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  1. #1
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    People switching flash tunes

    I'm confused as why some people switch flash tune and why some people buy other tunes. Piggy's aside since they control boost completely different and this isn't a debate of piggy vs flash. I don't understand how certain unnamed flash company's sell so many for a one time love it or hate it flash when for cheaper you can get an AP and have a small selection of tunes and if it's feel your after you can use ATR to create a power deliver exactly how you like it on whatever octane of gas you have. I don't get these people either switching or shelling out well over a grand for a single flash and even the warranty aspect doesn't make alot of sense with the amount of people that's used it under warranty and never heard of anybody getting caught. Sorry for the vent it just irritates me when people get a tune and say how much better it feels when they didn't even play around with ATR.

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    To each their own

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vladi627 Click here to enlarge
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    To each their own
    Exactly.

    Why do people buy Dinan anything?

    Some people dont want to, or cant figure out, how to tinker with things. Additionally, some of the tunes drive better or are more robust than others. There are just many ways to skin a cat. I will tell you though that the dumber tunes are less popular, and that makes sense...

  4. #4
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    A lot of people just want a tune they don't have to mess with. Just pull up to a dealer and flash the ECU and be done with it. You're paying for the convenience(assuming you live near the tuner) and the name. It's all in what the customer wants.
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    If you ignore piggybacks then Cobb is the only flash tune I see people buying. And for good reason. At home flashing, good base maps, good resale value, you can get pro maps made, reasonable pricing, you can run our free backend flash map with it and then use a JB4 for addl features, etc. Lots of flexibility with it.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 09-12-2012 at 11:16 AM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    There are certain calibrations beyond the maps that simply must be modified at the calibrator level. It isn't feasible to expect an enthusiast to find, let alone reprogram these limitations. This is where you see the idea of "feel" or drivability come in, whereas you are thinking strictly in terms of performance.

    It is great to be able to modify your own maps, and I certainly understand the draw in this. I like to tweak my own car, and you certainly can extract that last bit of performance. But for those who aren't utilizing varying blends of fuel and one-off setups, they prefer to have the development work completed for them. It simply come down to a matter of what suits the individual's purposes, and it is hard to fault anyone for going either direction.

  7. #7
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Thomas@GIAC Click here to enlarge
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    There are certain calibrations beyond the maps that simply must be modified at the calibrator level. It isn't feasible to expect an enthusiast to find, let alone reprogram these limitations. This is where you see the idea of "feel" or drivability come in, whereas you are thinking strictly in terms of performance.

    It is great to be able to modify your own maps, and I certainly understand the draw in this. I like to tweak my own car, and you certainly can extract that last bit of performance. But for those who aren't utilizing varying blends of fuel and one-off setups, they prefer to have the development work completed for them. It simply come down to a matter of what suits the individual's purposes, and it is hard to fault anyone for going either direction.
    +rep for that fair response
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    it's really specific to different platforms. flash tunes and their convenience, control over engine parameters, and overall consistancy have made them the most popular choice on MOST other platforms. honda/acura platforms and mitsu/suby platforms used to have their fair share of piggybacks. then, hondata, cobb, etc came out and everyone ditched the piggy's in favor of a true flash tune.

    piggy's on the e90/e82 community are huge. they are much more developed and better integrated than on any other platform. yes, the best tune is a dyno tuned custom flash specific to your car, conditions, modificaitons, etc. the piggy's still provide incredible performance and integration, without having to customize the "tune" to the platform. cobb's Off-The-Shelf maps are relatively conservative. ATR and outfits such as DZ's have really taken flash tuning to the next level.


    i have a shop nearby my house that has a dyno and a flash-tuning piece of hardware, where they custom dyno tune cars with no accessport required. yes, they have tons of experience with 800, 900, 1,000 hp cars. it's probably the best route to save money, get the best performance, and have the most reliability and consistancy.

    for guys not near a shop with the similar hardware tuning devices, an accessport that is pro-tuned is probably going to be your best option.


    /lengthy post

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Thomas@GIAC Click here to enlarge
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    There are certain calibrations beyond the maps that simply must be modified at the calibrator level. It isn't feasible to expect an enthusiast to find, let alone reprogram these limitations. This is where you see the idea of "feel" or drivability come in, whereas you are thinking strictly in terms of performance.

    It is great to be able to modify your own maps, and I certainly understand the draw in this. I like to tweak my own car, and you certainly can extract that last bit of performance. But for those who aren't utilizing varying blends of fuel and one-off setups, they prefer to have the development work completed for them. It simply come down to a matter of what suits the individual's purposes, and it is hard to fault anyone for going either direction.

    Thomas since your chiming in here I'll ask a few questions that you would know best. I'm in no way trying to say anything negative as I've only heard good things and happy customers.
    1. You have to go to a shop to have your maps flashed or reflashed correct? assuming that what I read is correct and that's the case then that is the biggest drawback I see flash tunes.
    2. Are you doing anything in your tunes that is not capable of doing with ATR?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brusk Click here to enlarge
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    Thomas since your chiming in here I'll ask a few questions that you would know best. I'm in no way trying to say anything negative as I've only heard good things and happy customers.
    1. You have to go to a shop to have your maps flashed or reflashed correct? assuming that what I read is correct and that's the case then that is the biggest drawback I see flash tunes.
    2. Are you doing anything in your tunes that is not capable of doing with ATR?
    Keep in mind he is limited in his ability to respond to you.

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    also, GIAC has dyno's and the proper equipment. if you wanted them to, and they had the time (and payment from you, of course), they could feasibly dyno tune your car with a custom flash just like ATR/Cobb. only difference would be that you wouldn't have the ability to switch back to stock map or datalog like you can with cobb. GIAC has a stellar reputation in other platforms. i feel like they should have invented a "at-home flash" like the accessport, 4 or 5 years ago. they would've taken over on e90post before robb@cobb ever dreamed of tuning the n54. either way though, Cobb and GIAC offer solid flash tuning. GIAC's delivery mechinism is inferior, unless you live near a GIAC dealer and don't mind visiting them for reflashes or flash back to stocks.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bryce Click here to enlarge
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    i have a shop nearby my house that has a dyno and a flash-tuning piece of hardware, where they custom dyno tune cars with no accessport required. yes, they have tons of experience with 800, 900, 1,000 hp cars. it's probably the best route to save money, get the best performance, and have the most reliability and consistancy.
    Are you sure they can load a Cobb map to your car without you having an accessport? I want to load the BMS mp to my car, but don't want to shell out the full $700 for the Cobb at this time.

    ATP says you can tune a bunch of car, but they must be accessport equipped:

    "Unlimited number of AccessPORT equipped vehicles can be tuned"

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Are you sure they can load a Cobb map to your car without you having an accessport? I want to load the BMS mp to my car, but don't want to shell out the full $700 for the Cobb at this time.

    ATP says you can tune a bunch of car, but they must be accessport equipped:

    "Unlimited number of AccessPORT equipped vehicles can be tuned"
    you missed my point. it's not cobb hardware/software. it's an OBD-II flashing piece of equipment. you would essentially get the same flash results as a pro-tuned cobb accessport. you wouldn't have the handy datalogger, map switcher, etc though.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bryce Click here to enlarge
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    you missed my point. it's not cobb hardware/software. it's an OBD-II flashing piece of equipment. you would essentially get the same flash results as a pro-tuned cobb accessport. you wouldn't have the handy datalogger, map switcher, etc though.

    I see what you are getting at now.

  15. #15
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bryce Click here to enlarge
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    you missed my point. it's not cobb hardware/software. it's an OBD-II flashing piece of equipment. you would essentially get the same flash results as a pro-tuned cobb accessport. you wouldn't have the handy datalogger, map switcher, etc though.
    Those flashes are not very developed and wont be able to get good results outside of a "stage 1" type car. Theres a reason Shiv ripped off Cobbs MAF fix for his flash by reading their ROM. Cobb honestly pioneered this platform in terms of Flash tuning.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Keep in mind he is limited in his ability to respond to you.
    I understood that when I asked the questions that why I was trying to be as simple as I could, and given there wasn't an answer from him maybe others can contribute. Can ATR do everything other flash company's can do? or is there some secrets there Cobb hasn't unlocked to the public that the tuners still have access to.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brusk Click here to enlarge
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    I understood that when I asked the questions that why I was trying to be as simple as I could, and given there wasn't an answer from him maybe others can contribute. Can ATR do everything other flash company's can do? or is there some secrets there Cobb hasn't unlocked to the public that the tuners still have access to.
    In short, no. ATP, which the tuners use, has more features.

    To cut you off at the pass, no, I do not know what those features are Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brusk Click here to enlarge
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    I understood that when I asked the questions that why I was trying to be as simple as I could, and given there wasn't an answer from him maybe others can contribute. Can ATR do everything other flash company's can do? or is there some secrets there Cobb hasn't unlocked to the public that the tuners still have access to.
    From what i understand ATP/ATR have access to the exact same tables...

    I'm sure Cobb has access to many, many, more tables, but they may not fully understand what the tables are there for, its all part of the reverse engineering process. As time goes on, and as they unlock more tables within the DME and understand its logic, they can modify or create custom code to get their desired results.

    As far as which flashes have the most access, according to Shiv - his PROcedeflash (i use the term "His" lightly since he outsources the flash) has access to tables that others do not Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    Those flashes are not very developed and wont be able to get good results outside of a "stage 1" type car. Theres a reason Shiv ripped off Cobbs MAF fix for his flash by reading their ROM. Cobb honestly pioneered this platform in terms of Flash tuning.
    so you know the shop i'm talking about? and their experience tuning n54's? tell me again about how under developed they are....

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    Eurocharged, GIAC, Evolve, Dinan, Secret Services all had flashes out before Cobb released their stage 1 flash in 2010-11

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bryce Click here to enlarge
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    so you know the shop i'm talking about? and their experience tuning n54's? tell me again about how under developed they are....
    Hooking up a ROM reader and modifying AFR targets, timing tables, and load targets(until they hit the barrier) can be done by basic flashers and = stage 1 tune levels. Its the hurdles that people ran into trying to run significant amounts of boost that created the issues aka MAF fix. Theres also a reason none of those flash tunes evolved passed a certain point.... They all rely on relatively low boost levels, but high timing. Basically the flash equivalent of a JB4.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    Hooking up a ROM reader and modifying AFR targets, timing tables, and load targets(until they hit the barrier) can be done by basic flashers and = stage 1 tune levels. Its the hurdles that people ran into trying to run significant amounts of boost that created the issues aka MAF fix. Theres also a reason none of those flash tunes evolved passed a certain point.... They all rely on relatively low boost levels, but high timing. Basically the flash equivalent of a JB4.
    so again, you're so familiar with the shops in Houston that i'm talking about, that you are confident that Cobb still pioneered flash tuning on the n54?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bryce Click here to enlarge
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    so again, you're so familiar with the shops in Houston that i'm talking about, that you are confident that Cobb still pioneered flash tuning on the n54?
    How far is Austin from Houston? Click here to enlarge

    Can you show me some logs of "houston" tuned cars hitting over 18psi without CEL's?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    How far is Austin from Houston? Click here to enlarge

    Can you show me some logs of "houston" tuned cars hitting over 18psi without CEL's?
    i don't personally have any logs, no. i'm sure the shop could furnish them to me. FYI the shop i'm talking about is also a cobb pro-tuner. they have the same capabilities to tune n54's with their own equipment/knowledge/experience as they do with ATR. they also developed flashes for other "flash tuners" back in the day. their dyno tuning facility is the widest used one in tx.

    regardless, it doesn't matter that much to me what you think. i'm sure you love your accessport and protune, and you should. it's a great means to power. my point in this thread was that an accessport and pro-tune aren't the only way you can get a custom, dyno tuned flash specific to your hardware mods and vehicle. cheers.

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    Cobb and others read the DME in similar ways. But Cobb is more focused on end user convenience. On other platforms many shops will elect to read/write the ECU themselves instead of using the Cobb interface for higher HP apps.

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