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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    Procede Flex fuel system

    Vishu just posted up a thread on their new Flex fuel system. It looks pretty neat and is a cool set up tech wise. However it's almost 1700$ and it dynos at 425 rwhp. I just dynoed at 405rwhp for my 500$ JB4 running a 50/50 mix. I can see where the Procede system up has significant feature advantages but I don't see how useful those features really are for the average guy running E85 on stock turbos. At least not maybe 1200$ dollars worth.

    Not to start a argument but I'd like to know more about it. Am I missing something?

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    Pure money grab. Fuel trims exist for a reason. More fear mongering by our favorite marketer.

    And I guarantee he won't be able to run 100% E85 without some unpleasant side effects. If you're going to be toying in the 30-60% mixture range the closed loop system with the appropriate scalar will handle as needed. A 10% variance in mixture will not cause catastrophic failure as he is trying to paint the picture of.

    It appears more and more the procede is becoming less of a tune and more of a fancy boost/meth/file fuel doohickey controller since it requires a flash lol.

    Few other comments : procede has open loop fueling which enhances the flashes fuel capabilities? There's a table for that, it's called fuel pressure. Why use CPS which kinda works when you can reflash the timing table yourself?

    PS: I bet shiv is kicking himself for releasing public E85 maps which do the same thing as his fancy $795 flex fuel kit + reflash. And it's rev3 only so he alienated 80% of his user base... Unless you spend another 300-400 to upgrade to rev3.

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    Great marketing...In practice, if you'll be mixing anyways ~35% is about tops you'll EVER need out of E85+pump to clean up timing corrections and get aggressive with timing. For those with access to E85 the true win would come from not mixing at all and running 100% but given @Dfv2 's testing on 100% its not looking promising given stock fuel system hardware. @Dfv2 , have you gone back to try higher mixes?

    Oh, and WAY overpriced, dear lord! BMW Taxman grabbing for the last straw it seems, sad

    EDIT: One thing really comical is seeing "VishnuFlash" in his marketing now Click here to enlarge And stacking tunes eh Shiv? Where's @Sikh335 to parrot after you saying its bad to stack them? Or is he now parrotting saying let's stack tunes? LOL Funny company that Vishnu Performance lol
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 08-10-2012 at 05:22 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    I will be interested when someone tells me we can run full E85. Until then, that is a waste of money for something that other tuning options are already basically doing, with no additional hardware.
    Current: 2012 CTS-V - stock for now
    Past: 2009 135i 6MT - JB4, bolt ons, meth, E85

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    Apparently BrianMN runs 100% E85 but it's not clear if that is with meth or not. He's also running a base flash map underneath so its not all piggy only.

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    Wow, do you guys realize this has an ethanol content sensor and hoses to make it plug and play? And the $1700 price included the Procede Rev 3. Not trying to be a Procede fanboy, but take a step back and look at what is being offered. You can use any ethanol content you want without changing tunes. $100 for a reflash is cheap compared to what tuners charge to reflash an MSS54.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    If BrianMN is running 100% E85 without changing the HPFP or the LPFP that'd be great news.

    @JamesM3M5 , still way too overpriced IMHO. He's wiring in an extra analog signal back to the procede and rescaling. He's already had that input available and he's getting a voltage back to rescale maps with. How is this worth $900 on top of the price of a procede?!? He can reuse his methanol logic in CPS offsetting for it entirely. Its not new stuff. The flexfuel sensor is new but everything to support is old/existing functionality.
    Click here to enlarge

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    I currently exercising tremendous amounts of will power in an attempt to restrain myself from exploding on E90post on all the Shiv threads. ... And WTF is with the Vishnu/FFTEC thread titles when there is not a single piece of FFTEC in there. The only thing FFTEC did for Lord Voldermort was to design and manufacture exhaust manifold...
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Wow, do you guys realize this has an ethanol content sensor and hoses to make it plug and play? And the $1700 price included the Procede Rev 3. Not trying to be a Procede fanboy, but take a step back and look at what is being offered. You can use any ethanol content you want without changing tunes. $100 for a reflash is cheap compared to what tuners charge to reflash an MSS54.
    The point is, you can save 895 dollars, not have to mail your ecu out and still happily run E85 without all this fancy hardware. A granularl difference in E85 content across pumps can be adjusted by the STFTs. Many have proven this even before the E85 marketing boom.

    Think about this: different variations methanol content didn't cause catastrophic damage. Same way closed loop fueling will save your ass for variations in corn content. All marketing guys.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    I currently exercising tremendous amounts of will power in an attempt to restrain myself from exploding on E90post on all the Shiv threads. ... And WTF is with the Vishnu/FFTEC thread titles when there is not a single piece of FFTEC in there. The only thing FFTEC did for Lord Voldermort was to design and manufacture exhaust manifold...
    Its called free ad space Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The point is, you can save 895 dollars, not have to mail your ecu out and still happily run E85 without all this fancy hardware. A granularl difference in E85 content across pumps can be adjusted by the STFTs. Many have proven this even before the E85 marketing boom.

    Think about this: different variations methanol content didn't cause catastrophic damage. Same way closed loop fueling will save your ass for variations in corn content. All marketing guys.
    I'm not saying this is a BAD feature. Its a good feature but for $900? I think not
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I'm not saying this is a BAD feature. Its a good feature but for $900? I think not
    The point is those advertised 140 whp gains can be had for free, without the ridiculous price tag.

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    Especially when used as a pump mix.
    Click here to enlarge

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    What about the guys who want to fill up and go? Guys who spend time on track driving their cars closer and closer to the limit, poring over instructor notes and data, not wanting to go over engine data logs?

    I'm just asking people to see it from a different perspective, one where people either don't have the know-how to tune their own E85 maps or don't want to mess with changing maps if they're stuck with no ethanol available. It's fine to be all technically up-to-date and be able to DIY, but you guys are a minority in that aspect, ESPECIALLY in the BMW world. Ever hang out at a BMW CCA gathering?

    $900 for a flex fuel sender and hardware to hook it up isn't that expensive for the ability to run whatever blend you have available/want and just DRIVE. The fastest pro race driver's I've ever worked with (save one) don't give a damn what you did to the setup to make the car handle better, they just wanted an improvement in X so they can cut a faster lap. A lot of my customers (actually, probably none) won't deal with custom-modifying their maps to run a specific blend of ethanol, and there would be no way to sell it to them if they knew they'd have to do it on their own. Doesn't make them stupid, they're just not interested in doing that part themselves.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Definitely a good point there and I agree but the price really makes no sense.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    What about the guys who want to fill up and go? Guys who spend time on track driving their cars closer and closer to the limit, poring over instructor notes and data, not wanting to go over engine data logs?

    I'm just asking people to see it from a different perspective, one where people either don't have the know-how to tune their own E85 maps or don't want to mess with changing maps if they're stuck with no ethanol available. It's fine to be all technically up-to-date and be able to DIY, but you guys are a minority in that aspect, ESPECIALLY in the BMW world. Ever hang out at a BMW CCA gathering?

    $900 for a flex fuel sender and hardware to hook it up isn't that expensive for the ability to run whatever blend you have available/want and just DRIVE. The fastest pro race driver's I've ever worked with (save one) don't give a damn what you did to the setup to make the car handle better, they just wanted an improvement in X so they can cut a faster lap.
    If calculating 3 gallons of e85 to 6 gallons of pump gas is too hard to comprehend
    Then I'm sure Shiv wil be happy to take that persons money.

    PS: the N54 is a godawful road course platform to begin with. And I have yet to see anything indicating from a regular paying user that they can run 100% reliably. So you'd have to mix regardless. And please see my previous posts regarding granular variances.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Definitely a good point there and I agree but the price really makes no sense.
    Development time. It doesn't cost Cobb $900 to make the AP hardware; it costs that much to develop, market, and support the hardware and software side. You have to appreciate that, being a business owner yourself. Businesses do have a nasty habit of turning profits, too. Click here to enlarge

    And @themyst , if I told every customer that they'd have to blend 1 bottle of X additive with 6 bottles of motor oil and handed them a box of bottles to do their oil change, I'd have 9 out of 10 customers walk out the door and go somewhere else that took care of it for them. Not everyone wants to mess with pulling up to 2 different pumps all the time to get the same (what they think is the same) ethanol concentration then have to log to make sure they didn't get E70 instead of E90 like the last time they just filled up at the same pump.

    And I'm not trying to make anyone agree with my side. I'd just like to see a little more parity in the threads here. There's a lot of pent-up hate toward Shiv, much of it probably deserved, but don't be so eager to jump on the "Vishnu's XZY part/tune is crap and costs too much" bandwagon. I don't see how poo-pooing something innovative like putting a Flexfuel sensor on a car that was never meant to have from the factory is productive. You guys know that Dinan still sells a ton of tunes that are widely regarded by the purists as weak/conservative/overpriced/non-resellable/pick your adjective. Doesn't stop them from selling tunes or people who have a specific set of requriements from buying them.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Apparently BrianMN runs 100% E85 but it's not clear if that is with meth or not. He's also running a base flash map underneath so its not all piggy only.
    From Shiv:
    All our development thus far has been on a Rev3. It made the most sense since it has the most i/o channels. With it, one doesn't have to give up other functionality when adding the Flex-Fuel sensor. We may eventually port functionality over to the Rev2.5 but it will require some more work due to limitations. You would have to give up the ability to run PWM meth (which, as we will soon demonstrate) is of significant value when running e85.

    My guess is that he is using meth as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    PS: the N54 is a godawful road course platform to begin with.
    Not really true. Had a customer track his 335i in the One Lap for 2 or 3 seasons a few years ago w/ Dinan tune, Dinan FMIC, Dinan OC, AST dampers and camber plates, 265/35/18 Dunlop Star Specs, 4-point welded roll-hoop, and seats. His fastest lap STOMPED my E36 M3 w/ Euro 3.2L, built diff, expensive Ohlins dampers, PFC front BBK, camber plates, and Toyo R-comps. His car weighed more and had street tires, beat me by 2s per lap at VIR - 2:14.0x versus 2:16.0x. Never a limp mode issue. Also have a customer with a 1M, upgraded from a twin-screw M Coupe with all my go-fast parts, built motor, and setup techniques I could muster. The 1M is faster by far, and 100% more daily driveable than that M Coupe beast.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Development time. It doesn't cost Cobb $900 to make the AP hardware; it costs that much to develop, market, and support the hardware and software side. You have to appreciate that, being a business owner yourself. Businesses do have a nasty habit of turning profits, too. Click here to enlarge

    And @themyst , if I told every customer that they'd have to blend 1 bottle of X additive with 6 bottles of motor oil and handed them a box of bottles to do their oil change, I'd have 9 out of 10 customers walk out the door and go somewhere else that took care of it for them. Not everyone wants to mess with pulling up to 2 different pumps all the time to get the same (what they think is the same) ethanol concentration then have to log to make sure they didn't get E70 instead of E90 like the last time they just filled up at the same pump.

    And I'm not trying to make anyone agree with my side. I'd just like to see a little more parity in the threads here. There's a lot of pent-up hate toward Shiv, much of it probably deserved, but don't be so eager to jump on the "Vishnu's XZY part/tune is crap and costs too much" bandwagon. You guys know that Dinan still sells a ton of tunes that are widely regarded by the purists as weak/conservative/overpriced/non-resellable/pick your adjective.
    Again, fuel trims, E85s knock suppression capabilities. I don't know how many more times I can repeat myself.

    if the product offered something that couldn't be had for free elsewhere (single turbo kit) I don't bash. My point is most people will be mixing fuels regardless and like I said earlier, it doesn't take a genius to add 3+6 and let the trims handle the rest.

    If you need To spend 900 dollars for someone to do it for you, like I said in my last post, shiv is happy to take your money for that peace of mind.

    PS: Dinan offers something Cobb, BMS or Vishnu will never offer, it's called a warranty. Another product catering to those "peace of mind" folk.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NoSleep Click here to enlarge
    From Shiv:
    All our development thus far has been on a Rev3. It made the most sense since it has the most i/o channels. With it, one doesn't have to give up other functionality when adding the Flex-Fuel sensor. We may eventually port functionality over to the Rev2.5 but it will require some more work due to limitations. You would have to give up the ability to run PWM meth (which, as we will soon demonstrate) is of significant value when running e85.

    My guess is that he is using meth as well.
    On the E90post thread, the only mods on the two cars were DCI only and DCI+FMIC. Both were specifically no meth.

    The Rev 2.5 doesn't have an additional I/O to handle the flexfuel sensor AND the PWM driver at the same time. And I think they're out of Rev 2.5s, so all new Procedes are Rev 3.0, but don't quote me on that.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Not really true. Had a customer track his 335i in the One Lap for 2 or 3 seasons a few years ago w/ Dinan tune, Dinan FMIC, Dinan OC, AST dampers and camber plates, 265/35/18 Dunlop Star Specs, 4-point welded roll-hoop, and seats. His fastest lap STOMPED my E36 M3 w/ Euro 3.2L, built diff, expensive Ohlins dampers, PFC front BBK, camber plates, and Toyo R-comps. His car weighed more and had street tires, beat me by 2s per lap at VIR - 2:14.0x versus 2:16.0x. Never a limp mode issue. Also have a customer with a 1M, upgraded from a twin-screw M Coupe with all my go-fast parts, built motor, and setup techniques I could muster. The 1M is faster by far, and 100% more daily driveable than that M Coupe beast.
    With an open diff flaky powertrain and daily driver suspension, it takes a lot to make one of those respectable around a ring. I suppose anyone with money could make an escalade respectable around the track.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    On the E90post thread, the only mods on the two cars were DCI only and DCI+FMIC. Both were specifically no meth.

    The Rev 2.5 doesn't have an additional I/O to handle the flexfuel sensor AND the PWM driver at the same time. And I think they're out of Rev 2.5s, so all new Procedes are Rev 3.0, but don't quote me on that.
    At 60% ethanol.

    They could clip the SLD or O2 sims and use it as an additional IO on the rev2.5. Unless he reused the O2 sim IO for something else that I'm not aware of. I know the methanol IO was taken from the IAT hijack. It's definitely possible.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Again, fuel trims, E85s knock suppression capabilities. I don't know how many more times I can repeat myself.
    I'm not sure I'm following what you're trying to say - or what you have already said was not noticed by me. You're saying that people should just run X tune/map with their Cobb AP + 33% E85/67% pump and let the ECU handle the rest?

    Isn't there more to be had from much higher E content? There's a thread where someone is trying to tune 100% E85 via ATR, and there was some good discussion on energy content of E85 compared to E10 gasoline at stoich. E85 wins by 6.8%.
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    2007 E92 335i/6MT Procede Rev3 w/PWM meth, otherwise stock
    E28 M5, R171 SLK320

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    I'm not sure I'm following what you're trying to say - or what you have already said was not noticed by me. You're saying that people should just run X tune/map with their Cobb AP + 33% E85/67% pump and let the ECU handle the rest?

    Isn't there more to be had from much higher E content? There's a thread where someone is trying to tune 100% E85 via ATR, and there was some good discussion on energy content of E85 compared to E10 gasoline at stoich. E85 wins by 6.8%.
    My point here was any granular differences in ethanol content can be handled by the ecu. I'm not saying the ecu will correct as this flexfuel product does. That comment was more for those who, as I said earlier, can add 3+6.

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