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Thread: Quest for 500WHP - Evo IX 4G63 or 335i N54?

              
   
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    Cool Quest for 500WHP - Evo IX 4G63 or 335i N54?

    What's up guys, my name is Alex, most of you have seen me posting here as of late. Came over from the "other" forum not too long ago, glad I made the switch!

    I'm looking at picking up a new car. Currently I have a 6AT N54 with no oil cooler. My goal on the next vehicle is 500whp. I'm looking at either an Evo IX, or another 335 (6MT N54). Not really sure which one to go with. Hoping you guys could help me with my decision. There are pros and cons to each car.

    Pros/Cons
    -I've had an N54 for almost 4 years already, ready for something new
    -N54 has a fairly stout motor, where as the 4G63 in the Evo may not hold that 500whp for long
    -Evo is AWD, which is a HUGE plus in my book
    -N54 will have CPO warranty, Evo won't have any
    -N54 has a nicer interior than the Evo
    -N54 will need an LSD to put down the power, VERY expensive
    -I know a lot of BMW techs, installs will be very cheap for the N54
    -Don't know anyone for cheap installs on the Evo

    I priced out a list of mods I would need for each car to attain my 500whp goal. I didn't add the LSD into the list for the E90 because it isn't absolutely necessary.

    E90 - $6870 w/o installation
    -Cobb ($650 Used)
    -Cobb Remote Tune by Jake@PTF ($200)
    -RB Turbos ($3500)
    -CX Intercooler ($350)
    -Charge Pipe /w BoV and meth bungs ($350 Used)
    -Downpipes ($220)
    -Intake ($100)
    -Cluth ($500)
    -HSF4 Meth Kit ($1000)

    Evo- $5355 w/o installation
    -FP Red or EF3 Turbo ($1500 Used)
    -FIC 1450cc Injectors ($300 Used)
    -Walbro 255 Fuel Pump ($75 Used)
    -O2 Dump ($200)
    -Downpipe ($150 Used)
    -Test Pipe ($50)
    -Camshafts (GSC S2 or Kelford 272) ($450 Used)
    -Curt Brown Ported Exhaust Manifold ($175)
    -Tial Sport Q BoV ($200 Used)
    -Intercooler ($450 Used)
    -Lower Intercooler Piping ($150 Used)
    -Curt Brown Ported Intake Manifold ($375)
    -Full Blown 70mm Throttle Body ($270)
    -Grim Speed Boost Controller ($100 Used)
    -Omni Power 4 Bar MAP Sensor ($110)
    -STM 4'' Speed Density Intake with 3-4'' reducer ($150)
    -Competetion Stage 2 Clutch ($450)
    -Remote Tune by Tom@TSCOMP($200)

    What do you guys think? I highly value the opinion of the members on this forum. If I posted this on the other forum, everyone would say N54 just because they're all fanboys for life. I know I will get an educated and less biased opinion here. Thanks in advance!
    Daily: 2007 Montego Blue E92 335i - Stock
    Weekend: 2008 Graffiti CBR 600RR - Two Brothers | CBR Heaven | Shogun | Motovation | Power Commander | Honda Racing


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    Any goals, ie. Street/track/drag car?

    Tracking a N54 tends to be a very limited experience, at least for me.

    There tends to be a few bargain evos where they've been modded decently, not beat on much and put up for sale not much over stock price. Might be able to save you some money unless you're set on doing it all yourself.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by scott_uw Click here to enlarge
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    Any goals, ie. Street/track/drag car?

    Tracking a N54 tends to be a very limited experience, at least for me.

    There tends to be a few bargain evos where they've been modded decently, not beat on much and put up for sale not much over stock price. Might be able to save you some money unless you're set on doing it all yourself.
    Good question, I should have addressed that. It's going to be a daily driver, but I would like to autocross it at times. Maybe a track day or two, but nothing serious. I'm not looking to beat the car hard for a whole day and break a bunch of things. Not a big fan of drag racing because you basically asking to break stuff, but I'm sure I'd hit the strip a few times. To sum it up, it's going to be a DD but I would like the ability to do everything in it.

    I guess another con of the N54 is also how bad the cooling system is.

    Also, I'm big on reliability. I would think the N54 would be more reliable, but not too sure. I don't have any experience with the 4G63.
    Daily: 2007 Montego Blue E92 335i - Stock
    Weekend: 2008 Graffiti CBR 600RR - Two Brothers | CBR Heaven | Shogun | Motovation | Power Commander | Honda Racing


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    Scrap the RBs for the Vargas Stage 2/Stage 3 TT upgrade. If that project pans out (which it's looking real good as of right now), you might be able to get 500 WHP on pump gas (mid-500 WHP w/ meth or an E85 tune)
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    420 WHP on 93 Octane | 460 WHP on E85
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


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    As a former Evo owner, I can safely say that the Evo is the better platform as of now to make that kind of power reliably, however if you want that motor to last, then you better budget on building the bottom end of the 4g63 if you plan on running that FP Red on high boost which is where it shines. I was making 404awhp/414awtq on the stock turbo and e85 and wanted to eventually upgrade to the FP Red or Black, but with the insane amount of torque it generates at low rpms, the rods will be the first thing to go if you like to punch it at low rpms. Don't get me wrong, you can still make a lot of power on the stock block, but it is a ticking time bomb if you drive it like you stole it (and trust me, you will lol).

    If you can hold out on the Vargas turbos, I'd say to wait it out for that and see what comes up with that turbo upgrade. But if I had to choose right now, I would go with the Evo and set some money aside on building the bottom end so you will know it can take the punishment.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Scrap the RBs for the Vargas Stage 2/Stage 3 TT upgrade. If that project pans out (which it's looking real good as of right now), you might be able to get 500 WHP on pump gas (mid-500 WHP w/ meth or an E85 tune)
    Vargas is also definitely an option. Hoping that goes over well and we have something new for the market. Hopefully cheaper than RB too.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 Click here to enlarge
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    As a former Evo owner, I can safely say that the Evo is the better platform as of now to make that kind of power reliably, however if you want that motor to last, then you better budget on building the bottom end of the 4g63 if you plan on running that FP Red on high boost which is where it shines. I was making 404awhp/414awtq on the stock turbo and e85 and wanted to eventually upgrade to the FP Red or Black, but with the insane amount of torque it generates at low rpms, the rods will be the first thing to go if you like to punch it at low rpms. Don't get me wrong, you can still make a lot of power on the stock block, but it is a ticking time bomb if you drive it like you stole it (and trust me, you will lol).

    If you can hold out on the Vargas turbos, I'd say to wait it out for that and see what comes up with that turbo upgrade. But if I had to choose right now, I would go with the Evo and set some money aside on building the bottom end so you will know it can take the punishment.
    I've read conflicting reports on if the rods will hold with the power I'm looking for. What's the deal with that? Can I hold the power without issue, or is it bound to blow up? I'd be happy pushing about 450whp if I can stick with just pump gas (93) and wouldn't have to worry about the motor as much.

    Just remembered another con to the Evo is the gas mileage will be horrible for DDing.
    Daily: 2007 Montego Blue E92 335i - Stock
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    my buddies evo goes 9.99 on stock block just get a big turbo like his a 6266 and it doesnt make tq down low so no bent rods. he made 670awhp stock block

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    There's soooo many more aftermarket options for the JDM cars, specifically the EVO
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    420 WHP on 93 Octane | 460 WHP on E85
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 600whp S4 Click here to enlarge
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    my buddies evo goes 9.99 on stock block just get a big turbo like his a 6266 and it doesnt make tq down low so no bent rods. he made 670awhp stock block
    So the bigger the turbo, the safer the motor will be? I bet the drivetrain doesn't like that 670awhp! I'm sure that would be an issue down the road.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by EDM92 Click here to enlarge
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    Vargas is also definitely an option. Hoping that goes over well and we have something new for the market. Hopefully cheaper than RB too.



    I've read conflicting reports on if the rods will hold with the power I'm looking for. What's the deal with that? Can I hold the power without issue, or is it bound to blow up? I'd be happy pushing about 450whp if I can stick with just pump gas (93) and wouldn't have to worry about the motor as much.

    Just remembered another con to the Evo is the gas mileage will be horrible for DDing.
    If you go with an fp red, you will still make decent torque down low which is what the rods don't like. If you go with a bigger turbo, it won't make as much torque down low and shift the piwerband to the right. It's a safer approach on a stock block, but will you be able to tolerate the lag on a daily driver? That's a question only you can answer yourself. Oh and anything on e85 will have terrible mileage, but with the amount of fun it offers I doubt you will care lol. If you are going to be running strictly 93 octane, then fp red is not a good choice for that as it requires high boost (race gas, meth or e85) to achieve near 500awhp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by EDM92 Click here to enlarge
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    So the bigger the turbo, the safer the motor will be? I bet the drivetrain doesn't like that 670awhp! I'm sure that would be an issue down the road.

    only thing he has done to the drivetrain is a twin disc clutch. If you know how to launch stock is fine. He has stock tranny and transfer case and axles. over 300 1/4 passes 140k mile motor

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    Awesome answer to my question from an EvolutionM.net forum member. Great forum, awesome members. Thanks Levar!

    "Hello, my friend. I read through your thread and you can feel free to post my response for others to speculate.
    For starters, power DOES NOT cause ANY damage to the drivetrain or rods. Torque is the aspect that you MUST take account for under two reasons (1) spikes experienced early in the powerband < 3,600 RPM and (2) trying to boost the car in higher gears with low speeds and low RPMs as load is greater on the engine. The second reason is where the term "punch it at low RPMs" originate. The third aspect that we are not talking about is a terrible tune but that is not the topic. On the topic of a larger turbo, yes it does push your powerband to the right and this is what this means. For example, if you have a smaller turbo, the sweet spot could be between 4,000-7,200 RPM but with a larger, T3 turbo, the sweet spot could be 5,000-9,000 RPM (beehive springs are a must). For a drag race EVO, the upper RPM range and top end is the goal but for a daily driver, the lower-to-mid range is what the goal is. I am familiar with the 670whp EVO as it was wonderfully tuned at JMS, right? I have the FP Red and run it with 91-octane. I am making 427whp and 358wtq (peak at 6,234 RPM) at only 21PSI. This is all I can squeeze out of this fuel. You can easily make 450whp with the FP Red and it is large enough to keep your powerband far enough to the right to prevent those early, violent torque spikes I mentioned earlier and still large enough to give you the power goals you are after. With 93-octane, you should be able to tune around the 24-27PSI range with no knock. If you ever build your shortblock and use E85, then yes, the FP Red is a beast at 30PSI+. This is what is meant by the FP Red "shines" at high boost. I hope this was helpful."

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    Bump for hopefully some more insightful responses!
    Daily: 2007 Montego Blue E92 335i - Stock
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    N54s sort of hit a brick wall at 450 whp. I think for a reliable 450 whp the N54 is a great platform, anything after that you will spend 5x more than the EVO to get the other 50 hp.
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    If you want to modify to a high level the Evo has more parts available at lower cost.

    Is your goal just 500 whp or anything in particular? Tracking? Drag racing?

    Evo is more boy racer and the 335 a little more grown up but it's up to you. The EVO can be a fun little car.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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