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    Meth technical questions spray/inject before (pre) compressor - ESS E60 M5 VT1 supercharger kit limp mode

    I have an E60 M5 with an ESS VT1 (non-intercooled 5psi) supercharger. The supercharger is the Vortech V3Si, same as the M3 kits, so it is too small for the V-10 application. I plotted the engine at various RPMS across the compressor map, and above 7000 RPM it is in the 30% efficiency range or less! Making tons of heat for a little amount of boost.
    The thing puts out so much heat that on a dyno it goes into limp mode from the heat before I even get half a pull done. (but works fine as long as highway sped air is going through the engine bay)

    So I am going to go the meth injection route, just for some cooling to keep timing from being pulled when it is hot. This setup has huge butt-dyno changes depending on ambient temp, so I know some meth cooling will really help with consistency. And no, I don't want to go the intercooler route, that is just more weight all up front of the car, and still will be affected by ambient temperature on long runs.
    I will use at least one (maybe two) injectors in the supercharger discharge pipe, and one in front of the supercharger. From what I have read injecting pre-supercharger/turbo makes the compressor act larger, which is exactly what I need. It basically moves the compressor map over to the right, which would bring my efficiency up.

    Two questions:

    1-is meth injected pre-compressor included in the calculations of meth requirements for the setup? Or is it only the downstream injectors that count?
    DevilsOwn (the kit I am going to use) injector calculator tells me I need 6.3 units of flow (not sure what units they are using, but their nozzles range from 0.75 to 10)

    2-how much of the meth should be injected pre-supercharger? Small amount, half of the total, or what? Do I use a #1 in front of the supercharger and a #5 behind to total the 6 units of spray I need? Or a #2 in front and a #4 or 5 behind? Or is it a percentage of total spray?

    I am unable to get ahold of tech support at any meth company so I am groping around the internet for answers. Read a lot of threads, but none of them mention nozzle sizes, just placement. Not a lot of people going pre-compressor either, even though it really seems like a good idea, particularly in the "too-small supercharger" setup.
    Thanks for any help you guys might provide.

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    You dont want to spray pre-compressor, it will eat away at the blades.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    You dont want to spray pre-compressor, it will eat away at the blades.
    Well, I'm going to do it anyway. The only places I have ever read that is quotes like this on message boards. All technical articles and information on manufacturers' websites I could find tend to disagree with that statement as long as spray is atomized comletely.

    So all of these people here with all of these supercharged, meth spraying cars, does everybody just takes theirs to a shop and has the shop do the work? Not the place for DIYers I take it?

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    I installed my own meth kit, and had no desire to inject meth pre-turbo. I dont have any technical information to share, but in my mind i have a few concerns;
    1. If the meth isn't properly atomized, it could cling to the compressor wheel which could cause it to become unbalanced and cause wear or damage to the unit.
    2. I would expect the effectiveness of the cooling to be minimal, vs injecting post supercharger. Cooling ambient air wont be as effective as cooling the charged air that's been heated.

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    It could be tough to evenly distribute post-superchager in my opinion. Supercharger spins much slower than a turbo so before won't be as harmful. Probably would want to inject 100% meth if you did go pre-charger and as far upstream as possible.

    And supercharger moves a constant cfm... So pre-charger you are packing more o2 molecules. Post you are reducing PR. More power potential in the latter.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    It could be tough to evenly distribute post-superchager in my opinion. Supercharger spins much slower than a turbo so before won't be as harmful. Probably would want to inject 100% meth if you did go pre-charger and as far upstream as possible.

    And supercharger moves a constant cfm... So pre-charger you are packing more o2 molecules. Post you are reducing PR. More power potential in the latter.
    Hard to wrap my head around how a superchargers pushes a constant CFM. Can you elaborate? The CFM should be in relation to RPM on a centrifugal as the compressor increases RPM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Hard to wrap my head around how a superchargers pushes a constant CFM. Can you elaborate? The CFM should be in relation to RPM on a centrifugal as the compressor increases RPM.
    Yeah, constant per rpm is what i meant... Compared to a turbo hitting a boost target.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Impulsoren Click here to enlarge
    Well, I'm going to do it anyway. The only places I have ever read that is quotes like this on message boards. All technical articles and information on manufacturers' websites I could find tend to disagree with that statement as long as spray is atomized comletely.

    So all of these people here with all of these supercharged, meth spraying cars, does everybody just takes theirs to a shop and has the shop do the work? Not the place for DIYers I take it?
    ok, well, you have to ensure you have a system that can effectively atomize it, a nozzle meant for such things, and a location to place the nozzle. Other forums are full of users that said what you said, did it anyway, and had to send the blowers to get rebuilt. Good luck on it.

    All of us installed our own kits, post some pics and we can help you

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    You dont want to spray pre-compressor, it will eat away at the blades.
    This is a true statement in more than 1 way.

    Whether you are using a cast or billet aluminum compressor wheel, meth will attack it chemically. Over time, some material will be shed. But in my opinion, as long as this occurs uniformly over the surface of the compressor wheel, you've got little to worry about.

    I also agree that having droplets of any liquid hitting a surface that's traveling at close to the speed of sound will over time have an effect. There are a number of ways of minimizing this impact, which have been partially mentioned above.

    1. Small droplet size. As a reference point, anything under 100 microns is considered well atomized, with some cases of near 50 microns occuring under high pressure with a proper nozzle. If you can see "spray" with the naked eye, you're probably seeing droplet size over 100 microns.
    2. Location of impact. If you could pick a spot to have droplets land, the center of the compressor wheel would be ideal to minimize physical stress. The problem is that you'd be missing out on distribution, and the effects of heat transfer across varying points on the compressor wheel. Idealy, if you could control the mass-flow of the spray cone, you'd want less mass in the center of the spray cone, and more on the outside. The idea being that you'd want to deliver cooling medium to the areas of highest air-mass compression. To distribute the location of impact evenly, it would be best to have the spray nozzle positioned facing the compressor wheel with the edge of 90% mass of the spray cone matching the inlet pipe...or at least the inlet radius leading towards the compressor wheel.
    3. Droplet velocity. This will sound backwards, but the smaller the velocity difference between the droplets and the compressor wheel, the better. Unfortunately, the velocity of each is in a different direction, so you are left controlling the vector differential. The best case scenario would be to have the droplets arriving at the speed of incoming airflow. Again, having even distribution across the inlet pipe is the best way to achieve this.
    4. No drips. Having a dripping spray nozzle when the system is not active causes big droplets of liquid to be launched towards the compressor wheel. This is also a big advantage to progressive systems that use constant pressure pumps, and a control valve (PWM) to control mass flow of the liquid. Lower pressure at the nozzle increases droplet size. Back to the original point: check-valves are your friend.


    I will be spraying pre-compressor on my street car, but I'm well aware of the "effects".

    With that said, all of the miss-information and lack of data has me extremely motivated to answer a lot of questions. As a result, the following sensors will be included in my installation, and logged by a stand-alone ECU.

    • Pre-compressor air temp
    • Pre-compressor pressure
    • Compressor wheel speed*
    • Liquid injection PWM
    • Liquid injection flow rate
    • Liquid injection pressure
    • Post-compressor air temp
    • Post-compressor pressure
    • Manifold mass flow (MAF)
    • Manifold air temp
    • Manifold air pressure


    In addition to the pre-compressor injection, I also have a second system that will inject post MAF into the intake manifold, as well as nitrous.

    The idea is to have a measured response of temp, pressure, and mass flow.


    Edit: And for anyone that is wondering, because I get this question a lot, no I'm not an engineer.
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    Sorry, edited and got a double-post!
    Last edited by Impulsoren; 09-10-2012 at 03:40 AM.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    So, I believe that Devilsown has some of the best nozzles on the market with regard to atomization, and I am comfortable injecting pre-compressor with those. Plus, did I mention this thing gets HOT? I don't believe there is a chance of any droplets existing by the time the charge gets to the compressor wheel, it will all be vapor at that point or as soon as it hits the intake radius of the SC. And the point there is to not really cool the intake charge, but increase the efficiency of the too-small compressor by giving it colder denser air to work with. This phenomenon is widely published, even if I am misstating the way it works in technical terms.

    For the actual charge-cooling effect, I will inject the appropriate amount of meth/water downstream of the supercharger.

    What I am possibly looking at is going small nozzle available pointed right at the compressor, using a high meth:water ratio, or pure meth, to ensure complete vaporisation so no droplets hitting the wheel. And unless I am injecting sulfuric acid or something, I don't imagine the vapor hurting the blades, although that might be possible in the long term.

    My main questions still have to do with nozzle sizes, I see some turbo guys running all of their meth through the turbo, some guys say inject 1/3 total spray pre-compressor. But I am thinking smallest nozzle available pre-compressor and the majority of the spray going into a larger nozzle in the supercharger discharge pipe is safest to start.

    I suppose I could start with only a post charger setup and see if it gives me all The cooling I need. But I really like the idea of spraying in front to get the supercharger out of the 30% efficiency range and into something more like 40%.

    If you go to the ESS website and look at underhood pics of the VT1 system on the E60 M5, you will see the ample room to place nozzles wherever I want, pre charger can be anywhere from 1 inch to 2 feet away in the intake pipe. Which sits right behind the radiator and gets a lot of heatsoak, too hot to touch most of the time.

    I just want to know, what is the real deal as far as how much to spray pre-compressor. Although the nozzles are inexpensive enough to buy a bunch and play around I guess.

    Thanks for the thought-provoking ideas guys. I think I am almost there with what parts to start with at least.

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    I would argue that CoolingMist has the best nozzles for atomization, specifically the CM series.

    and dont run pure meth, your going to want some water. how much will take some testing

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    Look into the aquamist nozzles, mine are great.

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    You cant use conjecture to assume there will be no droplets in the intake before the compressor. I have sprayed pre-compressor for over a year and it took me a long time with very baby steps to nail down a good system.

    Just because the supercharger impeller is spinning with a lower angular velocity doesnt mean the blades are not moving at or near the speed of sound. Centri impellers are bigger than turbo impellers because they dont make gearboxes that can spin at 200,000 RPM. So the tip speed of a centri impeller is actually not that much slower than a turbo, erosion is still a problem but not impossible to solve, I did it.

    Inject 100% meth or near 100% if you are afraid of the risks of ignition. Don't inject it too close to the impeller, which I am sure you already know, and ensure your nozzle atomizes properly. There is very little to quantify the design of a system like this. You need to know intact air velocity, evaporation rate and total combined surface area of all the droplets being injected, then of course you need to either assume or know for a fact the droplet diameter so you can compute the exposed methanol droplet area and from there you can compute how long it should take for it to evaporate.

    The problem is, you don't know how big the droplets are to begin with.

    Some nozzle manufacturers will guarantee a nozzle that will produce droplet sizes rated in micron sizes. Thats all you can really go by. From there, you have intake air velocity, that is easily obtained by computing the engines mass flow air consumption and piping diameter. Then you know if the droplet will be evaporated or near evap by the time it makes it to the impeller because you know the length in feet, of your intake pipe.

    There are many more variables involved with designing this system, which is why I just gave up trying to design it using brute force engineering and used more practical experience and trial and error, which I don't like to do, because that can lead to costly mistakes and wasted time. Anyway, pre-impeller injection is doable and the gains are awesome especially if you are not running an intercooler.
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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    You cant use conjecture to assume there will be no droplets in the intake before the compressor. I have sprayed pre-compressor for over a year and it took me a long time with very baby steps to nail down a good system.

    Just because the supercharger impeller is spinning with a lower angular velocity doesnt mean the blades are not moving at or near the speed of sound. Centri impellers are bigger than turbo impellers because they dont make gearboxes that can spin at 200,000 RPM. So the tip speed of a centri impeller is actually not that much slower than a turbo, erosion is still a problem but not impossible to solve, I did it.

    Inject 100% meth or near 100% if you are afraid of the risks of ignition. Don't inject it too close to the impeller, which I am sure you already know, and ensure your nozzle atomizes properly. There is very little to quantify the design of a system like this. You need to know intact air velocity, evaporation rate and total combined surface area of all the droplets being injected, then of course you need to either assume or know for a fact the droplet diameter so you can compute the exposed methanol droplet area and from there you can compute how long it should take for it to evaporate.

    The problem is, you don't know how big the droplets are to begin with.

    Some nozzle manufacturers will guarantee a nozzle that will produce droplet sizes rated in micron sizes. Thats all you can really go by. From there, you have intake air velocity, that is easily obtained by computing the engines mass flow air consumption and piping diameter. Then you know if the droplet will be evaporated or near evap by the time it makes it to the impeller because you know the length in feet, of your intake pipe.

    There are many more variables involved with designing this system, which is why I just gave up trying to design it using brute force engineering and used more practical experience and trial and error, which I don't like to do, because that can lead to costly mistakes and wasted time. Anyway, pre-impeller injection is doable and the gains are awesome especially if you are not running an intercooler.
    Why is it that the gains are better injecting pre-impeller vs post? I would think it would be more effective at cooling the intake charge after being heated during compression by the supercharger.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Why is it that the gains are better injecting pre-impeller vs post? I would think it would be more effective at cooling the intake charge after being heated during compression by the supercharger.
    Let's look at two scenarios to understand that.

    First scenario, the compressor pressurizes the air without any form of pre-intercooling. In this case, the compressor doesnt know that the air that comes out gets cool, it doesnt care. The only thing it 'sees' is ambient air coming in at about 100F, lets say. This 100F air then goes through a process by which it's pressure gets raised very quickly and at the same time so does its temperature. The relationship between the pressure and temperature increase is represented by the following. This is called isentropic compression, or compression with constant entropy. Typical of a compressor like this.

    Click here to enlarge

    If you look closely at this equation you will notice that the function is very non-linear.

    Let's talk about what happens when you inject meth before the compressor. The impeller will actually now 'see' a cooler inlet charge, this brings down the outlet temperature of the compressor and lets it work as if it was a bigger compressor. In other words, if you assume the same efficiency of the compressor, the compressor can flow more with cooler inlet charges and hit higher boost because the outlet temp is reduced by a power function, not a linear function. Or, you can hit the same boost with less impeller speed.

    For a turbocharger this is a huge gain, because impeller speed goes up nonlinearly as engine mass flow goes up, this is because outlet temperature of a turbo impeller does not produce a linearly increasing outlet temperature, it eventually falls off a cliff and this is where the impeller no longer can move any more air no matter how fast you spin it. Injection before the impeller makes it spin slower to attain the same boost and flow.



    Also note, that the advantage of having methanol flow through the compressor is, the air has a harder time heating up because the methanol is going through a phase change through the compressor. When a fluid goes from a liquid to a gas, it will not change temperature. This is called saturation. When you boil water, no matter how high you put the stove on, the water will always remain at 212F until the last liquid droplet of water is gone, only then will the temperature increase. So effectively, trying to boil the methanol inside the compressor keeps the temperatures down.

    The above paragraph only holds true if the droplets enter the compressor, as droplets of liquid. As a gas, the methanol can go up in temperature through the compressor. But there is a lot more physics involved with just assuming your entry temperature went down alone, there are many other advantages and some disadvantages to injection pre compressor. Erosion and ignition being the only disadvantages and are easily mitigated.
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    @DBFIU, interesting read and it makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Click here to enlarge

    I guess in my mind i was thinking that since the air leaving the supercharger was so much hotter, the meth would be more effective at lowering this temperatures, vs lowering the temperatures of the ambient air. I would assume that meth would lower ambient temp only a few degrees, whereas if the intake temps post supercharger were 150*, the meth might lower it 30-40*(these are random numbers).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @DBFIU , interesting read and it makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Click here to enlarge

    I guess in my mind i was thinking that since the air leaving the supercharger was so much hotter, the meth would be more effective at lowering this temperatures, vs lowering the temperatures of the ambient air. I would assume that meth would lower ambient temp only a few degrees, whereas if the intake temps post supercharger were 150*, the meth might lower it 30-40*(these are random numbers).

    You could lower the uncooled 250F air down to 50F with meth. But performance-wise, the blower will want an inlet temp of 50F and an outlet temp of 150F as opposed to an inlet temp of 100F and an outlet temp of 250F, that way you dont need meth to lower it much if at all, after the blower. Because the efficiency is happening inside the blower, you want mass flow.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @DBFIU , interesting read and it makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Click here to enlarge

    I guess in my mind i was thinking that since the air leaving the supercharger was so much hotter, the meth would be more effective at lowering this temperatures, vs lowering the temperatures of the ambient air. I would assume that meth would lower ambient temp only a few degrees, whereas if the intake temps post supercharger were 150*, the meth might lower it 30-40*(these are random numbers).
    This is the case with an intercooler, where it relies on a temperature differential to do it's work. The higher the inlet temps, the greater the potential temperature drop through the intercooler. (Dependant on design)

    Meth works in a more linear fashion; as in if you put in XX grams of meth into XX Kg of air it will lower the temperature XX degrees. Of course this is somewhat dependant on droplet size, and assumes that there is a enough time for evaporation to occur.

    Where pre-compressor injection really makes it's gains is by allowing you to inject fluid volume above the saturation point of air at ambient temp, and then use the heat generated inside the compressor to evaporate it.

    Now some people will say, "wait a minute, why don't we just let the compressor heat the air, then inject the same fluid volume after the compressor to get the same cooling effect?". They would be right in their assumption, but they would be missing the point that by allowing this process to happen inside of the compressor housing, the efficiency of the compressor increases. Injecting after the compressor can actually decrease compressor efficiency slightly....but I won't to into that here.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Injecting after the compressor can actually decrease compressor efficiency slightly....but I won't to into that here.
    we do have an advanced tech section Click here to enlarge

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    Again, my whole point of injecting pre-compressor is not for the cooling, but to make the compresor more efficient. It is way too small for the V-10 (I have read quite a few posts complaining about the V3Si being too small for even the V-8 so even worse....)
    Devilsown claims droplet size of 10 microns, but of course you can't count on everything being exact every time.

    "The above paragraph only holds true if the droplets enter the compressor, as droplets of liquid." So that changes my assumptions about placement pre-compressor, so I will have to do some math I guess.
    I am going to use the smallest nozzle they have pre-compressor, inject the rest of the calculated need post-compressor for the cooling, do a little math to figure out where things get placed, and then of course mess around with it physically until I actually get it right.
    I do agree, the 100% meth sounds nice but maybe 70/30 or 50/50 will be better and safer. Have to try a few mixes to see what works best.
    That's why I do this, cause I like to play with cars.
    Last edited by Impulsoren; 09-11-2012 at 02:05 AM. Reason: add more info

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    And supercharger moves a constant cfm... So pre-charger you are packing more o2 molecules. Post you are reducing PR. More power potential in the latter.
    What do you mean by constant CFM? It changes based on RPM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, constant per rpm is what i meant... Compared to a turbo hitting a boost target.
    There we go, replied before I got to this post.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    we do have an advanced tech section Click here to enlarge
    Where? Click here to enlarge
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    Moved to S85 as this deals with the ESS kit. Tempted to keep it in advanced tech though.

    Very good thread, excellent posts guys.
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