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  1. #26
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So you are planning on getting the AEM box and having HPF consult? You seem pretty serious about doing this all yourself, AEM is the only way it will happen.
    Right now everything is just estimating, figuring and planning. I have to ultimately decide what will be the simplest and least expensive route to achieve my objective. The idea is to start out as complicated as possible then begin to scale back where the gains don't justify the expense.

    I'm wanting to go into territory that hasn't been explored much. This may be an incorrect statement, but I have yet to see a E46 M3 S/C'd car putting down over 650 WHP.. there is a glass ceiling I think many tuners have not explored because the cost to build begins to exceed any ability to recoup money in a mass production version.

    R&D can get expensive, but I think there has been enough done that I can piece together my own system.

  2. #27
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    I'm shooting for similar results. Props to you for undergoing this challenge! It's not an easy task!

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Right now everything is just estimating, figuring and planning. I have to ultimately decide what will be the simplest and least expensive route to achieve my objective. The idea is to start out as complicated as possible then begin to scale back where the gains don't justify the expense.

    I'm wanting to go into territory that hasn't been explored much. This may be an incorrect statement, but I have yet to see a E46 M3 S/C'd car putting down over 650 WHP.. there is a glass ceiling I think many tuners have not explored because the cost to build begins to exceed any ability to recoup money in a mass production version.

    R&D can get expensive, but I think there has been enough done that I can piece together my own system.
    You are correct, no one with an SC has exceeded 650 whp but I believe a guy in Australia may be close with nitrous.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    You guys realize with an SC its difficult because you cannot change boost. If you are trying to run 700whp and you are running pump gas, that wont be fun. Meth will help but you dont want to always be running 700whp with just pump/meth.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    You guys realize with an SC its difficult because you cannot change boost. If you are trying to run 700whp and you are running pump gas, that wont be fun. Meth will help but you dont want to always be running 700whp with just pump/meth.
    Well you can change boost, you just have to do it manually.

    I think he wants to do it with nitrous though, so it is possible.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well you can change boost, you just have to do it manually.

    I think he wants to do it with nitrous though, so it is possible.
    Whos going to change pulleys on the fly all the time?

    With nitrous you need race gas all the time. All this work to me a supercharger is not the right setup if you want big power.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Whos going to change pulleys on the fly all the time?

    With nitrous you need race gas all the time. All this work to me a supercharger is not the right setup if you want big power.
    You don't need racegas all the time but you should have it if the shot is big enough. If it is direct port, you don't need to worry about it, just introduce the race gas directly, problem solved.

    This guy has the technical skill to change the pulley when necessary if going for peak power. It really isn't that big of a deal just an inconvenience compared to turbo.

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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    With nitrous you need race gas all the time. All this work to me a supercharger is not the right setup if you want big power.
    Building a separate fuel system solves the race fuel issue. I practically run race fuel all the time anyway, this is not a DD, so that really isn't an issue. I don't want BIG power, I want linear adjustable power. The reason none of you BIG power turbo guys have cracked well into the 10's yet is because you have TOO MUCH power. Just like a bigger oil cooler is not always better than a more effective oil cooler, neither is big horsepower always the way to go.

    You build your power plant to work with your intended chassis.. not build a monster power plant and hope your chassis will work. I still firmly believe that current turbo applications for the M3 were built to achieve total HP numbers and were not tuned for more linear usable HP.

    Again it is different strokes for different folks.. if you want to boil the tires down in third gear going 45 MPH hey that is cool.. but it's not for me.

    My goal is to reach about 600-650 WHP on motor and then have the ability to add HP with nitrous. By using staged nitrous and progressive control I can eliminate much of the traction issues the turbo guys are experiencing. The reason for wanting a tunable EMS is so I can have maps for each level of nitrous I decide to use etc.. or use controllers in conjunction with the EMS.

    My last nitrous car was a 3,800 lbs behemoth of a car, a 1968 Coronet R/T. I had a very mild 440 ci motor, but we sprayed 500 HP of nitrous on it. The car ran 10.20's at 132 MPH on 10" M&H cheaters. My M3 is already putting as much down, if not more than my R/T did on motor.

    Bottom line, I'm a nitrous guy.. and turbo's and nitrous is something I just won't do.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Building a separate fuel system solves the race fuel issue. I practically run race fuel all the time anyway, this is not a DD, so that really isn't an issue. I don't want BIG power, I want linear adjustable power. The reason none of you BIG power turbo guys have cracked well into the 10's yet is because you have TOO MUCH power. Just like a bigger oil cooler is not always better than a more effective oil cooler, neither is big horsepower always the way to go.

    You build your power plant to work with your intended chassis.. not build a monster power plant and hope your chassis will work. I still firmly believe that current turbo applications for the M3 were built to achieve total HP numbers and were not tuned for more linear usable HP.

    Again it is different strokes for different folks.. if you want to boil the tires down in third gear going 45 MPH hey that is cool.. but it's not for me.

    My goal is to reach about 600-650 WHP on motor and then have the ability to add HP with nitrous. By using staged nitrous and progressive control I can eliminate much of the traction issues the turbo guys are experiencing. The reason for wanting a tunable EMS is so I can have maps for each level of nitrous I decide to use etc.. or use controllers in conjunction with the EMS.

    My last nitrous car was a 3,800 lbs behemoth of a car, a 1968 Coronet R/T. I had a very mild 440 ci motor, but we sprayed 500 HP of nitrous on it. The car ran 10.20's at 132 MPH on 10" M&H cheaters. My M3 is already putting as much down, if not more than my R/T did on motor.

    Bottom line, I'm a nitrous guy.. and turbo's and nitrous is something I just won't do.
    They have new progressive nitrous controllers that detect wheel spin and adjust based on it, you don't need separate maps.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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  10. #35
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    Many of the people that attempted a separate fuel system for their nitrous system ran into huge hurdles/problems and abandoned the idea, I believe AA was one of them in fact.

    The power delivery of the turbo has nothing to do with why no one has hit 10's with them. I got 100% full traction at the strip. It's the launch, and that has more to do with the tire and suspension that the power...

    It'll be very interesting if/when you make 650rwhp and try to go for 10's and realize that it's really not as easy as you are making it out to be. Not saying it's not possible, but you are really wrong about why no one has done it yet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    Many of the people that attempted a separate fuel system for their nitrous system ran into huge hurdles/problems and abandoned the idea, I believe AA was one of them in fact.

    The power delivery of the turbo has nothing to do with why no one has hit 10's with them. I got 100% full traction at the strip. It's the launch, and that has more to do with the tire and suspension that the power...

    It'll be very interesting if/when you make 650rwhp and try to go for 10's and realize that it's really not as easy as you are making it out to be. Not saying it's not possible, but you are really wrong about why no one has done it yet.
    Uh, how so? Direct port systems have been done and work fine, they deliver fuel.

    You are right about the traction and suspension, although what he is saying it is harder to launch with a turbo curve. That does not mean it can't be done, many people do it in the domestic,import world all the time.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    It'll be very interesting if/when you make 650rwhp and try to go for 10's and realize that it's really not as easy as you are making it out to be. Not saying it's not possible, but you are really wrong about why no one has done it yet.
    I will need to put down more than 650 WHP to run 10's. I'm expecting closer to 800-850 WHP.. but I'm doing it with progressive two stage nitrous.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    Many of the people that attempted a separate fuel system for their nitrous system ran into huge hurdles/problems and abandoned the idea, I believe AA was one of them in fact.
    Well.. all the more reason I'm doing the install myself. I won't have any issues building a separate fuel system. I've done it for several cars now. I'll use the same components I've always used from Mallory, Barry Grant and Earls.. I'll put a little 2 gallon fuel cell in the trunk, plumb it forward and build a system that can flow a dependable 4.5 psi at the nozzle.

    It's not rocket science to build a nitrous fuel system.. you need a fuel cell, filter, pump, lines, regulator w/return. With the ignition on and the car on a battery charger, you flow the system to 6 psi.. then tune down based on your AFR's.

    These guys http://www.coldfusionn2o.com/ are literally a few blocks away from my house.. I can get all the technical and fabrication support I could ever need. I don't have a lot of experience with BMW, I will admit that, but I have worked with nitrous on over a dozen different cars now..

  13. #38
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    ^ Why would you need 800-850 whp to run 10's? You can do 10's with 500 whp with the right tires and launch. 800+ and you better be in the 9's.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Couple of facts im gonna post. I dont feel like quoting people.

    Firstly, AA tunes the factory DME in real time, they actually do not need to flash it all the time if they have the car there. This is one way they effectively create tunes for their production kits. Of course this type of software is not available for us, dont we all wish though....

    Secondly, do you guys not realive ive done roughly everything stated here. I know some guys are new with their S54's here but i did the supercharger and nitrous thing for awhile... One things for sure, nitrous is annoying. These are BMW's, not straight up drag cars. Im reading someone wants to back half the car, really? That would be sick, but I would 100% do a turbo setup on a dedicated drag car. Do Supra's run a supercharger and nitrous, hell no. Our motor is basically a better version of the 2JZ.

    If anyone has the balls enough to go to ATCO or MIR, activate 2 step/anti lag on their S54, stick on MT ET's (not drag radials) and run the 1/4 mile they can run blisteringly quick times. Fact is none of our E46 M3's are setup to drag, not even mine. I will take a crack at a 1/4 mile one day, i am planning to get my tuner down here to get my anti lag, 2 step and flat shift activated for it.

    Just keep in mind ive had several setups on my S54, N/A mods, supercharger, nitrous, built motor turbo etc... Unless i wanted a road racing track car, i would get nothing but a turbo on my car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Couple of facts im gonna post. I dont feel like quoting people.

    Firstly, AA tunes the factory DME in real time, they actually do not need to flash it all the time if they have the car there. This is one way they effectively create tunes for their production kits. Of course this type of software is not available for us, dont we all wish though....

    Secondly, do you guys not realive ive done roughly everything stated here. I know some guys are new with their S54's here but i did the supercharger and nitrous thing for awhile... One things for sure, nitrous is annoying. These are BMW's, not straight up drag cars. Im reading someone wants to back half the car, really? That would be sick, but I would 100% do a turbo setup on a dedicated drag car. Do Supra's run a supercharger and nitrous, hell no. Our motor is basically a better version of the 2JZ.

    If anyone has the balls enough to go to ATCO or MIR, activate 2 step/anti lag on their S54, stick on MT ET's (not drag radials) and run the 1/4 mile they can run blisteringly quick times. Fact is none of our E46 M3's are setup to drag, not even mine. I will take a crack at a 1/4 mile one day, i am planning to get my tuner down here to get my anti lag, 2 step and flat shift activated for it.

    Just keep in mind ive had several setups on my S54, N/A mods, supercharger, nitrous, built motor turbo etc... Unless i wanted a road racing track car, i would get nothing but a turbo on my car.
    Supras do run nitrous with their large turbos though...

    You guys just need to run a freaking bias-ply drag tire, give that a shot before getting all elaborate. It just takes someone with the right tire setup, track, and launching skill. There is no magic to it, you don't need a 2-step, anti-lag, etc.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Supras do run nitrous with their large turbos though...

    You guys just need to run a freaking bias-ply drag tire, give that a shot before getting all elaborate. It just takes someone with the right tire setup, track, and launching skill. There is no magic to it, you don't need a 2-step, anti-lag, etc.
    Of course they use nitrous. Most dont need it but the very large turbo guys use nitrous to spool the turbo low end. Almost all Supra's mainly use very aggressive anti lag to jump at the launch. We are more afraid to do this because we drive BMW's!! Its doable, i might try it. Click here to enlarge

    Sticky, you dont realize for the best ET you need to launch hard. Any type of bogging and you are done. You cannot launch hard with a big turbo, you need to pre spool it. That is why we see Mike Radowskis and BMWsob's BMW's run 9's. They both make similar power to my car, actually my car makes more. They both use anti lag. Simply put you wont get your turbo cars best ET without it. Of course you cannot use anti lag with a supercharger.

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    Sticky i have used a bias ply tire, not at the track but on the street. Definitely big mistake on the street.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Of course they use nitrous. Most dont need it but the very large turbo guys use nitrous to spool the turbo low end. Almost all Supra's mainly use very aggressive anti lag to jump at the launch. We are more afraid to do this because we drive BMW's!! Its doable, i might try it. Click here to enlarge

    Sticky, you dont realize for the best ET you need to launch hard. Any type of bogging and you are done. You cannot launch hard with a big turbo, you need to pre spool it. That is why we see Mike Radowskis and BMWsob's BMW's run 9's. They both make similar power to my car, actually my car makes more. They both use anti lag. Simply put you wont get your turbo cars best ET without it. Of course you cannot use anti lag with a supercharger.
    Haha, what the hell do you mean I don't realize for best ET you need to launch hard? I was launching at 6200 rpm my friend Click here to enlarge

    You can take several different approaches, you can use a line lock and build boost at the line, you can do anti-lag, you can use nitrous to spool you off the line, etc. Either way, what has been stopping you guys is the bad launches.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Sticky i have used a bias ply tire, not at the track but on the street. Definitely big mistake on the street.
    Gigantic mistake on the street, how was it?

    Definitely great for the track, I don't know why no one uses it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Gigantic mistake on the street, how was it?

    Definitely great for the track, I don't know why no one uses it.
    No traction unless you heat them up with a big burn out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I will need to put down more than 650 WHP to run 10's. I'm expecting closer to 800-850 WHP.. but I'm doing it with progressive two stage nitrous.



    Well.. all the more reason I'm doing the install myself. I won't have any issues building a separate fuel system. I've done it for several cars now. I'll use the same components I've always used from Mallory, Barry Grant and Earls.. I'll put a little 2 gallon fuel cell in the trunk, plumb it forward and build a system that can flow a dependable 4.5 psi at the nozzle.

    It's not rocket science to build a nitrous fuel system.. you need a fuel cell, filter, pump, lines, regulator w/return. With the ignition on and the car on a battery charger, you flow the system to 6 psi.. then tune down based on your AFR's.

    These guys http://www.coldfusionn2o.com/ are literally a few blocks away from my house.. I can get all the technical and fabrication support I could ever need. I don't have a lot of experience with BMW, I will admit that, but I have worked with nitrous on over a dozen different cars now..
    I'm not saying it's not possible, just giving you a heads up that people ran into problems, don't know what, but obviously enough for them to forfeit the idea. Maybe try to find JMWEB and talk to him along with the guys at AA and JTejero.

    For about a 8 month period when I was dealing with VF and that whole saga, I had the exact same goals you have right now. I wanted to go with a standalone along with a DP meth and nitrous setup, so a part of me really wants to see you succeed with this and see what you can get out of it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Couple of facts im gonna post. I dont feel like quoting people.

    Firstly, AA tunes the factory DME in real time, they actually do not need to flash it all the time if they have the car there. This is one way they effectively create tunes for their production kits. Of course this type of software is not available for us, dont we all wish though....

    Secondly, do you guys not realive ive done roughly everything stated here. I know some guys are new with their S54's here but i did the supercharger and nitrous thing for awhile... One things for sure, nitrous is annoying. These are BMW's, not straight up drag cars. Im reading someone wants to back half the car, really? That would be sick, but I would 100% do a turbo setup on a dedicated drag car. Do Supra's run a supercharger and nitrous, hell no. Our motor is basically a better version of the 2JZ.

    If anyone has the balls enough to go to ATCO or MIR, activate 2 step/anti lag on their S54, stick on MT ET's (not drag radials) and run the 1/4 mile they can run blisteringly quick times. Fact is none of our E46 M3's are setup to drag, not even mine. I will take a crack at a 1/4 mile one day, i am planning to get my tuner down here to get my anti lag, 2 step and flat shift activated for it.

    Just keep in mind ive had several setups on my S54, N/A mods, supercharger, nitrous, built motor turbo etc... Unless i wanted a road racing track car, i would get nothing but a turbo on my car.
    Very well said.

    I am going to talk to HPF about hopefully setting up some kind of anti-lag

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    I wanted to go with a standalone along with a DP meth and nitrous setup, so a part of me really wants to see you succeed with this and see what you can get out of it.
    Right now I'm just planning it out, listening to the advice being given.. and yes I am listening to what you guys are saying, I'm just stubborn. When all is said and done its really going to boil down to money which as of right now I don't have a clear budget. By this Fall however I should know where my budget is at and by that time hopefully I will be an expert. I spend a couple of hours a day researching this stuff. I will admit, unlike the domestics and other imports, there is just very little available information on these S54's. Playing around with these motors can be cost prohibitive. Even though I wouldn't do anything differently, I sometimes think about the money I have spent so far and what that would have gotten me with another car lol..

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    You know you don't have to build your motor to get more power right? Take it one step at a time, it will be more cost and time efficient and IMO it's more fun to move up in power in stages...

    Why don't you keep the motor stock, get a standalone and run a DP shot of nitrous? You can have a race gas tune when your off the bottle and prob make around 550rwhp, then have a tune for the bottle. Have fun with this, then later you can build the motor or if things go wrong and you blow it...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Right now I'm just planning it out, listening to the advice being given.. and yes I am listening to what you guys are saying, I'm just stubborn. When all is said and done its really going to boil down to money which as of right now I don't have a clear budget. By this Fall however I should know where my budget is at and by that time hopefully I will be an expert. I spend a couple of hours a day researching this stuff. I will admit, unlike the domestics and other imports, there is just very little available information on these S54's. Playing around with these motors can be cost prohibitive. Even though I wouldn't do anything differently, I sometimes think about the money I have spent so far and what that would have gotten me with another car lol..
    Nothing wrong with being stubborn, do your thing. We like just like talking cars, M3's especially Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    You know you don't have to build your motor to get more power right? Take it one step at a time, it will be more cost and time efficient and IMO it's more fun to move up in power in stages...

    Why don't you keep the motor stock, get a standalone and run a DP shot of nitrous? You can have a race gas tune when your off the bottle and prob make around 550rwhp, then have a tune for the bottle. Have fun with this, then later you can build the motor or if things go wrong and you blow it...
    You have been following my threads right? I'm already putting down 503 WHP and that was done on a day when it was 95+ ambient. There is no point building a nitrous system with my current setup.. $#@! will break and it would most likely be a piston land. There is also no need to add a standalone right now when I can get to 600 easy by just switching to a T-Trim and adding a few more pounds of boost. I'm already preforming the prerequisite mods to get me to 550+ and upgrade to a T-Trim and that thread is here.

    The nitrous and standalone will be added after I build the motor. I'm nearing my maximum limit to what I can do on a stock block. I wouldn't dare run the amount of nitrous I am intending on a stock block with 10+ PSI of boost.

    Currently, but things could change, the plan is to build a 8.6:1 motor, run 16-18 PSI boost and use 150+ nitrous. If I run standalone versus piggy back I will probably delete the VANOS.

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