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    The great BMW vs Porsche debate...

    Decided to make a new thread about this as its a fun argument that requires plenty of attention. Theres also lots of misinformation being spread across.

    Recently we have been seeing the tension with BMW and Porsche inflating. We have seen several BMW's beat Porsche in the past but a recent BMW lose enlightened some Porsche guys to jump on BMW and call them bad platforms for big HP or straight line performance. This created a huge thread on 6speed that was closed by Divexxtreme (Scott). Scott owns a nice GT2 that makes 700whp. He recently built his motor saying its safer and he might want to make more power later.

    The thread mentioned above changed topics several times. First it started because of a race between Batta's M3 and a yellow 996tt owner Prodigymb (bimmerboost thread here: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...2508-RB-335-Vs....). The race was agreed to go from a dig in which case Battas HPF stg 2 E46 M3 lost terribly due to his inexperience of drag racing. He hit the rev limiter (SMG) and could not catch up. Batta requested a roll race after which Prodigy refused. This instigated a big conversation on here and 6speed which was pretty much a flame war at first.

    The next topic turned into BMW being a bad platform for power and straight line performance. This struck me with an urge to respond and I did accordingly. It then turned into a stock Metzger (996TT motor) being able to make 800+whp and that the S54 in stock block form cant. This struck me as odd since several 996tt motors have blown up due to modifying on the stock block. I posted an example of one and Scott proceeded to make claims that EVOMS the tuner (which is a well experienced Porsche tuner) does not know how to tune these cars and thats why it had blown up. Another argument was that the stock S54 is a NA high compression motor that is being compared to a twin turbo factory Porsche motor. Ofcourse with that huge disadvantage, the S54 built is still not being allowed compared to a stock Metzger block. Mind you the S54 stock internals have made over 720whp before... The other point being a comparable power making Porsche bolt on kit costs more then a built S54 with a HPF turbo kit...

    I will post some quotes from the Porsche fans that struck my attention as plain old ignorant.

    Sorry your precious M3 motor's can't do that without going KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
    Below is a quote my A guy that owns a built supercharged S54 E46 M3 and a modified Gt2. He goes on to claim that turbo E46 M3's suck, which imo he only says that because his car is supercharged and doesnt make very much HP. You will notice for even an E46 M3 owner he doesnt know much about his car. My car is running 295 tires and others are running 305's in the rear...

    The Metzger handles 800whp all day? Thats definitely not true, i doubt any stock block 966tt is running around making 800whp everyday. We see proof of metzgers blowing up at 700whp levels.

    Its not perspective, its physics.

    Front engine w/ no room to run anything larger than 275s vs rear engine and 315s plus.

    Also the S54 has to be built to handle big power. The Metzger handles 800 rwhp all day.

    Seriously, your ignorant statements are just embarrasing yourself.
    Here are 2 threads about limits of the stock block Metzger power levels.

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ml#post1131552

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ermined-8.html

    Also keep in mind Scotts Gt2 had some internal problem which caused him to open up the block. He blamed a faulty lifter but also mentioned he thought about sleeving his cylinders. Now why would you even think about that if the Metzger is so damn strong stock?

    To make big power in the S54, you have to build the motor. To make big power on the Metzger, you simply need bolt-ons.
    Sure...

    There are boat loads of Turbos here running 800+ whp on stock motors.
    I guess boat loads equals 3 (Scott has said). Which anyone can put big boost for dyno purposes. Do these cars run all the time in this 800+whp mode, i highly doubt it.

    As far as it being a bit one-sided, that's because the Porsche is a much more proven performer. It's easier to modify, makes a lot more power with those mods, and puts it to the ground better. The only person that doesn't want to admit these facts is you.

    But we already know the truth: 1/4 mile, 60-130, standing mile, 0-60, 0-300 K/MH, 100-200K/MH, Porsche street cars beat BMW street cars in every acceleration test known to man. Porsche has sold over 10 different production cars since 2000 that go under 8:00 around the ring. BMW has has sold zero. Porsche is consitently ranked in the top 2 or 3 in JD Power's initial quality rankings. BMW is consistently in the top 15.
    So BMW is not a proven performer? Porsche does not beat BMW in the 1/4 mile, sorry.. 60-130 numbers yes they do. Porsche guys became a huge fan of the 60-130 time, i think mainly because their cars are perfect for achieving those times. Gearing is great, traction is good from 60 etc.. We will soon see better 60-130 numbers from BMW's including mine.

    I guess the S54 winning the international engine of the year for 6 years straight doesnt mean anything but JD powers rankings do.

    850 is bigger power. So is 870 and and so is 915. All of these numbers are being made by stock-engined Metzger motors.

    700 is a cake-walk for a P-car. Heck, I did that on 93 octane gas without meth or water injection.
    Ya shortly after he had to open his motor because something went wrong. Click here to enlarge My car has made 700whp on 91 oct as well btw..

    Since it's high-compression, it requires less boost IOT achieve the same effective compression ratio (ECR - what actually matters in terms of power and the effect on internal components) that a lower-compression motor running higher boost would (i.e., Metzger)
    Umm ya thats true but a point the ECR will actually be too high at 1 point for the S54 to run more boost so it needs to be built to run safely. The Metzger doesnt have this ECR problem as it is already low compression...


    The argument continues that Porsches making less power then BMW will beat the BMW. We saw 2 examples of this, Battas which lost from a dig race. And a slightly modified Gt2 against a HPF E46 m3. Video below...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fEH7M9x-t0


    I then posted my video vs a SG650 996tt.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aVCL0M4e0A


    S54 to Metzger engine yes you can compare the engines, but the platforms really are two completely different animals. The 996 TT responds 5 times better to bolt on mods and is the only one that can make an easy 500-550 awhp with everything the way it left the factory except the tune.
    5 times better? Lol...


    I posted videos (which will be posted below) of M3's running the 1/4 mile with very fast times (faster then every Porsche except 1 older one, Eddie Bellos beast). I also posted videos of M3's beating some good powered 996tts from roll races.
    Last edited by TaZaM3; 07-06-2010 at 06:47 PM.

  2. #2
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    Heres a video of Drews old E46 supercharged M3 vs a 996tt EVO750


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    I posted these 2 videos and they were shot down called dedicated drag cars. And Porsches are not drag cars but do everything.. Sure...




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    It is an interesting debate but unfortunately Scott (Divexxextreme) is the moderator and began deleting posts and abusing his power power to swerve the discussion in his favor. He also started basically telling us to not talk anymore even though I thought discussing cars was the purpose of car forums?

    It makes it a little tough to sit there and claim the 996 tt's motor is stronger when you have had to rebuild your own because it didn't handle what your threw at it. Why change the rods if it is as strong as they claim? It isn't.

    The E46 M3 SC owner you quote himself stated over the 6XX hp range you should change the rods. He does not believe his own BS. The fact that the S54 on stock internals hits what the 996tt does on stock internals and does it with higher compression, less displacement, and less boost shows it is a more efficient motor and a great platform for power if not a stronger one. I'll take the S54, an I6 layout, an iron block, and the superior valvetrain/heads any day of the week. A German 2JZ-GTE if their ever was one, more so than the Metzger that is for sure.

    They don't pay attention to the International Engine of the Year awards because BMW hands Porsche and everyone else their ass in engine building. From small motors to performance motors, they are the most awarded manufacturer by far. The S54 dominated that competition to a level no Porsche motor has or ever will.

    They claim boat loads of 996 TT's are running over 800 whp. Huh? I saw one and that guy only runs high boost for bragging rights so his motor doesn't fall apart. That is not his daily driven map. Dyno queen numbers are not real world every day performance numbers, sorry.

    If you want to start getting into the upper range you have to build both motors, what don't they get?
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  7. #7
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    They really overrated their 911's and I will go out of my way to hunt all these cars down. They were propping up their Porsches in a thread where a Porsche owner was scared to run a turbo M3 from a roll. How funny is that?
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    you guys are so cool!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shahsk Click here to enlarge
    you guys are so cool!
    I look forward to the day you have a car so you can participate.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I look forward to the day you have a car so you can participate.
    I'm ready to rape 6 speed cars with a 5 speed.. yayyyyy
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Ok, you got me interested, where is the 6speed thread?

  12. #12
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    You seriously missed it?? Its one of the longest threads ive ever participated in. I gave up even looking for quotes, theres so much more. It will take a very long time to read it from start to finish.

    And here it start: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...race-vids.html

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    Ok, you got me interested, where is the 6speed thread?
    Enjoy 52 pages of bliss: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...race-vids.html
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  14. #14
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    You seriously missed it?? Its one of the longest threads ive ever participated in. I gave up even looking for quotes, theres so much more. It will take a very long time to read it from start to finish.

    And here it start: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...race-vids.html
    A shame he cut it off as we were making him look bad and like a hypocrite. God forbid too much car talk takes place Click here to enlarge
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  15. #15
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    Hahah, this Powell guy is an idiot:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Powell
    First we are not Supra's... They are one of the ONLY communities to use APU/BPU words... I came from the LS1 world and we NEVER used that stupid sh!t... It was bolt-ons, Forced Induction, N2O, and built motors (when it was N/A)...
    These guys think turbo upgrades with re-routed hoses, special manifolds, and fuel system upgrades are "bolt on's." The guy himself right here admits that changing the forced induction setup is no longer a bolt on, just like changing the fuel system. If he actually believed his definition, nitrous would a be bolt on but we all know it isn't and he admits so right here. What a hypocrite, he shoots his own legs out from under him and isn't even bright enough to see it.

    I like how just because it is a Porsche the terms Supra guy use no longer are appropriate even though they have it right. I like how they just want to make themselves feel like complex turbo and fuel system ugprades are just like installing a filter.
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    That thread is seriously an abomination. All I have to say is this:

    I will race prodigymb, unvmy996, divexxtreme or any other 996TT/GT2 owner from a dig at any NHRA legal track. I have a car to race each one so
    that none of them have an excuse. Stock engine vs stock engine and built engine vs built engine. I just need one week and any of my cars will be
    ready. You guys can go ahead and link this to 6speedonline.com since I am currently banned from there.

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    You guys do know that there is an individual that made over 700whp on a bone stock s2000 engine right? I bet the Porsche or BMW guys would loveeee that ... Click here to enlarge 2.0L inline 4! Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DonQuijote Click here to enlarge
    You guys do know that there is an individual that made over 700whp on a bone stock s2000 engine right? I bet the Porsche or BMW guys would loveeee that ... Click here to enlarge 2.0L inline 4! Click here to enlarge
    I want 1 now.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DonQuijote Click here to enlarge
    That thread is seriously an abomination. All I have to say is this:

    I will race prodigymb, unvmy996, divexxtreme or any other 996TT/GT2 owner from a dig at any NHRA legal track. I have a car to race each one so
    that none of them have an excuse. Stock engine vs stock engine and built engine vs built engine. I just need one week and any of my cars will be
    ready. You guys can go ahead and link this to 6speedonline.com since I am currently banned from there.
    Where do i link it?
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    Where do i link it?
    They locked that thread.

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    Ya Divexx locked it to save face and not continue the debate any longer, to prove how open minded he is and all.
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    They suck
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    i was reading that thread...i dont get why the porsche guy who raced wouldnt race from a roll, what a douche...they all made it out like it was nothing...the m3 owner raced the race you wanted, have the courtesy to at least also do the race he wants...id understand if it was for money, but it was for fun from my knowledge and its just fun to compare cars in different ways, i dont get why people care if they lose...theres always gona be something faster...just enjoy as 2 car enthusiasts...

    now comparing engines, they are much different...strange to compare, apples to orange, low comp flat 6 twin turbo vs inline 6 high comp. And the car layouts are just different...the porsche is obviously have better off the line grip on the street due to the rear engine..but look at any drag car, its FR so. People need to stop getting so offended and feeling personally attacked when people discuss and compare cars.

    and just wait for the company that has been working on turbocharging the GT3! although they said they were gona put out some more info soon, and videos of runs they were gona do i think...its been awhile! hopefully nothing bad happened.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sammyrusso Click here to enlarge
    i was reading that thread...i dont get why the porsche guy who raced wouldnt race from a roll, what a douche...they all made it out like it was nothing...the m3 owner raced the race you wanted, have the courtesy to at least also do the race he wants...id understand if it was for money, but it was for fun from my knowledge and its just fun to compare cars in different ways, i dont get why people care if they lose...theres always gona be something faster...just enjoy as 2 car enthusiasts...

    now comparing engines, they are much different...strange to compare, apples to orange, low comp flat 6 twin turbo vs inline 6 high comp. And the car layouts are just different...the porsche is obviously have better off the line grip on the street due to the rear engine..but look at any drag car, its FR so. People need to stop getting so offended and feeling personally attacked when people discuss and compare cars.

    and just wait for the company that has been working on turbocharging the GT3! although they said they were gona put out some more info soon, and videos of runs they were gona do i think...its been awhile! hopefully nothing bad happened.
    Exactly!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sammyrusso Click here to enlarge
    i was reading that thread...i dont get why the porsche guy who raced wouldnt race from a roll, what a douche...they all made it out like it was nothing...the m3 owner raced the race you wanted, have the courtesy to at least also do the race he wants...id understand if it was for money, but it was for fun from my knowledge and its just fun to compare cars in different ways, i dont get why people care if they lose...theres always gona be something faster...just enjoy as 2 car enthusiasts...
    EXACTLY. If it was the other way around and Batta ran from a roll and won, then took off to go proclaim victory on the internet they would be complaining he didn't go from a stop. A bunch of hypocrites who are not true car enthusiasts and who do not have respect for others. You have to treat that guy with the 996 like the child he is and not give him what he wants.
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