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  1. #1
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    Dry sump oil system kit with supercharger on the E92/E90 M3 S65 V8, who has done it?

    Has anybody done this? The more time goes on the more I am convinced this is going to be necessary especially for the guys who track. For the big boost motors builds as well.

    It isn't talked about all that much but it really should be. Even stock cars are spinning bearings. The oiling system is simply a weak point on this motor and I blame BMW for being cheap.

    So, how difficult will it be do to do a dry sump system with a supercharger? I mean the dry sump needs to be run off the motor from what I understand.

    Turner Motorsport has their kit which is $7k: http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-14...-sump-kit.aspx

    Click here to enlarge

    VAC has one as well I believe.

    Not a cheap upgrade by any means. I'll have upgraded oil pumps but I don't know if that is enough especially if I want to take my setup to the max which obviously I do.

    Anybody done this? @Mike@VAC

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    I saw on FB VAC just shipped another one of these a day or so ago.. It has me thinking..

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    It's really meant for people who track a good amount. I mean circuit track, not necessarily 1/4 mile. It's needed for the long periods of high g force turns mostly as I read somewhere. If you don't track much or not intending to. You really don't need that, unless you really want it lol.
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    i would ask VAC they deff would know best honestly.
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    It's really meant for people who track a good amount. I mean circuit track, not necessarily 1/4 mile. It's needed for the long periods of high g force turns mostly as I read somewhere. If you don't track much or not intending to. You really don't need that, unless you really want it lol.
    With some cars having issues and others not, it seems to be something to consider for more than just track cars

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    It's really meant for people who track a good amount. I mean circuit track, not necessarily 1/4 mile. It's needed for the long periods of high g force turns mostly as I read somewhere. If you don't track much or not intending to. You really don't need that, unless you really want it lol.
    With some cars having issues and others not, it seems to be something to consider for more than just track cars

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    One has to start thinking about the balance of the crankshaft when you start adding a second strain on the front of the crankshaft. You have the supercharger pulley on which the motor was not balanced for and now you adding a second item to drive.
    On my E36 M3 the dry sump system created harmonic problems on the crank which caused it to whip at high rpm eventually breaking the crank.
    I think its not as simple as just adding it on, possibly you will have to balance the crank to take the changes into account.

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    Doesn't make sense to me unless the car is being raced. There are guys with tens of thousands of track miles with no issues - SC and naturally aspirated.

    If I had the motor out already, I might consider it.

    Right now leaning towards bigger oil cooler for track - that makes more sense to me and a fraction of the price.

    Also - I have not seen anything *conclusively* establishing any shortcomings in the S65 oiling. I've heard a lot of speculation about bearings, etc...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    One has to start thinking about the balance of the crankshaft when you start adding a second strain on the front of the crankshaft. You have the supercharger pulley on which the motor was not balanced for and now you adding a second item to drive.
    On my E36 M3 the dry sump system created harmonic problems on the crank which caused it to whip at high rpm eventually breaking the crank.
    I think its not as simple as just adding it on, possibly you will have to balance the crank to take the changes into account.
    Great info George. Thanks!

  10. #10
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    One has to start thinking about the balance of the crankshaft when you start adding a second strain on the front of the crankshaft. You have the supercharger pulley on which the motor was not balanced for and now you adding a second item to drive.
    On my E36 M3 the dry sump system created harmonic problems on the crank which caused it to whip at high rpm eventually breaking the crank.
    I think its not as simple as just adding it on, possibly you will have to balance the crank to take the changes into account.
    Thank you George.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't make sense to me unless the car is being raced. There are guys with tens of thousands of track miles with no issues - SC and naturally aspirated.

    If I had the motor out already, I might consider it.

    Right now leaning towards bigger oil cooler for track - that makes more sense to me and a fraction of the price.

    Also - I have not seen anything *conclusively* establishing any shortcomings in the S65 oiling. I've heard a lot of speculation about bearings, etc...
    I know the majority of motors don't have issues but the majority of S54's didn't either... they still had a problem though.

    Most cars won't be run hard. However, SC'd and naturally aspirated cars have all failed due to oil shortcomings. I'm definitely concerned about it especially in a high boost application.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't make sense to me unless the car is being raced. There are guys with tens of thousands of track miles with no issues - SC and naturally aspirated.

    If I had the motor out already, I might consider it.

    Right now leaning towards bigger oil cooler for track - that makes more sense to me and a fraction of the price.

    Also - I have not seen anything *conclusively* establishing any shortcomings in the S65 oiling. I've heard a lot of speculation about bearings, etc...
    Exactly. Don't give it too much G's and it will be fine. Even G's have a little to do with failure in these engines. M3 GT4 which is meant for G's, uses the stock wet sump lubrication.

    BTW your Ferrari has a great feature for this specific problem. Corner it hard and you will see that the oil pressure drops badly. You think to yourself that it's gonna blow but no need to worry because before oil pump and engine, the water pump would let go. It's a good sign for you to know where the limit is.
    Ever wondered why your oil pressure gauge is in the middle? It's there to save water pumps for you. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Exactly. Don't give it too much G's and it will be fine. Even G's have a little to do with failure in these engines. M3 GT4 which is meant for G's, uses the stock wet sump lubrication.

    BTW your Ferrari has a great feature for this specific problem. Corner it hard and you will see that the oil pressure drops badly. You think to yourself that it's gonna blow but no need to worry because before oil pump and engine, the water pump would let go. It's a good sign for you to know where the limit is.
    Ever wondered why your oil pressure gauge is in the middle? It's there to save water pumps for you. Click here to enlarge
    Indeed! I wish I had the nice, euro dry-sump oil system in my 308. Perhaps a winter project in the next ehhh...5 years? ; ) I stayed off the high revs in my high-g turns (not many) in it in Chicago. It corners like a kart with the coilovers it has on it. : ) It will see some track time, but no maximum attack - just for pure fun. The local track is at 1200 ft and it was tuned at 1300, so it should be ready to rock. I beat on it hard in Chicago and it ran cool and perfect temps across the board. No leaks. Engine was rebuilt 1k miles ago by a very well known guy in AZ. Very happy so far. : ) Should have it back from IND with paint issues resolved and other minor details in 2 weeks. But a real 2 weeks, not a Sticky "2 weeks".

    : O
    ; )

    Oil pressure is also the first gauge closest to me in the M3 and I have it flash red if it goes too low. Also shows yellow when very high upon cold start.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I know the majority of motors don't have issues but the majority of S54's didn't either... they still had a problem though.

    Most cars won't be run hard. However, SC'd and naturally aspirated cars have all failed due to oil shortcomings. I'm definitely concerned about it especially in a high boost application.
    It can never hurt to over-engineer when you are pushing the limits. Well, it can hurt the ole' pocket book I suppose...

    But really it is more about lateral G's most of the time than power in terms of wet vs. dry - at least in my experience.

    Oil shortcomings - probably, but that is a broad topic. Is it bearing material? tuning? fuel? tolerances? bad run of parts? I mean you are going with like a totally custom setup in your motor including bearings right? I assume that is all the result of whatever info is available regarding the failures that exist today. Is there any suggestion that starvation is really one of the problems?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    I mean you are going with like a totally custom setup in your motor including bearings right? I assume that is all the result of whatever info is available regarding the failures that exist today. Is there any suggestion that starvation is really one of the problems?
    Yes, I will have custom bearings as well.

    Take a look at this: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...MW-do-a-recall

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, I will have custom bearings as well.

    Take a look at this: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...MW-do-a-recall
    I've seen that. I'm not really convinced of the cause of the issue although the information is interesting. I can tell you that if my motor has a defect, I will likely blow it. I mean I'm planning to keep it and put tons of track and street miles on it so...

    But there are tons of guys crushing their cars at the track every week without problems.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    But there are tons of guys crushing their cars at the track every week without problems.
    Disassembled motors of some of those guys show significant wear though.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Disassembled motors of some of those guys show significant wear though.
    Eh - they show wear...I agree. But track miles are hard on a car and this is essentially a race V8. What is reasonable in terms of hard miles? I don't know - 120k+ and I would be very happy I would say.

    Also - it wouldn't surprise me if some of the wear is from things as simple as people running $#@!ty tunes, crappy gas, or poor oil-warming-before-hard-driving habits.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Also - it wouldn't surprise me if some of the wear is from things as simple as people running $#@!ty tunes, crappy gas, or poor oil-warming-before-hard-driving habits.
    It's possible. I'm just going by what my tuners told me as he has seen more of these motors than any of us and also has customers who track hard.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Indeed! I wish I had the nice, euro dry-sump oil system in my 308. Perhaps a winter project in the next ehhh...5 years? ; ) I stayed off the high revs in my high-g turns (not many) in it in Chicago. It corners like a kart with the coilovers it has on it. : ) It will see some track time, but no maximum attack - just for pure fun. The local track is at 1200 ft and it was tuned at 1300, so it should be ready to rock. I beat on it hard in Chicago and it ran cool and perfect temps across the board. No leaks. Engine was rebuilt 1k miles ago by a very well known guy in AZ. Very happy so far. : ) Should have it back from IND with paint issues resolved and other minor details in 2 weeks. But a real 2 weeks, not a Sticky "2 weeks".
    I think everyone should have an old Italian car at some point. They are full of issues and so incomplete that make an expert after you are done with it and even at that point that you think it's all good, it surprises you with a new problem. Very manly cars. Click here to enlarge But they have something so charming in them that even makes their break-downs fun.
    Yours in another level. Nothing is like driving a ~ 1 tonne car (Well if it actually drives Click here to enlarge ) and darting in the nose into corners like a go-kart.

    Euro dry-sump is a great idea. Even though most mechanics tell you working on Tipo V8's are hard, it's easy actually IF you pull the engine out. I like your long term plan. Click here to enlarge No rush is the way to go.

    The bold part is just awesome. You don't hear people saying "My car is tuned for X ft" anymore. Someday if you wanted to tune the carburetors yourself, use the "glass of water" technique. The easiest/fastest way to tune multi webbers.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Singletrack
    Oil pressure is also the first gauge closest to me in the M3 and I have it flash red if it goes too low. Also shows yellow when very high upon cold start.
    Let me guess, you had some pretty unreliable your car in your life that would burn oil or spit it out of the engine? Click here to enlarge

  21. #21
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    I think everyone should have an old Italian car at some point. They are full of issues and so incomplete that make an expert after you are done with it and even at that point that you think it's all good, it surprises you with a new problem. Very manly cars. Click here to enlarge But they have something so charming in them that even makes their break-downs fun.
    Yours in another level. Nothing is like driving a ~ 1 tonne car (Well if it actually drives Click here to enlarge ) and darting in the nose into corners like a go-kart.
    Haha! Yah, I need projects, so this is going to one of them. I was definitely careful in the turns - no one wants to be the douche that wrecks his Ferrari on the first test drive. I was fully prepared to blow the motor though, but full revs was no issue.

    Euro dry-sump is a great idea. Even though most mechanics tell you working on Tipo V8's are hard, it's easy actually IF you pull the engine out. I like your long term plan. Click here to enlarge No rush is the way to go.
    Yah - ultimate plan is for lift and engine lift in garage, so should be no issue. I can leave it and come back to it if it is beating me up. But I think I should get 20-30k out of this before I need to consider pulling the motor. I want to drive it.

    The bold part is just awesome. You don't hear people saying "My car is tuned for X ft" anymore. Someday if you wanted to tune the carburetors yourself, use the "glass of water" technique. The easiest/fastest way to tune multi webbers.
    Haha! Yah! Had to have the carbs, did not even consider the GTSi. Do not know glass of water technique (will look up thanks), but am looking to tune carbs one day...

    Let me guess, you had some pretty unreliable your car in your life that would burn oil or spit it out of the engine? Click here to enlarge
    Turbo cars with boost issues actually. : ) But, with this car seeing increased track duty, all the road debris in Pittsburgh, and the oil cooler right in the strike-zone, I figured it was a good idea. : )

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    Great thread!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's possible. I'm just going by what my tuners told me as he has seen more of these motors than any of us and also has customers who track hard.
    Yah I agree. It is all really he-said, she-saw, they did, etc. Hard to make scientific conclusions to my satisfaction. With your goal of being the fastest, it is certainly a good idea. Are you only doing 1/4, vbox, or is the monster going to see a traditional track too? That thing is going to be a handful.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Yah I agree. It is all really he-said, she-saw, they did, etc. Hard to make scientific conclusions to my satisfaction. With your goal of being the fastest, it is certainly a good idea. Are you only doing 1/4, vbox, or is the monster going to see a traditional track too? That thing is going to be a handful.
    I will only track it if the oil system is upgraded to my satisfaction. Let's say I'm right and there is an oil issue, well, I'd prefer not to find out on the track. Better safe than sorry.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I will only track it if the oil system is upgraded to my satisfaction. Let's say I'm right and there is an oil issue, well, I'd prefer not to find out on the track. Better safe than sorry.
    Yah - dropping oil mid-turn in a max-speed, sweeper is a good way to turn yourself into pink mist. Poof.

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