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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    And I'm not trying to make anyone agree with my side. I'd just like to see a little more parity in the threads here.
    Definitely doing a good job providing another viewpoint.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Wow, do you guys realize this has an ethanol content sensor and hoses to make it plug and play? And the $1700 price included the Procede Rev 3. Not trying to be a Procede fanboy, but take a step back and look at what is being offered. You can use any ethanol content you want without changing tunes. $100 for a reflash is cheap compared to what tuners charge to reflash an MSS54.
    Obviously it doesn't have the sensor and additional hardware, but you can currently just pump any combination of E85 up to a 50% mix in and use map 5 on the JB4 for free, with it adjusting boost accordingly. Not saying this isn't a cool feature to have, but at $900 for the hardware and reflash, plus having to ship your ECU, this seems like a product that is not something many people will want. On that other forum, people are already saying ouch once the price was announced. I'm not well versed on the proceed, but can you do the same thing the JB4 can already, with pumping a mix and letting it take care of the rest?
    Current: 2012 CTS-V - stock for now
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  3. #28
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    It's a good idea by shiv but the price seems retarded, I can't see many people jumping on this
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by b00st Click here to enlarge
    Obviously it doesn't have the sensor and additional hardware, but you can currently just pump any combination of E85 up to a 50% mix in and use map 5 on the JB4 for free, with it adjusting boost accordingly. Not saying this isn't a cool feature to have, but at $900 for the hardware and reflash, plus having to ship your ECU, this seems like a product that is not something many people will want. On that other forum, people are already saying ouch once the price was announced. I'm not well versed on the proceed, but can you do the same thing the JB4 can already, with pumping a mix and letting it take care of the rest?
    To be fair, both forms of auto tuning are reactive. A knock event has to occur before it reactively cuts boost. It will continue to add boost until timing drops out and it will cut boost again. I have experience with the JB4 auto tuning, where I disabled it. It detects flatline as knock and since this isn't boost related (I'd flatline at 13 psi On metH which is conservative) will continue to cut boost. It also detects traction related timing drops as knock as well which it isn't.

    Not to knock the JB4, I used it with CPS and worked well. The auto tuning feature though I am not a fan of not does it work well.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    It's a good idea by shiv but the price seems retarded, I can't see many people jumping on this
    I see terry making an input available for JB4 users to enjoy this very soon. It appears easy enough to implement.

  6. #31
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    Way too overpriced.

  7. #32
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    pretty cool but whoa $$$$
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    AEM guys have been doing the same thing with used GM flex fuel sensors. It's a simple 0-5v output. It'd be great if Terry integrated this into the JB4. You can find those sensors for 100 bucks.
    Last edited by Myaddiction; 08-10-2012 at 09:24 PM. Reason: correction

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    It's a good idea by shiv but the price seems retarded, I can't see many people jumping on this
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

    Typically, you can get this sensor new for $290-360. Connector is usually about $30 extra. Making fuel lines will cost you another $40-50 with proper terminations. A halfway decent bracket another $20 and some time. So you are looking at $400 for hardware costs alone.

    The extra $395 gets you DME reflash and everything necessary make it PnP. This might be too much for some people on this forum. Maybe even those who have spend that much (or more) for a static custom tune and are making far less power with more mods. These folks may very well be happy with less power and the need to run weaker, carefully controlled e85 mixes.

    However, this product is for others who want more power and more flexibility. E85 is a wonderful thing when you take full advantage of it. And by that, i mean running 19-20psi of boost with an AFR of ~12.4-12.5:1 and a timing curve of 12deg ramping up to 15-16deg, while still keeping fuel trims low.

    Shiv

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    What about the guys who want to fill up and go? Guys who spend time on track driving their cars closer and closer to the limit, poring over instructor notes and data, not wanting to go over engine data logs?

    I'm just asking people to see it from a different perspective, one where people either don't have the know-how to tune their own E85 maps or don't want to mess with changing maps if they're stuck with no ethanol available. It's fine to be all technically up-to-date and be able to DIY, but you guys are a minority in that aspect, ESPECIALLY in the BMW world. Ever hang out at a BMW CCA gathering?

    $900 for a flex fuel sender and hardware to hook it up isn't that expensive for the ability to run whatever blend you have available/want and just DRIVE. The fastest pro race driver's I've ever worked with (save one) don't give a damn what you did to the setup to make the car handle better, they just wanted an improvement in X so they can cut a faster lap. A lot of my customers (actually, probably none) won't deal with custom-modifying their maps to run a specific blend of ethanol, and there would be no way to sell it to them if they knew they'd have to do it on their own. Doesn't make them stupid, they're just not interested in doing that part themselves.

    I have to agree with James on this one. I really don't care about glory runs on the dyno or down the quarter mile strip. I only care about driveability, predictability and consistency. That's why I've been preaching for over 2 years now GIAC and have been constantly pushing for Cobb to pay attention to their boost control and throttle closures. In the end, a less powerful but more consistent car will always dominate the more powerful but less consistent car on the road coarse.

    Speaking from personal point of view, I am not going to sit at the gas station and begin calculations about how much ethanol I am putting in and hoping that the map I created with ATR will be sufficient. Cobb themselves refuse to release general purpose E85 maps because E85 fuel varies so much from gas station to gas station. Well, if E85 indeed varies that much, then what makes you think that the same gas station will have consistent fuel throughout the summer months? A map that you make now may not work 3 months from now even though you are fueling at the same location. Are you seriously going to be logging your engine every single time you put E85 in it, hoping that it is running as expected?

    For me E85 blending falls in the same bucket as methanol injection when it comes to unpredicatability and unreliability. I simply cannot be bothered to open up laptops every time I want to put gas in my car. I'd rather drive the car instead.
    Last edited by vasillalov; 08-11-2012 at 12:12 AM.
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  11. #36
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    2 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    I see terry making an input available for JB4 users to enjoy this very soon. It appears easy enough to implement.
    So it's ok for Terry to copy but when Dzenno comes out with a better catch can Terry has a $#@! fit. I guess Terry is the only copy cat allowed on this platform.

    Funny stuff quote Terry "Dzenno if you copy me I'm gonna drop my price even loose money to stop sales of your copy cat product ". Dzenno " WTF you copy $#@! all day long". Everyone else really Terry dont throw rocks if you live in a glass house. LOL just thought this was funny.

    But hey if you don't like the pprice don't buy it. Either way it's a good addition to the platform.
    Last edited by Sikh335; 08-11-2012 at 12:24 AM.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

    Typically, you can get this sensor new for $290-360. Connector is usually about $30 extra. Making fuel lines will cost you another $40-50 with proper terminations. A halfway decent bracket another $20 and some time. So you are looking at $400 for hardware costs alone.

    The extra $395 gets you DME reflash and everything necessary make it PnP. This might be too much for some people on this forum. Maybe even those who have spend that much (or more) for a static custom tune and are making far less power with more mods. These folks may very well be happy with less power and the need to run weaker, carefully controlled e85 mixes.

    However, this product is for others who want more power and more flexibility. E85 is a wonderful thing when you take full advantage of it. And by that, i mean running 19-20psi of boost with an AFR of ~12.4-12.5:1 and a timing curve of 12deg ramping up to 15-16deg, while still keeping fuel trims low.

    Shiv
    Serious question, what percentage of your end user base has a rev3? I surmise most of them have rev2a/b or rev 2.5, thus severely limiting those who "only" have to pay $795... plus shipping. With that said, one would need a rev3 upgrade ($300-400) alongside your release, raising the cost of entry.

    Furthermore, as I told @JamesM3M5, you can enjoy the benefits of E85 for FREE with your existing tune if you are advanced enough to add 3+6. Heck, they can enjoy it with the Procede as-is without any additional assistance.

    But yeah, most of the N54 community can't be bothered to do that now, can they?

    But can you answer me two questions?

    1. If you have access to the fuel pressure tables, what benefit is there letting the Procede add it... other than marketing the Procede look better than it really is.
    2. You expect your userbase to know how to mix a 75/25 mixture of methanol and distilled water but market based on the assumption they can't mix E85/pump the same way?

    I suppose if you created a methanol mixer, you could get away with selling one of those for $495 + shipping with the same marketing approach.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
    So it's ok for Terry to copy but when Dzenno comes out with a better catch can Terry has a $#@! fit. I guess Terry is the only copy cat allowed on this platform.

    Funny stuff quote Terry "Dzenno if you copy me I'm gonna drop my price even loose money to stop sales of your copy cat product ". Dzenno " WTF you copy $#@! all day long". Everyone else really Terry dont throw rocks if you live in a glass house. LOL just thought this was funny.

    But hey if you don't like the pprice don't buy it. Either way it's a good addition to the platform.
    That appears to be the plan, sir.

  14. #39
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
    So it's ok for Terry to copy but when Dzenno comes out with a better catch can Terry has a $#@! fit. I guess Terry is the only copy cat allowed on this platform.

    Funny stuff quote Terry "Dzenno if you copy me I'm gonna drop my price even loose money to stop sales of your copy cat product ". Dzenno " WTF you copy $#@! all day long". Everyone else really Terry dont throw rocks if you live in a glass house. LOL just thought this was funny.

    But hey if you don't like the pprice don't buy it. Either way it's a good addition to the platform.
    That kind of rock-throwing is probably not good, especially considering your already tainted standing here and even on the more pro-Vishnu forum. I wouldn't call adding a sensor and functionality copying. Ideas/concepts are always copied, emulated, etc, but the beef with the other thread was due to a direct physical duplication. That is water under the bridge and not appropriate for this thread.

    However I do not see the JB producing the same results alone. The CPS offsetting in the Procede sounds like it works better than the JB (can the JB advance timing via CPS?), and timing is one of the most important reasons why ethanol makes more power. People can stack the JB and Cobb to get the same results, but still don't get full control over timing, boost, and ethanol content monitoring that the Procede/FF solution offers. I have a feeling that there are significant gains left behind when simply adding some E85 to the tank and running a more aggressive OTS tune is employed.
    James Muskopf
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    The vishnu flex fuel thing is VERY cool from a techie perspective. Giving credit where it's due, integrating a fully self-adjusting tune solution for ethanol content is pretty slick. Do people "need" it..? Hellz no, but I'm sure 80% of it's sales will be from those scared or unwilling to just let trims handle low mixes and run a prescribed map. This is why god invented ATR with 100% E85 capability on the 9th day though, and really this is pulling people further down the hardware rabbit hole. $#@!ing around with E85 mixes is just an artifact of not being inherently able (software and hardware alike) to use it straight up. Like ladies mixing vodka with fruit juice.

    @dzenno, no I haven't continued my quest for higher mixtures - I'm running 50/50 now which basically allows for negligent tuning when it comes to advance. I'm sure my LPFP isn't up to snuff but it's doing the job at 50% so when it fails, I'll replace and continue my quest. Sick of double pumping.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
    So it's ok for Terry to copy but when Dzenno comes out with a better catch can Terry has a $#@! fit. I guess Terry is the only copy cat allowed on this platform.

    Funny stuff quote Terry "Dzenno if you copy me I'm gonna drop my price even loose money to stop sales of your copy cat product ". Dzenno " WTF you copy $#@! all day long". Everyone else really Terry dont throw rocks if you live in a glass house. LOL just thought this was funny.

    But hey if you don't like the pprice don't buy it. Either way it's a good addition to the platform.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Serious question, what percentage of your end user base has a rev3? I surmise most of them have rev2a/b or rev 2.5, thus severely limiting those who "only" have to pay $795... plus shipping. With that said, one would need a rev3 upgrade ($300-400) alongside your release, raising the cost of entry.
    We get it. You think it's overpriced. Put it to rest. Others will see the value and have the opposite opinion.

    Furthermore, as I told @JamesM3M5 , you can enjoy the benefits of E85 for FREE with your existing tune if you are advanced enough to add 3+6. Heck, they can enjoy it with the Procede as-is without any additional assistance.
    Only the most rudimentary benefits. You don't exploit full benefits of ethanol by simply adding some and watching your logs look slightly better with fewer / no timing corrections.

    But yeah, most of the N54 community can't be bothered to do that now, can they?
    Anyone who wants to run ethanol will eventually have to pull up to more than one pump. How does this help your arguement? Will they also want to check logs and update maps if their E-concentration changes?

    But can you answer me two questions?

    1. If you have access to the fuel pressure tables, what benefit is there letting the Procede add it... other than marketing the Procede look better than it really is.
    2. You expect your userbase to know how to mix a 75/25 mixture of methanol and distilled water but market based on the assumption they can't mix E85/pump the same way?
    That would make 3 questions (i.e. how many Rev 3s?)
    1) My guess is you're oversimplifying and are do not know what exactly is changed in the ECU flash update. No more fuel pressure codes. No more lean codes from higher concentrations of ethanol and bolt-ons or upgraded turbos. And still retain the ability to run zero to very high ethanol while allowing the piggy to alter timing, fuel and boost on the fly based on the E-content sensor.

    2) Mixing methanol takes a gallon jug and a quart measuring jar. Mixing E85 and gasoline results in surprisingly large variances in actual ethanol concentration. Shiv posted he used a 50/50 mix, and the Siemens sensor reported 60% instead of the assumed 48%. Was the E85 lower than 85% or the pump gas higher than 10%? Who knows?

    I suppose if you created a methanol mixer, you could get away with selling one of those for $495 + shipping with the same marketing approach.
    Wow, you argue like an angry teenager trying to prove something to his parents sometimes.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
    ... Do people "need" it..? Hellz no, but I'm sure 80% of it's sales will be from those scared or unwilling to just let trims handle low mixes and run a prescribed map...
    Isn't this akin to the arguements from the flash crowd against the JB4 - e.g. just let the ECU take care of timing while the piggy increases boost and makes the ECU think it's running lean and pushes more fuel.

    Tune an ATR map to 50/50 mix and if you don't have your laptop and have to fill up on a trip, just let the ECU handle the trims and hope you don't have too much timing for pump gas?
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Isn't this akin to the arguements from the flash crowd against the JB4 - e.g. just let the ECU take care of timing while the piggy increases boost and makes the ECU think it's running lean and pushes more fuel.

    Tune an ATR map to 50/50 mix and if you don't have your laptop and have to fill up on a trip, just let the ECU handle the trims and hope you don't have too much timing for pump gas?
    Well I have been running E85 mixes for almost 1,5 years on a FBO 335i with and without meth.

    And I tried running anything from 20-50% E85, since changing maps on the jb4 is done on the fly using the steering wheel controls it is easy enough for anyone. And on the meth map I can even fine tune the additive while driving. So going on road trips never been an issue.

    And if you think stopping at 2 pumps are to complicated, will you be comfortable removing your ECU?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Isn't this akin to the arguements from the flash crowd against the JB4 - e.g. just let the ECU take care of timing while the piggy increases boost and makes the ECU think it's running lean and pushes more fuel.

    Tune an ATR map to 50/50 mix and if you don't have your laptop and have to fill up on a trip, just let the ECU handle the trims and hope you don't have too much timing for pump gas?
    That's when I switch to my pump gas map smarty pants Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    Well I have been running E85 mixes for almost 1,5 years on a FBO 335i with and without meth.

    And I tried running anything from 20-50% E85, since changing maps on the jb4 is done on the fly using the steering wheel controls it is easy enough for anyone. And on the meth map I can even fine tune the additive while driving. So going on road trips never been an issue.

    And if you think stopping at 2 pumps are to complicated, will you be comfortable removing your ECU?
    1) The JB can't advance timing where you will see much more significant power gains than simply putting some E85 in the tank and running a more aggressive map.

    2) Yeah, stopping at 2 pumps is complicated. You do realize that I'm PRO Ethanol, and when I want to use it I'd have to stop at 2 pumps, so what? So how does that make me stupid? Too stupid to be comfortable removing an ECU? Please. I know you don't know me, so I will assume you also don't know what I do for a living or have invested my life doing.

    What if the closest E85 is a 30 minute trip out of my way? What if I'm on a road trip and don't want/need E85 to cruise down the highway? What if there are significant gains to be had from timing advance that the stock ECU + JB4 can't offer on very high E-concentration? What happens on a Cobb ATR map previously tuned for high ethanol is used when no E85 stations are around? Have to pull out the AP and switch back to a different map? No problem, sure, but still not exactly convenient.

    These are the questions to ask.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
    That's when I switch to my pump gas map smarty pants Click here to enlarge
    Yes, of course. The only big disadvantage to the AP is that you can't switch maps on the fly. Not a dealbreaker by any means, just less than convenient.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Yes, of course. The only big disadvantage to the AP is that you can't switch maps on the fly. Not a dealbreaker by any means, just less than convenient.
    Agreed, but not with the adjective "big". Please talk in starbucks. The reflash is about 90 seconds and I do it whilst pumping the gas we speak of when necessary, so I classify this as a grande disadvantage, not a venti.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Tune an ATR map to 50/50 mix and if you don't have your laptop and have to fill up on a trip, just let the ECU handle the trims and hope you don't have too much timing for pump gas?
    Are you aware that you can put an ATR map on your Access Port? Mine is always in the car with my ATR maps and a few OTS maps. I can always just flash back to an OTS map if I don't have a 91 octane ATR map handy. I haven't even used a laptop yet in my ATR experimentation.

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    It's brilliant. There is a select group of people willing to throw money at him to buy whatever overpriced solution he is selling. He's be a fool not to keep that gravy train rolling. Click here to enlarge

    In so far as the $800 flex fuel sensor system, while the data is useful, I don't see it as being any more useful than ignition advance and fuel trim trends when autotuning E85. I think for $150 I could justify a sensor, which BTW their Rev2 hardware can read just as easily as their Rev3 hardware, but given the high price and risk associated with messing around with fuel lines, I think the negatives outweigh the positives. For a basic E85 autolearning system I think we've proven the JB4 is quite capable without the extra cost and install headaches of a flex fuel sensor. But if anyone ever wants to connect one there is an extra analog input on the G4 board which can accommodate it. And many extra analog inputs on the G5 board.

    With regard to the flash tune, it does makes fuel management with heavier E85 mixes a lot easier. Although the way he's programmed it the car will be incapable of running a "stock map" with the procede removed, since his base flash is 13psi with too rich air/fuel ratios, and the idea of shipping DME's around to load his flash is very outdated and impractical. I'm biased but I much prefer our solution. We've developed the back end flash map using the Cobb AP platform, which allows customers to load the map from the convince of their driveway. Oh, and unload it too, should the need arise. And by investing in the Cobb platform they are not limited to maps we might provide for them. Not to mention have resale value and flexibility.

    I also noticed a lot of marketing time spent on CPS advance. I guess that is directed in our direction? I don't really get it though. First I've found 14 degrees to be more than adequate to produce the 420rw+ figures he is touting. We've made 440rw without meth @ 14 degrees. But say you want 16 degrees. Why not just flash a 16 degree map to the DME and then use CPS to offset from that when you need less? Not really a big deal? And our hardware supports CPS advance anyway. We just don't have it implemented in production firmware.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 08-11-2012 at 03:10 AM.
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