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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Cobb and others read the DME in similar ways. But Cobb is more focused on end user convenience. On other platforms many shops will elect to read/write the ECU themselves instead of using the Cobb interface for higher HP apps.
    bingo

  2. #27
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    In response to the earlier question directed at me, and I apologize early for the length (I only have one post):


    1. Yes, you must visit a GIAC dealer network to be flashed. While we try to have a dealer in all major areas, I realize that this will never offer the convenience of flashing at home.


    2.


    While ATR allows you to change the maps for boost, fueling etc., you cannot go beyond this. With the MSD80 DME, there are too many calculations and correctional factors to only change the maps and see linear gains. There are shortcuts around some of these limitations, which are present even in flash tunes. With a piggy-back tune, you can easily circumvent and stay within range of any correctional factors by feeding false (and more favorable) information. With a flash tune, while you can do this to some values, at some point you will run into the aforementioned limitations. This is where we begin to explain how much faster stock turbo piggy-back equipped vehicles have been, despite some flashes requesting higher boost and having more control over timing. Even with all of the excitement surrounding flash tunes, to my knowledge we still have the stock turbo trap speed record with a flash (119.97 and that vehicle had a JB+ on top of it). Up to this point, I think it is hard to argue with the fact that stock turbo piggy-back vehicles have been faster than their flash tune counterparts (and this is supported by their trap speeds).


    Going back to the limitations in the DME, you will still see incremental performance improvements by just changing the maps, but this is where drivability issues will tend to surface themselves. At this point in time, it is hard to show the tangible benefits of remapping the entire DME because our current offerings only run around 16psi, and usually less timing than custom files. While you can make performance comparisons to another OTS flash file, at this point we are talking about more aggressively tuned files. Additionally, we haven't offered performance revisions to our files since 2009 (long overdue). If you look back to the thread "Cobb - GIAC Data Logging" from 2011, it is interesting to see how things looked just over a year ago.


    I hope that once we release our new Race maps, we can all compare accurate performance statistics to gauge whether reflashing the entire DME is worth the extra time and effort. We have put significant development time into this new Race file, far beyond just changing the maps for more boost and/or less timing and measuring gains. The new file also served to further enhance our understanding of the MSD80 DME, as well its limitations. We have used much of this knowledge in the development of our files for BT applications in Europe, and we expect to utilize these files for RB setups as well (more information will come on this).


    With all of this being said, there are no bad offerings in the N54 market. Each option has its tangible benefits and advantages to each individual. There are areas in which we will likely never be able to compete with other options, namely at-home flashing and the ability to tweak your file. While we try to make up for these disadvantages by offering a polished software option, ultimately it comes down to consumer preference and what option best suits your application. I hope that people have a chance to try different software options, because my words can only say so much. Nothing can replace actually feeling different options, and gauging the tangible similarities and differences for yourself.

  3. #28
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    nice points, thomas. :thumbsup:

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Thomas@GIAC Click here to enlarge
    In response to the earlier question directed at me, and I apologize early for the length (I only have one post):1. Yes, you must visit a GIAC dealer network to be flashed. While we try to have a dealer in all major areas, I realize that this will never offer the convenience of flashing at home.2. While ATR allows you to change the maps for boost, fueling etc., you cannot go beyond this. With the MSD80 DME, there are too many calculations and correctional factors to only change the maps and see linear gains. There are shortcuts around some of these limitations, which are present even in flash tunes. With a piggy-back tune, you can easily circumvent and stay within range of any correctional factors by feeding false (and more favorable) information. With a flash tune, while you can do this to some values, at some point you will run into the aforementioned limitations. This is where we begin to explain how much faster stock turbo piggy-back equipped vehicles have been, despite some flashes requesting higher boost and having more control over timing. Even with all of the excitement surrounding flash tunes, to my knowledge we still have the stock turbo trap speed record with a flash (119.97 and that vehicle had a JB+ on top of it). Up to this point, I think it is hard to argue with the fact that stock turbo piggy-back vehicles have been faster than their flash tune counterparts (and this is supported by their trap speeds).Going back to the limitations in the DME, you will still see incremental performance improvements by just changing the maps, but this is where drivability issues will tend to surface themselves. At this point in time, it is hard to show the tangible benefits of remapping the entire DME because our current offerings only run around 16psi, and usually less timing than custom files. While you can make performance comparisons to another OTS flash file, at this point we are talking about more aggressively tuned files. Additionally, we haven't offered performance revisions to our files since 2009 (long overdue). If you look back to the thread "Cobb - GIAC Data Logging" from 2011, it is interesting to see how things looked just over a year ago.I hope that once we release our new Race maps, we can all compare accurate performance statistics to gauge whether reflashing the entire DME is worth the extra time and effort. We have put significant development time into this new Race file, far beyond just changing the maps for more boost and/or less timing and measuring gains. The new file also served to further enhance our understanding of the MSD80 DME, as well its limitations. We have used much of this knowledge in the development of our files for BT applications in Europe, and we expect to utilize these files for RB setups as well (more information will come on this).With all of this being said, there are no bad offerings in the N54 market. Each option has its tangible benefits and advantages to each individual. There are areas in which we will likely never be able to compete with other options, namely at-home flashing and the ability to tweak your file. While we try to make up for these disadvantages by offering a polished software option, ultimately it comes down to consumer preference and what option best suits your application. I hope that people have a chance to try different software options, because my words can only say so much. Nothing can replace actually feeling different options, and gauging the tangible similarities and differences for yourself.
    Actually, the flash-only stock turbo record is held by @Laloosh at 120.31 mph with Cobb.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Actually, the flash-only stock turbo record is held by @Laloosh at 120.31 mph with Cobb.
    Dont know how credible it is, but Shiv pointed out that the 119.97 run by MR. 5 was at a track known to have timing issues. After they fixed them, his traps wouldnt pass 115. I think cstavu probably has the highest credible GIAC trap at 118.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Dont know how credible it is, but Shiv pointed out that the 119.97 run by MR. 5 was at a track known to have timing issues. After they fixed them, his traps wouldnt pass 115. I think cstavu probably has the highest credible GIAC trap at 118.
    Ah forgot about that. Shiv is right, that trap speed was done at sac raceway, the same place where shiv trapped 125.9 mph (lol) on a full weight stock turbo N54.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vwgrk1 Click here to enlarge
    In short, no. ATP, which the tuners use, has more features.

    To cut you off at the pass, no, I do not know what those features are Click here to enlarge
    Ok that's one I wanted to know. If ATR did everything all the other flash companies could do then I would say I don't understand why people would go another route. But I do feel it's surprising that so many people will limit themselves with only a single flash. I think its important to have multiple octane flashes (traveling out of state where some don't have 93 on tap) and would imagine you'd have a slightly different tune depending on what track you were racing at.

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