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  1. #1
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    Procede FlexFuel Testing: E85 Fuel Mixing Time

    This doesn't happen very often from me but I applaud Shiv for this recent thread on e90. Thanks for the data, great contribution indeed and if only most posts were like this (i.e. zero hype) Click here to enlarge Thought I'd copy it over here to share...10mins for fuel to mix, very interesting stuff, what do you guys think?

    I recall seeing a fuel system diagram on the 1M with some extra lines to/from the tank and I'm not sure if its possibly a return-type fuel setup, doubt it though.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
    Hi guys,
    Now that I'm back from Asia, I've been doing some more testing on the Vishnu/FFTEC Flexfuel system. This time I wanted to document how long it actually takes for fuel to mix in the tank and to find its way to the fuel injectors. I've often heard other tuners suggest that its okay to add e85 at the pump and then to immediately start running their car on the "e85 map". This clearly shows a lack of understanding of how our fuel system works.

    Since the N54 fuel system is return-less and doesn't benefit from a stream of fuel circulating from the fuel rail back into the tank, it's clear to those who understand that more time is needed for newly added fuel to be available at the fuel injector. Here's the proof.

    Our FlexFuel/Fuel composition sensor isn't mounted underhood near the driver-side shock tower. There is still roughly 2' of 5/16" fuel line between the HPFP inlet and the FlexFuel sensor. A whole lot better than mounting it in the fuel tank which would mean that there would be much longer column of unmixed fuel between sensor and the HPFP.

    Below is a log of Ethanol % (raw un-smoothened signal from FlexFuel sensor) and RPM. We started off with approx 1 gallon of 91oct pump gas (10.2% ethanol content according to sensor) and then added 5 gallons of E85 at the time marked below. It took approx 30 seconds to add all 5 gallons. The engine was running during the fill up time to speed along mixing (probably illegal at most gas stations Click here to enlarge). At approx the 320 second mark, I started to drive the car on the road at speeds of 10-50mph.

    Click here to enlarge

    The result:

    Once the 5g of e85 were added, it took nearly 7 MINUTES for the fuel to start mixing at the FlexFuel sensor. And then it took another 2.5 minutes tofully mix even with the help of driving the car! What this means to everyone who doesn't have a FlexFuel sensor: You should wait at least 10 minutes to switch over to your e85 map after adding fresh E85 to your tank of pump gas. Most of that time is required for the engine to consume the column of old gas that is between the LPFP outlet and the HPFP inlet. Hope that helps!

    Cheers,
    shiv
    Click here to enlarge

  2. #2
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    With DI I don't really see a return style fuel system being necessary and I don't see BMW investing the money to make the 1M a return style for no gains. On other(PI) platforms, namely the terminator cobras, the return less systems become a problem at around 600whp but that's neither here nor there for us.

    10mins seems a reasonable time frame for clearing the lines out, honestly I never ho WOT within 10 of swapping maps anyway. I like to cruise around like normal for a few miles before hammering WOT to adapt anyway.
    Click here to enlarge
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  3. #3
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    It's definitely good info for us to keep in the back of our minds for those of us who won't be using his Flexfuel solution.

  4. #4
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    It's quality info, but like @rader1 said after I blend my E85 & flash for the map, I'm not burning out of the gas station.After viewing the most recent comments in that COBB vs PROcede thread, I've lost any respect I might of once had for Shiv. Dude just talks endless amounts of $#@! on anybody not supporting him
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  5. #5
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    I agree that it's useful information. This week when I went from 50/50 to 100% E85 I flashed my 100% map while I was filling and immediately went out and logged a pull within 2-3 minutes and was disappointed that it didn't feel a bit faster AND I was getting some knock (I'd added another degree of timing and significantly reduced the timing pull due to CAT in the 100% map). I posted about how I didn't see any advantage to 100% over 50/50 except for not having to pull up to two pumps. I'm noticing now that I'm getting zero knock under the same conditions and I think that I happened to stumble into exactly what he was talking about...

  6. #6
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    IMO, a little skewed as it appears he was letting it idle for ~4.7min. Maybe he was seeing how long the fuel system would flush at idle and got fed up? Beginning to drive for no apparent reason at the 5min mark just screwed up the test. Shoulda done an idle test in conjunction with light throttle test.

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    this is good info to keep in mind

  8. #8
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Carl Morris Click here to enlarge
    I agree that it's useful information. This week when I went from 50/50 to 100% E85 I flashed my 100% map while I was filling and immediately went out and logged a pull within 2-3 minutes and was disappointed that it didn't feel a bit faster AND I was getting some knock (I'd added another degree of timing and significantly reduced the timing pull due to CAT in the 100% map). I posted about how I didn't see any advantage to 100% over 50/50 except for not having to pull up to two pumps. I'm noticing now that I'm getting zero knock under the same conditions and I think that I happened to stumble into exactly what he was talking about...
    Do you mean timing corrections or knock voltage spikes? I'm using meth(not e85) and whenever I log the very first couple pulls after switching maps I get severe timing corrections, however after a couple more pulls the car has adapted and the logs clean up nicely. I tend to do at least 6-7 logs when tweaking my maps before drawing any conclusions.
    Last edited by rader1; 08-23-2012 at 10:17 AM.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  9. #9
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    I mean timing corrections on multiple cylinders. I haven't been able to figure out if the raw knock voltage is actually useful as read by a human.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    After viewing the most recent comments in that COBB vs PROcede thread, I've lost any respect I might of once had for Shiv. Dude just talks endless amounts of $#@! on anybody not supporting him
    +1! That and he'll go out of his way to get you banned on the other forum. But not until he steals ideas from others, incorporate it into his marketing hype, and not give any credit to those he stole it from. Interesting how I argued with him about the amount of power the auto trans can handle. I then suggested a stronger ATF fluid, which would help prolong the inevitable, and he is marketing it on his website for single turbo 6AT guys as a "secret ATF fluid upgrade!". Click here to enlarge

  11. #11
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    +1! That and he'll go out of his way to get you banned on the other forum. But not until he steals ideas from others, incorporate it into his marketing hype, and not give any credit to those he stole it from. Interesting how I argued with him about the amount of power the auto trans can handle. I then suggested a stronger ATF fluid, which would help prolong the inevitable, and he is marketing it on his website for single turbo 6AT guys as a "secret ATF fluid upgrade!". Click here to enlarge
    At least he can't do anything about anything here. I love that.

  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    At least he can't do anything about anything here. I love that.
    AMEN to that
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  13. #13
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    I call BS to this happening in reality with anything but a flash tune. I reset my maps out of the gas station and by the second pull the boost is up to E85 levels using auto tuning on JB4.

    Yes in this case, obviously it took a long time to mix... he was idling, not consuming fuel, soft throttle etc. You wouldn't use this to set a base map anyway. If you immediately switch an aggressive COBB map this could be an issue theoretically.

    I rip on it as soon as I get to the on ramp and quickly clear the 91 out of the line. When you're consuming 400-500hp of fuel all it takes is a pull or two.

    Also, how is that smooth curve from 10% ethanol up not sensor smoothing/lag? If this is a return less system as soon as the mix gets into the fuel line it should be at 50% or whatever % he set it to. Sensor detects mix by 420 which is 100 seconds after he starts driving it around below 3000 rpm.

  14. #14
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    Solid retweet Dz

  15. #15
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    he is marketing it on his website for single turbo 6AT guys as a "secret ATF fluid upgrade!". Click here to enlarge

    It's probably regular ATF mixed with some whale grease for extra smoothness, LOL Click here to enlarge Lord Voldermort at its finest.
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  16. #16
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    This doesn't happen very often from me but I applaud Shiv for this recent thread on e90. Thanks for the data, great contribution indeed and if only most posts were like this (i.e. zero hype) Click here to enlarge Thought I'd copy it over here to share...10mins for fuel to mix, very interesting stuff, what do you guys think?

    I recall seeing a fuel system diagram on the 1M with some extra lines to/from the tank and I'm not sure if its possibly a return-type fuel setup, doubt it though.
    Your hype meter is broken my friend, the idea here is that a flexfuel sensor allows dummie t00ners to have insta-flash abilities REQUIRED to properly run E85 like a pro - bunch of n00bs flashing at the pump, not waiting for 10 minutes and double clutching like they should...

  17. #17
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
    Your hype meter is broken my friend, the idea here is that a flexfuel sensor allows dummie t00ners to have insta-flash abilities REQUIRED to properly run E85 like a pro - bunch of n00bs flashing at the pump, not waiting for 10 minutes and double clutching like they should...
    Click here to enlarge i know but nonetheless its a good piece of data to see and i love data lol
    Click here to enlarge

  18. #18
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I gotta bow out of his thread, I feel a timeout coming on. I always picture my brother in law (also owns a 135i) reading his threads and telling me that he's scared of me tuning his car, he needs one of the flexyfuel things from vishnu. Otherwise, I'd just avoid his FS threads and look for relevant data reposted here.

  19. #19
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I came here to say I can't believe you got banned from e90post. I hate that forum more and more each day. I like selling things there, though! Oh, and the Florida section is nice...
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