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    A Note To Tuners Re: Track Tunes

    A request to folks working on tunes for the N20...

    When you tune throttle mapping there is a different need on the track than on the street/strip. Aggressive tip-in maps impress folks on the street and may be better for 1/4 mile. But on a road course they make our cars tough to drive due in large part to the lack of real LSD. For HPDE it is preferable to have progressive tip-in and spool-up so that we can transition smoothly from brake to throttle at the apex. If power comes on too abruptly the driver needs to breathe out of the throttle to limit wheel spin, which in turn harms exit speed. Once drivers go to throttle while tracking out, we really need to be able to keep adding gas and have the power build in a linear fashion. This is really important especially for novice students who lack the skill and experience to manage abrupt power changes...

    Thank you for keeping this in mind when tuning our cars.

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    I think this is a major point to help HPDE drivers. I would even be willing to change the turbo to get smooth power delivery even if the peak is the same as an overboosted stock turbo.

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    This is not only an issue for N20 tunes.
    It would be VERY nice if for instance BMS would bring new JB4 software versions for the N54 as wel in Road cours and Track versions with different throttle responces.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    This is not only an issue for N20 tunes.
    It would be VERY nice if for instance BMS would bring new JB4 software versions for the N54 as wel in Road cours and Track versions with different throttle responces.
    The Procede is quite linear in throttle response. COBB might be an option as well with getting a custom tune by PTF. They can dial in custom throttle caracteristics.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    The Procede is quite linear in throttle response.
    I know.
    ProCede has too many other issues for me to consider it as an option.
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    When Cobb tackles the N20 I think this should be a reasonable expectation.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    The Procede is quite linear in throttle response. COBB might be an option as well with getting a custom tune by PTF. They can dial in custom throttle caracteristics.
    I drove a 135i with a COBB tune and it was ok other than his check engine light, but I thought the stock 135i was more driver friendly other than lacking power on the straights. This could even be an industry wide problem, but it almost certainly explains why tunes that are safe for the track are much more expensive because the engine can survive 1600F EGT temps briefly and produces cool dynos but lap after lap for hopefully longer than 20 minutes would kill a number of cars and of course no tuner will take responsibility for how you drive the car.

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    What tunes have you currently looked at for the N20?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Terry @ Burger is the only one that I have talked to about it much but their graph alone indicates tip-in detonation. He seems to indicate that the stock engine doesn't even run well on 91 octane at the track so more boost or timing doesn't sound like a good option to me.

    "The tuning is meant more for street cars, drag cars, etc. Definitely get the octane up though before running at the track on the stock tuning"

    "Maybe 100 of our Stage1 tunes are out in use and they are working well. No feedback from extended road race courses, though. Given proper octane I don't expect any issues at these mild boost levels."

    Without feedback or testing from the manufacturer, it's quite hard for me to lay down any money to blow an engine that may or may not be covered by warranty but I appreciate him being honest about it and not just selling a product. Maybe BMS will look to do it in the future but to be completely honest, if he sold 100 units and there are 4-5 people here that would want something slightly different.. it isn't really worth his time.

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    Cobb has provided a range of throttle maps on their N54 flash in response to similar requests.

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    When is @COBB Tuning tackling this platform?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Since I had and was happy with COBB on my Evo X, I have written them a couple of times asking about a N20 tune. They tell me they are working on it, but do not offer an ETA. Chances are I will hold out for their product.

    I instructed in a N54 car running JB4 and the throttle tip-in was so aggressive that it was almost scary as an instructor. Even when I drove it on demo laps it was difficult to modulate. Conversely the SSTT I had on my personal N54 gave much more progressive throttle response.

    Interesting to read about the detonation on the N20. Hopefully people will get that resolved soon.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mocohead Click here to enlarge
    I have written them a couple of times asking about a N20 tune. They tell me they are working on it, but do not offer an ETA.
    At least we know they are working on it.

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    Well, seeing as they still don't have a tune for the n55 I wouldn't expect a product for the n20 anytime soon. Cobb was my first tune on my 335i and I'll be buying another AP soon, their product is solid, but they do take their time and make sure they release a solid product. That my friends, takes time. I plan on buying the wife an X1 with an n20 in it and I'll def go the BMS route since there's no chance she'll be tracking the X1 LOL.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Well, seeing as they still don't have a tune for the n55 I wouldn't expect a product for the n20 anytime soon. Cobb was my first tune on my 335i and I'll be buying another AP soon, their product is solid, but they do take their time and make sure they release a solid product. That my friends, takes time. I plan on buying the wife an X1 with an n20 in it and I'll def go the BMS route since there's no chance she'll be tracking the X1 LOL.
    The N20 market may prove to be more expansive than the N55 market.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The N20 market may prove to be more expansive than the N55 market.
    I agree sticky especially in the upgraded turbo market but I still wouldn't think they would release an N20 tune before they released an N55 tune. I'm betting that a single turbo upgrade is going to come out for the N20 a lot sooner than it took for the N54 and we'll see 500 HP N20s a lot faster than we saw 500HP N54s. (Still never seen a 400 HP N55 LOL!) I may just buy myself a 128i if that happens!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I'm betting that a single turbo upgrade is going to come out for the N20 a lot sooner than it took for the N54 and we'll see 500 HP N20s a lot faster than we saw 500HP N54s.
    I would make this same bet.

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    i can't wait, you know how cheap a 128i is......
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I agree sticky especially in the upgraded turbo market but I still wouldn't think they would release an N20 tune before they released an N55 tune. I'm betting that a single turbo upgrade is going to come out for the N20 a lot sooner than it took for the N54 and we'll see 500 HP N20s a lot faster than we saw 500HP N54s. (Still never seen a 400 HP N55 LOL!) I may just buy myself a 128i if that happens!
    I believe this is the only way this car is going to go much faster. Anybody not looking at a new turbo is kidding themselves about the ability of a mitsu td04-06 at 21psi. I have yet to find the actual compressor map, but stock was 17-18psi and tunes are in the 21+ area so they obviously know something. I still hold to the fact that the injectors can not handle more than another 50hp or so (again depending on the actual #'s being seen so I am going purely on HP and size)

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brian99997 Click here to enlarge
    I still hold to the fact that the injectors can not handle more than another 50hp or so (again depending on the actual #'s being seen so I am going purely on HP and size)
    What are you basing this on? I can't remember a modern BMW that had stock injectors that small. I don't think the problem is a fuel delivery limitation here it's the size of the turbo.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What are you basing this on? I can't remember a modern BMW that had stock injectors that small. I don't think the problem is a fuel delivery limitation here it's the size of the turbo.
    Assuming non-gdi knowledge, I based it off the 335i having 70% duty cycle from the factory and we have the same injectors (as well as a ton of others including the 740, e90's and some of the suvs) except the n20 uses 4 of them so our duty cycle could be more like 84%. Most of my knowledge just comes from simple math, nothing tested because I can't find a turbo to stick on the car or I would have tried it already.

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    I definitely see upgraded turbos in this engine's future, but no time soon. IDC is an interesting theory. Brian99997, are you running a BMS tune? If not it may be worth it just to do some logging and see what's really going on with the engine.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    If not it may be worth it just to do some logging and see what's really going on with the engine.
    Honestly that concerns me about being an early adapter. I would hope that the tuner would do that background work and report the results to consumers. But so far none of the few companies offering products for the N20 are providing any substantive data.

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    I'm sure Terry from BMS would provide any data you would like in his n20 tune.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brian99997 Click here to enlarge
    Assuming non-gdi knowledge, I based it off the 335i having 70% duty cycle from the factory and we have the same injectors (as well as a ton of others including the 740, e90's and some of the suvs) except the n20 uses 4 of them so our duty cycle could be more like 84%. Most of my knowledge just comes from simple math, nothing tested because I can't find a turbo to stick on the car or I would have tried it already.
    The N54 hits about 600 whp on the stock injectors? The M3 does the same and is not yet maxed? So your numbers would not make sense with what has been achieved.

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