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Thread: E85, Overrated?

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    E85, Overrated?

    Last weekend @ gingerman raceway, I tested out the E85/93 octane blends that I've recently been using. I started out my first session with a 40/60 blend. After about 3 laps I had to pit in because of how bad power was cutting out in the straights. I searched for codes, and got: 29E0, and 2AAF, fuel mixture control, and fuel pump plausibility. I decided to dilute my ethanol percentage, as my LPFP was clearly maxed out. I poured in 4.5 gallons of 100 octane unleaded, to about 5-6 gallons of the remaining 40/60. The result was night and day! No codes, and a big increase in power, my next session. I also ran my fastest lap of the day in this session.

    By the last two sessions of the day, My gas tank was nearly empty, and since I brought along a 5 gallon jug of E85, I mixed up a full tank of E30 (30/70). No codes, but again, I noticed a power drop from 100 octane, and my lap times were on average 2-3 seconds slower.

    Conclusion: I will still continue to use E30 as it helps neutralize the exhaust smell, since I am not running the stock cast back with my kittyless dps. However, I am now convinced that the actual octane level of E85 is actually
    94-96 octane, as some have been recently suggesting:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85#Octane_and_perfomance

    "E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests."

    If this is true, then E30/E40 mixtures are in fact, barely 94 octane. whereas if you mix in 4-5 gallons of pure race gas, you end up with like 95-96 octane, which the N54 loves. It's definitely a steep cost, at $8/gallon, but from now on, I'll be filling up my 5 gallon jug with race gas, in case they run out of the good stuff, at the track. 100% E85, with upgraded fuel pumps, and injectors, seem to produce similar ET's to 100-110 octane gas, for top fuel dragsters. However, since we don't have good upgraded aftermarket pumps, and injectors, it seems that we won't be able to truly see the benefits of this fuel. Again, these are just my observations/opinions. As E85 is really popular in the N54 community right now, please don't flame me.
    Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 09-08-2012 at 03:11 PM.

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    E85 injected directly into the combustion chamber has a much higher octane than the calculated one. 100% E85 has about 160 octane in DI
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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    Stock Turbo EVO (built motor) vs 2 s/c E92 M3s


    So while E85 is the "poor man's race gas", it's def. a much better buy when compared to unleaded 100 octane
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Last weekend @ gingerman raceway, I tested out the E85/93 octane blends that I've recently been using. I started out my first session with a 40/60 blend. After about 3 laps I had to pit in because of how bad power was cutting out in the straights. I searched for codes, and got: 29E0, and 2AAF, fuel mixture control, and fuel pump plausibility. I decided to dilute my ethanol percentage, as my LPFP was clearly maxed out. I poured in 4.5 gallons of 100 octane unleaded, to about 5-6 gallons of the remaining 40/60. The result was night and day! No codes, and a big increase in power, my next session. I also ran my fastest lap of the day in this session.

    By the last two sessions of the day, My gas tank was nearly empty, and since I brought along a 5 gallon jug of E85, I mixed up a full tank of E30 (30/70). No codes, but again, I noticed a power drop from 100 octane, and my lap times were on average 2-3 seconds slower.

    Conclusion: I will still continue to use E30 as it helps neutralize the exhaust smell, since I am not running the stock cast back with my kittyless dps. However, I am now convinced that the actual octane level of E85 is actually
    94-96 octane, as some have been recently suggesting:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85#Octane_and_perfomance

    "E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests."

    If this is true, then E30/E40 mixtures are in fact, barely 94 octane. whereas if you mix in 4-5 gallons of pure race gas, you end up with like 95-96 octane, which the N54 loves. It's definitely a steep cost, at $8/gallon, but from now on, I'll be filling up my 5 gallon jug with race gas, in case they run out of the good stuff, at the track. 100% E85, with upgraded fuel pumps, and injectors, seem to produce similar ET's to 100-110 octane gas, for top fuel dragsters. However, since we don't have good upgraded aftermarket pumps, and injectors, it seems that we won't be able to truly see the benefits of this fuel. Again, these are just my observations/opinions. As E85 is really popular in the N54 community right now, please don't flame me.
    If i remember correctly, you're the guy that thinks the JB+ is gods gift to tuning, so given your set-up and the fact that you're not datalogging anything;just making assumptions means your whole post is just a waste of time.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    If i remember correctly, you're the guy that thinks the JB+ is gods gift to tuning, so given your set-up and the fact that you're not datalogging anything;just making assumptions means your whole post is just a waste of time.
    Well first of all JB+ is not "god's gift to tuning", because JB+ is not a tune. Now having dispelled that gaff, what tune do you know of besides GIAC, that is actually useable at a proper race course? At gingerman, I met a guy there with a procede 135I, who couldn't use the tune at the track. He had it in a bag, and brought it with him. He said he had been trying to contact vishnu, but with no responses.

    Now, if you can please keep the post on topic, and present evidence of the actual octane value of E85, then we can all have a rational discussion. Attempting to change the topic, to draw attention to yourself, is called: Trollin'

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    E85 injected directly into the combustion chamber has a much higher octane than the calculated one. 100% E85 has about 160 octane in DI
    Source?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    If i remember correctly, you're the guy that thinks the JB+ is gods gift to tuning, so given your set-up and the fact that you're not datalogging anything;just making assumptions means your whole post is just a waste of time.
    Oh, and what the hell do you need logs for? I'm not running a dyno queen here. Who cares what your dyno log said? I went to the track, ran the wonder juice (E85), and ran 1.58-2.00 mins with codes. I then diluted the ethanol back to barely above E10, added proper race gas, and ran 1.53-1.57 all day. Playing with toys, and looking at graphs, isn't evidence. Real world timed events is.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Oh, and what the hell do you need logs for? I'm not running a dyno queen here. Who cares what your dyno log said? I went to the track, ran the wonder juice (E85), and ran 1.58-2.00 mins with codes. I then diluted the ethanol back to barely above E10, with proper race gas, and ran 1.53-1.57 all day. Playing with toys, and looking at graphs, isn't evidence. Real world timed events is.
    To each their own, I suppose.

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    Well if you are running jb+ no wonder you got mixture codes... Get a proper tune like cobb that supports E85 and you will see why people are loving it.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    To each their own, I suppose.
    The track is the ultimate test for any setup. I ran E40 on the streets, and did several wide open runs, with it, thought I was faster, and threw no codes. But at the track, once you add sustained stress to your setup, you will see the actual results. In this case, the car did not like that ethanol level, and wasn't faster than 93 octane gas. If you wanna shoot the messenger, go ahead.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Oh, and what the hell do you need logs for? I'm not running a dyno queen here. Who cares what your dyno log said? I went to the track, ran the wonder juice (E85), and ran 1.58-2.00 mins with codes. I then diluted the ethanol back to barely above E10, added proper race gas, and ran 1.53-1.57 all day. Playing with toys, and looking at graphs, isn't evidence. Real world timed events is.
    You're stoopid. It's absolutely no surprise that you got mixture codes when you weren't using a real tune (whether it's the JB4, PRocede or COBB). If you were using E85 on the GIAC tune, you'd be getting mixtures codes since their tune doesn't support E85 use.


    Get a COBB AP & IMMEDIATELY after that, you should learn how to tune an N54 before you consider using ATR to adjust boost/timing/fueling
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Well first of all JB+ is not "god's gift to tuning", because JB+ is not a tune. Now having dispelled that gaff, what tune do you know of besides GIAC, that is actually useable at a proper race course? At gingerman, I met a guy there with a procede 135I, who couldn't use the tune at the track. He had it in a bag, and brought it with him. He said he had been trying to contact vishnu, but with no responses.

    Now, if you can please keep the post on topic, and present evidence of the actual octane value of E85, then we can all have a rational discussion. Attempting to change the topic, to draw attention to yourself, is called: Trollin'
    Not sure how im supposedly drawing attentiont to myself, but what i said is the truth whether you want to accept it or not. You're blaming the issues you experienced on ethanol, yet you have no factual data to back it up, ie logs. You want to tell us your emotions while you're at it?

    Plenty of people have been happy with Cobb on the race course after their most recent maps fixed boost oscillations for s2+ or s1+ cars. If you really want any help, take some logs and post them up so we can actually see what is occuring. Even if you dont like Cobb, GIAC users appears to be extremely happy.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Because E85 direct injected into the chamber is VERY different from port injected meth that gets splattered all over the intake piping Here's an article on direct injected ethanol (methanol too) that may surprise many of you...effective octane of E85 once direct injected raises to 160 points for ethanol and 180 octane points for methanol No wonder E85 works so well on this car and changes are pretty dramatic from pump gas

    http://web.mit.edu/mitei/lfee/progra...2008-01-rp.pdf

    Think I'll just try some methanol in the tank with a 30% mix for fun

    Excerpt from the intro:







    Originally Posted by document from above link


    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Ethanol is receiving great interest as an alternative fuel. Methanol is another alcohol fuel
    that could serve as a replacement for gasoline. Although it is currently receiving much
    less attention, it has the potential to play an important role. Like ethanol, methanol also
    has the advantage of being a liquid fuel and it can be produced from gasification of a
    variety of feedstocks using well established thermal chemical technology. These
    feedstocks include coal, natural gas, biomass and various types of waste. This paper
    discusses the high effective octane number and efficiency advantages of methanol and
    ethanol when used in direct injection engines. Octane number represents the resistance of
    a spark ignition engine to knock (unwanted detonation which can damage the engine).
    The high intrinsic octane numbers of ethanol and methanol are well known. However, a
    much greater effective octane number can be effectively realized through the knock
    resistance provided by the high level of vaporization cooling that occurs when methanol
    or ethanol is directly injected into the engine cylinders. A computational model is used in
    this paper to determine the knock resistance and effective octane number of these alcohol
    fuels when they are directly injected. The model indicates that the effective octane
    numbers are around 160 for ethanol and 180 for methanol. The high compression ratio,
    high degree of turbocharging and aggressive engine downsizing enabled by the high
    effective octane number of methanol could provide an efficiency gain of 30 –35% (for
    combined city-highway driving) relative to conventional port fueled gasoline engines. An
    additional gain of around 10% can be obtained by using reforming of methanol to enable
    ultra lean operation at low loads. The combination of these gains could thus potentially
    provide an efficiency gain of 40–45% for direct injection methanol engines. This
    efficiency gain is significantly greater than the typical 25–30% gain of turbocharged
    diesel engines.













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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    Well if you are running jb+ no wonder you got mixture codes... Get a proper tune like cobb that supports E85 and you will see why people are loving it.
    Mixture codes, and LPFP failure codes. Again Cobb is a joke at the track. There is a reason why Mr.5 ran GIAC at the track, when he owned the vehicle. back then there were a slew of gimmicks available for the N54. It's about which tune can take punishment. To run at the track you need a real tested reflash like Dinan, or GIAC. Not simply re-writing maps through the OBD.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    The track is the ultimate test for any setup. I ran E40 on the streets, and did several wide open runs, with it, thought I was faster, and threw no codes. But at the track, once you add sustained stress to your setup, you will see the actual results. In this case, the car did not like that ethanol level, and wasn't faster than 93 octane gas. If you wanna shoot the messenger, go ahead.
    Of course the car didn't like the ethanol level. The factory calibration is not designed to run higher than E10. If you're throwing fuel mixture codes, it's because you're running outside of the computer's ability to adapt, and of course you'll run slower.

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    Hate to add to the "trolling" but you dont even have a tune that officially supports E85 and also you have not datalogged...Then your wondering why your throwing codes or why its not as good as people are saying...

    Let me put it this way...I dont know a single other person running E85 blend on a JB+....There is NO support...

    Did you expect everything to work well? Or even for the car to be able to safely run more power with no other changes?
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    Wow, why the $#@! are we even trying to help you? Why are you posting questions if your just going to attack anyone who responds to you? Your working out to be quite the douchebag. Your statements have just convinved me that you are a track whore who apparently doesnt understand this platform at all, which is really odd Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rooringhusky Click here to enlarge
    Hate to add to the "trolling" but you dont even have a tune that officially supports E85 and also you have not datalogged...Then your wondering why your throwing codes or why its not as good as people are saying...

    Let me put it this way...I dont know a single other person running E85 blend on a JB+....There is NO support...

    Did you expect everything to work well? Or even for the car to be able to safely run more power with no other changes?
    LOL, this turkeyfucker guy is a prime example of why some people shouldnt touch their cars. A splash of E85 on a JB+ at 100% would probably clean timing issues up greatly, but thats about it.

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    Amen to that
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Again Cobb is a joke at the track. It's about which tune can take punishment. To run at the track you need a real tested reflash like Dinan, or GIAC. Not simply re-writing maps through the OBD.
    And with Cobb ATR, you can test/tune your own vehicle specifically for the abusive conditions on a racetrack, or pay someone else to do so.

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    +1 really confused whats going on here...makes no sense to me
    PERFORMANCE: Cobb AP \ JB4 \ DCI \ AR Downpipes \ CX FMIC \ ER Chargepipe \ Synapse BOV \ KW V2 \ Muffler Delete \ CDV \ ZHP Shifter \ Cyba Scoops
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    You're stoopid. It's absolutely no surprise that you got mixture codes when you weren't using a real tune (whether it's the JB4, PRocede or COBB). If you were using E85 on the GIAC tune, you'd be getting mixtures codes since their tune doesn't support E85 use.
    And you know this from all those qualifying laps you ran at willow springs? Click here to enlarge COBB is rubbish. The only tunes I would ever consider, in the future is GIAC or Dinan.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Get a COBB AP & IMMEDIATELY after that, you should learn how to tune an N54 before you consider using ATR to adjust boost/timing/fueling
    COBB is what happens when subaru guys start playing with BMWs. Will COBB insure my engine, when ATR start's D**king with it?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Mixture codes, and LPFP failure codes. Again Cobb is a joke at the track. There is a reason why Mr.5 ran GIAC at the track, when he owned the vehicle. back then there were a slew of gimmicks available for the N54. It's about which tune can take punishment. To run at the track you need a real tested reflash like Dinan, or GIAC. Not simply re-writing maps through the OBD.
    Sorry but you got no clue...
    i run cobb at the track with 0 problems on very high boost and upgraded turbos so please dont assume you know it all or that everybody has issues...
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    Of course the car didn't like the ethanol level. The factory calibration is not designed to run higher than E10. If you're throwing fuel mixture codes, it's because you're running outside of the computer's ability to adapt, and of course you'll run slower.
    and how come it won't throw these codes on the street? The answer is the same reason you don't get overboost codes with your cobb toy, while street racing.

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    Wait, is this the same guy who said something about pistons being cast iron because there's no way aluminum was strong enough to handle combustion pressure?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    COBB is what happens when subaru guys start playing with BMWs. Will COBB insure my engine, when ATR start's D**king with it?
    COBB is what happens when guys who actually build & tune purpose built time attack cars (WRX STIs, EVOs & GTRs) start tuning BMWs. I don't track my car, but I'm amazed at how ignorant you really are to the aftermarket & tuning of the N54 engine.
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