handful.
    how many people would be interested in a standalone for their N54? i could probably count 10+ right off the bat. a much larger handful.

    if price:benefit isn't a thing for you, i honestly envy your vast wealth.

    it's priced in the upper upper upper echelons of standalones as is, so i'd really hope that it justifies this in it's performance.

    ED: not to mention.. the piggies offer NLS, boost by gear, CAN (if it ever got developed) offer flex-fuel, DO offer meth, can (or do?) offer nitrous control. i'm sure the proEFI will *somehow* do it all better, but it's gotta be a LOT better.

    i don't really understand your last statement... tuning is for the most part tuning, it's not going to magically gain power at a given timing/vanos/boost/compression (well.. it SHOULDN'T apples to apples) lol.

    again, assuming it's the $4800 + install + tuning + port injection setup... like i said, we're looking at $8000-9000 MINIMUM... what other non-supercar platforms cost this much for similar?

    yes i know obviously the proEFI setup is going to be MILES AND MILES BETTER THAN STOCK DME for many many many reasons and applications. but with your logic? hell, why don't they just straight up charge $10k without installation and tuning, it's obviously worth it.

    ED: and for your opening statement - i'm DIYing just about everything on my car, from teardown to engine install (yeah i decided to, for fun and so i know it's done the way i want)... it's not JUST a matter of cost saving, it's a matter of 'well i can do it and if it's cheaper all the better?'
    Last edited by Flinchy; 04-26-2013 at 03:08 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    3. ProEFI's R&D costs -- The amount of man hours & technology invested to adapt their ECU to the N54 (so your idea of buying a Motec M800 won't work because of the same problems ProEFI had with the cam triggers & VANOS).
    oh and just on this point.. so the other BMW's that proEFI can run that have similar setup (you know.. VANOS etc.) with the only real MAJOR difference being DI vs PI.. is significantly significantly easier?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    ED: not to mention.. the piggies offer NLS, boost by gear, CAN (if it ever got developed) offer flex-fuel, DO offer meth, can (or do?) offer nitrous control. i'm sure the proEFI will *somehow* do it all better, but it's gotta be a LOT better.
    they cant do all at once, plus the extras'; if you dont like what it can do, at the price, dont buy. its a simple concept.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    they cant do all at once, plus the extras'; if you dont like what it can do, at the price, dont buy. its a simple concept.
    yeah, and there's many features they COULD have were the development time given to them

    don't get me wrong, i'm really hoping this product turns out to be the best thing for the N54 since sliced bread.

    but it already had a lot to live up to, now it's got an even harder time proving itself since it's not going to have much in the way of 'value for money' which it very well could have... and the PI setup it will be able to run is going to cost an arm and a leg AND a kidney.

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    I would say wait and see the results before you question the cost, this setup is going to show how far the platform can truly be pushed since the DME becomes a limiting factor at some point. Once that roadblock is removed the results will either speak for themselves or it will prove to be to high a price for the gains you receive. I think before this is over analyzed and scrutinized we should let garth and proefi put their hard work on the table to be judged as a final product. I know since vargas has come along we have been spoiled with up to the minute updates on the projects for this platform but this is groundbreaking stuff here not a simple innovation.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



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    http://www.ebay.com/itm/MoTeC-M800-ECU-/170732789013

    Where are you getting your information from?????... and this is Ebay...

    By the time you are done with MoTeC optioned the same as a ProEFI it's about $15,000.

    The E46 M3 is one of the most expensive kits out there next to Porsche (996/997 harness~$1624), Genesis Coupe(harness~$1504)(-__- ), Vette(harness~$1242) and GTR(harness~$1092).

    Here is the break down for the E46 M3 all done with out a CAN display:

    9100 Pro 128 Box~~~~~~~~~$2023
    9000 150 PSI Sensor~~~~~~~$146
    9004 5Bar Map Sensor~~~~~~$146
    9006 IAT Sensor~~~~~~~~~$50
    9019 O2 Sensor~~~~~~~~~$145
    8002 3 Channel Ignitor~~~~~$285(x2)
    2006 Flex Fuel Sensor~~~~~~$320
    3422 Injector resistor~~~~~~$15(x6)
    3423 E46 ECU Bracket~~~~~ $225
    4051 PnP Harness~~~~~~~~ $1217
    9020 I-Boost Controller~~~~~$144
    9007 Boost Control Solenoid~~$83
    __________________________________
    Kit Total:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~$5159
    Plus Install/Tune~~~~~~~~~~~$1600
    ___________________________________
    Grand total~~~~~~~~~~~~~~$6759



    Guys this is another level of performance if you think you are going to have an 800+ whp car on a budget... I promise you when it's all said and done.. you will have a LOT more in it the you initially thought....
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    oh and just on this point.. so the other BMW's that proEFI can run that have similar setup (you know.. VANOS etc.) with the only real MAJOR difference being DI vs PI.. is significantly significantly easier?
    They're already said the N54 cam trigger wheel was completely different then the S54, which is why they had the speed bump, which forced them to do some research rewrite all the software from scratch.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    point 2+3 you have all wrong... how many people are running/will run a turbo M3? a small handful.
    how many people would be interested in a standalone for their N54? i could probably count 10+ right off the bat. a much larger handful.

    if price:benefit isn't a thing for you, i honestly envy your vast wealth.
    Without a doubt, there are many more people running the ProEFI on an E46 M3 then people that would run the ProEFI on the N54, for exactly the reasons I said -- Majority of the N54 owners are completely content with the power they're producing on their current tune. AND just like how there are significantly more people running the ProEFI on their Supra + GTR, the harnesses can be priced lower. So once again, Larger Market Share = Lower Pricing.

    I'm done modding this car (between the 6AT and the fact that it's a DD), but I have decided that the next car I'd like to mod is a 997.1 Turbo (AWD, Incredible Performance with German Refinement) and that I'd like to go all out & do it right. Which means if I'm going to pour a ton of cash into the engine, that I'm gonna want the best ECU (which doesn't mean cheap) to make sure I don't explode the toy. When modifying ANY car, there's 3 options and you can only pick 2:

    1. Cheap
    2. Reliable
    3. Fast


    YES, you can go fast for "cheap" with the COBB and/or Piggy setup, but if you really think about it you've now spent ~$1.5k on a tune that limits you to the unlocked OEM tables & the manufacturer tuning limitations.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    i don't really understand your last statement... tuning is for the most part tuning, it's not going to magically gain power at a given timing/vanos/boost/compression (well.. it SHOULDN'T apples to apples) lol.

    again, assuming it's the $4800 + install + tuning + port injection setup... like i said, we're looking at $8000-9000 MINIMUM... what other non-supercar platforms cost this much for similar?
    Tuning is tuning, but all our current options are very limited to what we actually can tune. Look in ATR, the fueling tables are very one dimensional and boost is a $#@! to raise above 20psi. Meanwhile, the 1M has the same exact motor but gets 3D throttle + fueling tables. With the ProEFI, you'd be able to easily surpass & tune more in-depth then what COBB has unlocked, thus exposing more safe power.

    Like Angie pointed out, if you decided to go with a full Motec setup you're gonna easily be in the $10k area, especially if you have it installed neatly and with all the extra sensors to make sure everythings running happy. And with the Motec (or Syvecs) you don't get complete FlexFuel, you get the exact same thing you get with the COBB. You can have a small collection of maps (93 octane Map, 100 octane Map/Low Boost, E85 Map/Medium Boost, FTW E85 Map/High Boost, etc) and switch from one to the next manually. The ProEFI you can have any percentage of E85 in the tank and it'll automatically compensate. And AFAIK, Motec + Syvecs also do not have Rolling Anti-Lag (only from a dig) and a Traction Control system as advanced as the ProEFI.


    IF you're going BIG HP (specifically Vargas Stage 3s + Single Turbo), the most expensive thing on the car should be the ECU because it's the brain of the whole operation.
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    @undercoverangie
    You guys need to take a Vargas stage 3 car/Vishnu FFtec Single/or my custom 6466 and do your thing with it...Then results will speak for themselves. We are the crowd that would be going this route. Hell sponser my car and ill send it to you. It will open the door for many others to say F the rules and build a setup strictly with power in mind not limitations to current tunes like we did Click here to enlarge
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
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    4800.... If we could get that number down to 4k somehow, that wouldn't be a huge leap for what you're getting...

    Procede: $745 + $795 FlexFuel + $95 Procede Flash = ~$1700

    $2300 premium to have a REAL solution is a reasonable price to pay for the supplemental fueling, anti lag, nitrous/meth control, boost by gear, superior traction etc...

    Think about how many people have purchased multiple tunes or suffer from restrictions like wastegate configurations or 02 sensor placement... This IS your solution and yes there is a cost.

    I think that once the numbers come out, and the securities you get with the ProEFI and the look of the graphs and flexibility you'll receive, ProEFI will make its own market here. Its not rampant yet, but the day WILL come when upgraded internals and headwork is done and big power is made, 1k+ and ProEFI will be behind that I can see it. You guys lust over those videos of supras, TT Gallardos, GTRs, porsches, and they are no different, they've put in the time and money. We get to see whose got the dough and who doesn't. This game was never an inexpensive one, and the DME will never do all the things the ProEFI will. I think a lack of understanding of the benefits is part of the problem here and a little enlightenment on the superiority of the ProEFI units is in order.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 04-26-2013 at 01:46 PM.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    @undercoverangie
    You guys need to take a Vargas stage 3 car/Vishnu FFtec Single/or my custom 6466 and do your thing with it...Then results will speak for themselves. We are the crowd that would be going this route. Hell sponser my car and ill send it to you. It will open the door for many others to say F the rules and build a setup strictly with power in mind not limitations to current tunes like we did Click here to enlarge

    well.... we have our own car.. so sponsoring is out of the question unless your willing to push harder then we are.....which is doubtful Click here to enlarge

    Hang a 7675 with a 300 shot and out manifold and we'll talk Click here to enlarge that's our plan atleast Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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