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    The torque curve looks great. Too bad there just isnt any torque present for all that time, effort and $$. 250 ft/lbs? Meh. Positively under whelmed.

    This goes to prove again and again jsut how good the stock motor is as it comes from the factory. I am no boost LOVER. Just a power lover. Anything over 800 rwhp and 600 ft lbs of torque is a good start. Write me when you get close.

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    Not being able to edit after 10 minutes is maddening. I wanted to delte any comments about very high HP output from the S54 from FI. That is not the point of your NA build at all. I realize that.

    But am I getting this part right? a 10k cost? It costs less than 2k to get an S54 to 300rwhp with just bolt ons. Another 8k $$ for another 56HP and no real appreciable torque gains doesnt look like very good economics. Poor, actually. That is my point.

    I see by the size of the thread it generated interest. Just that..interest. I really dont see a lot of owners lining up around the block for this...and opening up their wallets.

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    It is also not a dynojet dyno...would be interesting to see what a dynojet would read with these mods. Regardless it looks like a tonne of fun and should be an epic track monster! I have mad respect for a nice NA build.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Not being able to edit after 10 minutes is maddening. I wanted to delte any comments about very high HP output from the S54 from FI. That is not the point of your NA build at all. I realize that.

    But am I getting this part right? a 10k cost? It costs less than 2k to get an S54 to 300rwhp with just bolt ons. Another 8k $$ for another 56HP and no real appreciable torque gains doesnt look like very good economics. Poor, actually. That is my point.

    I see by the size of the thread it generated interest. Just that..interest. I really dont see a lot of owners lining up around the block for this...and opening up their wallets.
    I appreciate any and all input, even yours, and yep...to some/most folks...this build is probably lost on them. Is it an effective cost$$$ per HP venture, certainly not by most peoples standards...but then again, I built a 700HP mid 9 sec. Mustang for about $8k. What's a 700HP HPF M3 cost to build these days??? Everything is kinda' relative.

    As for the cost of the project, it was actually around $7.5k for everything, not quite $10k. But then again, I do see where FI people are coming from...FI makes more sense from a $$$/HP viewpoint. I get that. I'm a hardcore NA guy, and when I post up a new dyno w/even a few more HP and ft. lbs of torque, maybe it will help soften your view-maybe not. BTW, my car made about 275HP stock and about 235 ft. lbs of torque, so that's roughly almost a 90HP gain and a 30ft. lbs of torque gain...not too shabby for an NA car, considering these things aren't noted for being torque monsters.

    To your last point, agreed, I don't see too many people lining up either...I like being different!Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
    It is also not a dynojet dyno...would be interesting to see what a dynojet would read with these mods. Regardless it looks like a tonne of fun and should be an epic track monster! I have mad respect for a nice NA build.
    Thanx! He's dyno is calibrated to approxiamte dyno numbers, but we've had dynojet tuned M3's come into his shop that read about 10HP lower on his dyno...you should see their faces!Click here to enlarge

  5. #30
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    Mid nine second Mustang for 8k, now that is a feat!

    I still would like to see the torque figures higher. keep working! The price sounds better, BTW.
    I am saying that after 300rwhp and the approx 2 k that it takes to get there, the NA results seem to be a poor return on investment.
    I would love if my car was NA. its just not feasible if you want to go really fast. Its a shame. The E46 chAssis with a few mods is capable of handling SO much more power than stock its not even funny. It's a hard battle to stay NA. I dont understand it, but I respect it. Good luck.

    At least Obiowan is happy!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stosh1 Click here to enlarge
    Hey guys, brand new to this forum, and thought I'd open up w/this post. This site was recommended to me by a buddy over on M3Forum (where I spend about 99% of my forum lurking time), and he said that this site was a little more technically minded...so I thought that this would be an appropriate first thread. Click here to enlarge I hope that this is the right section to post this in...mods feel free to move it if necessary???

    Anyway, I'm not going to bother repeating everything about the build here, as everything is pretty much covered in the link below. For those of you that lead double lives over on M3Forum, I apologize if this a repost for you. I basically just wanted to explore/develop a head/cam package that would make good reliable power as an alternative for those of us who want to remain NA. There have only been a handfull of builds (that I'm aware of) somewhat similar to this, but the ones that I was most familiar with were based around stroker kits costing $10k +. I wanted to develop a package that was relatively affordable and didn't involve any crazy 'trick' parts...I think that we succeded!

    Enough talking, I hope that you enjoy reading about my build, as much as I enjoyed the actual process! See you guys around...Click here to enlarge

    EDIT: Ooops, looks like I can't post links yet being a noob. Can someone please post it for me? Thanx!
    Hey Stan!

    Thanks for posting this info up.

    This is front page worthy information. Stan's build completely dispelled the decade old rumors spread on the interwebs regarding the S54:

    1) The head is maximized.
    2) Cams are not worth the headache and result in minimal gains.

    Thank you again for your contribution to this community Stan. We need more members like you.

    Mike

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
    Hey Stan!

    Thanks for posting this info up.

    This is front page worthy information. Stan's build completely dispelled the decade old rumors spread on the interwebs regarding the S54:

    1) The head is maximized.
    2) Cams are not worth the headache and result in minimal gains.

    Thank you again for your contribution to this community Stan. We need more members like you.

    Mike
    Thanx bruther Mike! We are still working on refining the tune, and I'll be posting NEW & IMPROVED dyno's in a couple of more weeks.Click here to enlarge

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    Please tell me you upgraded to the new VAC ATI crank damper. 8700RPM is enough to grenade the stock damper after a handful of runs.

    That torque curve looks gorgeous. The torque gains are "only" about 10-27lb-ft, but those gains are in the higest revs. That power from a stock-bottom S54 is incredible!

    Have you checked your rod bearings? Early or late motor?
    James Muskopf
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Please tell me you upgraded to the new VAC ATI crank damper. 8700RPM is enough to grenade the stock damper after a handful of runs.

    That torque curve looks gorgeous. The torque gains are "only" about 10-27lb-ft, but those gains are in the higest revs. That power from a stock-bottom S54 is incredible!

    Have you checked your rod bearings? Early or late motor?
    From my discussions with stosh1, he did not upgrade to the VAC ATI crank damper. This is actually a modification that I have considered, but probably not my greatest priority considering that my car is primarily street driven with a modest redline.

    The torque curve looks amazing doesn't it! What amazes me the most about the tune and cams is that the torque remains practically flat to redline. I am imagine that results in a car that never runs out of steam up top.

    If my memory serves me right, I believe he said he won't be shifting much past 8400RPM. Based off his graph, the power and torque seems to plateau around there until 8700RPM.
    2002 E46 M3 6MT | Jet Black . Black Nappa | My GermanBoost Build Thread
    2009 E90 M3 DCT | Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Not being able to edit after 10 minutes is maddening. I wanted to delte any comments about very high HP output from the S54 from FI. That is not the point of your NA build at all. I realize that.
    Not being able to edit is a wonderful luxury of this forum. The idea that the other forums allow you to edit your posts years later is a joke.... or like e46fanatics.... just ban members and alter/delete sponsor incriminating posts.

    I am glad that you realized that there are some folks with dispensable income who could give a rip about boost or have been burned by boost in the past.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    But am I getting this part right? a 10k cost? It costs less than 2k to get an S54 to 300rwhp with just bolt ons. Another 8k $$ for another 56HP and no real appreciable torque gains doesnt look like very good economics. Poor, actually. That is my point.
    I see that Stan has fixed the dollar figures, but you have to take a step back Bdave. Just because you relish huge HP numbers....please realize that some folks in this community have zero interest turning an N/A momentum car into a straightline dynoqueen with a hairdryer and an HPF Club 700 Hp sticker.

    Lets get real about economics. This is modifying cars. You've got a stage 3+ HPF car. 'Nuff said.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    I see by the size of the thread it generated interest. Just that..interest. I really dont see a lot of owners lining up around the block for this...and opening up their wallets.
    Wrong. I know of two that have lined up to follow Stan's footsteps. Myself included. I just acquired a used head..

    When Stan matches this top-end work with a proper 3.5-3.6L stroker, 400 rwhp is very attainable and reliable. In a 3150 lb 46M, this would be ideal.

    Mike

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 Click here to enlarge
    Please tell me you upgraded to the new VAC ATI crank damper. 8700RPM is enough to grenade the stock damper after a handful of runs.

    That torque curve looks gorgeous. The torque gains are "only" about 10-27lb-ft, but those gains are in the higest revs. That power from a stock-bottom S54 is incredible!

    Have you checked your rod bearings? Early or late motor?
    Nope, still running the factory balancer as we're not spinning the motor to 8,700rpms on any type of regular basis...motor typically sees around 8,200rpm shift points. I live 20 min from ATI and have used many of their products in other cars, but I heard throught the grapevine that there was an issue or two with this application...which reminds me that I gotta give my tech guy a buzz over there to see what's up?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
    Not being able to edit is a wonderful luxury of this forum. The idea that the other forums allow you to edit your posts years later is a joke.... or like e46fanatics.... just ban members and alter/delete sponsor incriminating posts.

    I am glad that you realized that there are some folks with dispensable income who could give a rip about boost or have been burned by boost in the past.

    I see that Stan has fixed the dollar figures, but you have to take a step back Bdave. Just because you relish huge HP numbers....please realize that some folks in this community have zero interest turning an N/A momentum car into a straightline dynoqueen with a hairdryer and an HPF Club 700 Hp sticker.

    Lets get real about economics. This is modifying cars. You've got a stage 3+ HPF car. 'Nuff said.

    Wrong. I know of two that have lined up to follow Stan's footsteps. Myself included. I just acquired a used head..

    When Stan matches this top-end work with a proper 3.5-3.6L stroker, 400 rwhp is very attainable and reliable. In a 3150 lb 46M, this would be ideal.

    Mike
    Thanx for having my back Mike, but it's all good! Like I said, I welcome all comments (positve or not), and I realize that staying NA is not for everyone...the same way that FI is not for everyone. Each one brings it's own inherent costs & potential problems, but based on past experiences w/both NA & FI, I do believe that having a 'built' NA car vs. an FI car will generally be more reliable and provide longer more trouble free service. Plus, I like the satisfaction of maximizing the original engineers vision of this platform, I personally just find it more rewarding...again, different strokes for different folks.Click here to enlarge

    Also, as Mike eluded too, if I ever get around to building that 'ultimate' stroker motor, power should rise to over 400HP with some nice torque gains as well...that, IMO, would be the 'perfect' M3!Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    The torque curve looks great. Too bad there just isnt any torque present for all that time, effort and $$. 250 ft/lbs? Meh. Positively under whelmed.

    This goes to prove again and again jsut how good the stock motor is as it comes from the factory. I am no boost LOVER. Just a power lover. Anything over 800 rwhp and 600 ft lbs of torque is a good start. Write me when you get close.
    Are you serious with this? He's keeping it NA. He isn't trying to get 800 whp.

    I respect the work that goes into squeezing out every last horse from this much more than just slapping on the largest turbo that will fit and then getting an erection over big numbers while sacrificing response and driveability.

    This is great modding here, fantastic really. You don't have to try and make huge power numbers. Taking this type of motor to the next level separates the real engineers/tuners/enthusiasts from the rest.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Not being able to edit after 10 minutes is maddening. I wanted to delte any comments about very high HP output from the S54 from FI. That is not the point of your NA build at all. I realize that.
    If I let you edit we would not have been able to see your thought process and you come to the correct conclusion yourself. I like it better this way rather than people taking things away.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    I see by the size of the thread it generated interest. Just that..interest. I really dont see a lot of owners lining up around the block for this...and opening up their wallets.
    That's the point. It takes a special kind of person who is trying to maximize a high revving naturally aspirated powerplant as BMW M (and God himself) intended it. The best car isn't the one with the most power. BMW M used to get it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stosh1 Click here to enlarge
    I appreciate any and all input, even yours, and yep...to some/most folks...this build is probably lost on them. Is it an effective cost$$$ per HP venture, certainly not by most peoples standards...but then again, I built a 700HP mid 9 sec. Mustang for about $8k. What's a 700HP HPF M3 cost to build these days??? Everything is kinda' relative.

    As for the cost of the project, it was actually around $7.5k for everything, not quite $10k. But then again, I do see where FI people are coming from...FI makes more sense from a $$$/HP viewpoint. I get that. I'm a hardcore NA guy, and when I post up a new dyno w/even a few more HP and ft. lbs of torque, maybe it will help soften your view-maybe not. BTW, my car made about 275HP stock and about 235 ft. lbs of torque, so that's roughly almost a 90HP gain and a 30ft. lbs of torque gain...not too shabby for an NA car, considering these things aren't noted for being torque monsters.

    To your last point, agreed, I don't see too many people lining up either...I like being different!
    So well said.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
    Not being able to edit is a wonderful luxury of this forum. The idea that the other forums allow you to edit your posts years later is a joke.... or like e46fanatics.... just ban members and alter/delete sponsor incriminating posts.
    There we go. People get it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Are you serious with this? He's keeping it NA. He isn't trying to get 800 whp.

    I respect the work that goes into squeezing out every last horse from this much more than just slapping on the largest turbo that will fit and then getting an erection over big numbers while sacrificing response and driveability.

    This is great modding here, fantastic really. You don't have to try and make huge power numbers. Taking this type of motor to the next level separates the real engineers/tuners/enthusiasts from the rest.
    Thanx for all of the support and kind words Sticky! Again, I knew that posting an NA build on "Bimmerboost" might not be well received by everyone, but hopefully everyone can at least appreciate the time, planning, and effort that goes into an NA project like this. And yes, it requires a little more forethought than just hanging a big hairdryer off of the motor, but at the same time...not to take away from FI builds because they bring their own unique requirements to the table.

    Stay tuned, because I'll have some updated dyno's in the next couple of weeks! It won't convert the hardcore HP guys, but it might open a few more eyes anyway.Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I respect the work that goes into squeezing out every last horse from this much more than just slapping on the largest turbo that will fit and then getting an erection over big numbers while sacrificing response and driveability.

    This is great modding here, fantastic really. You don't have to try and make huge power numbers. Taking this type of motor to the next level separates the real engineers/tuners/enthusiasts from the rest.
    Couldn't agree with you more. N/A power vs. boosted is analagous to an apples to testicles comparison.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    There we go. People get it.
    I get it and I respect it. The ten minute edit window is simple yet brilliant. Nice work Joe.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stosh1 Click here to enlarge
    Thanx for all of the support and kind words Sticky! Again, I knew that posting an NA build on "Bimmerboost" might not be well received by everyone, but hopefully everyone can at least appreciate the time, planning, and effort that goes into an NA project like this. And yes, it requires a little more forethought than just hanging a big hairdryer off of the motor,
    Nice work Stan. I respect your build, the foresight, and balls it took to complete. Top notch and welcome to Bimmerboost! Click here to enlarge

    Mike

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stosh1 Click here to enlarge
    Thanx for all of the support and kind words Sticky! Again, I knew that posting an NA build on "Bimmerboost" might not be well received by everyone, but hopefully everyone can at least appreciate the time, planning, and effort that goes into an NA project like this. And yes, it requires a little more forethought than just hanging a big hairdryer off of the motor, but at the same time...not to take away from FI builds because they bring their own unique requirements to the table.

    Stay tuned, because I'll have some updated dyno's in the next couple of weeks! It won't convert the hardcore HP guys, but it might open a few more eyes anyway.Click here to enlarge
    Would love to see updated dynojet numbers. Have no problem putting it up on the front page in a detailed article either once we get them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stosh1 Click here to enlarge
    I knew that posting an NA build on "Bimmerboost" might not be well received by everyone
    Also wanted to add, we aren't all about forced induction here. "Boost" refers to boosting performance in all aspects. It can be suspension, NA, brakes, whatever. Naturally aspirated builds are more than welcome.

    To be perfectly honest, if I could do it over, I would have just built my own M3 GTS and say $#@! it to trying to be the fastest.

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    Yes, not all of the people here are boost lovers. I personally would take a stroked high comp NA S54 with razor sharp throttle response over built HPF's.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Yes, not all of the people here are boost lovers. I personally would take a stroked high comp NA S54 with razor sharp throttle response over built HPF's.
    Dont be too hasty. HPF is experimenting with smaller turbos and high compression builds. At least one owner has somehow adapted a quick spool valve (I dont know how...space issues on S54 bottom mount). Turbo builds are becoming more and more linear and lag free every day.
    You got your billet wheels, ceramic BB's, and E85 too. All factors that make for virtually lag free throttle response in the right builds. Just sayin...

    I do respect the quest for NA power but to infer that ALL of today's turbo builds do not give razor sharp throttle response is incorrect.

    The trend now is smaller, VERY fast spooling turbos that still make amazing power but dont feel at all like the turbos of yester year. Guys are finally having their cake and eating it too!

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    Question

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Dont be too hasty. HPF is experimenting with smaller turbos and high compression builds. At least one owner has somehow adapted a quick spool valve.
    Now that is ironic... weren't you the hasty one "jumping on the N/A build" because $ per WHP didn't add up to you? Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Turbo builds are becoming more and more linear and lag free every day.
    You got your billet wheels, ceramic BB's, and E85 too. All factors that make for virtually lag free throttle response in the right builds. Just sayin...
    They certainly are coming along. However, turbo power still does not compare to a high compression, high revving N/A motor. Maybe in another decade. Just sayin...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    I do respect the quest for NA power but to infer that ALL of today's turbo builds do not give razor sharp throttle response is incorrect.
    You're missing the point here Bdave... and if you truly respected the N/A power build you would have respected the 120+ hp/Liter Stan achieved from a decade old slab of iron and aluminim. Turbos have their advantages and disadvantages that you are more than well aware of. Throttle response is not the only thing the turbo car lacks in comparison to a proper N/A build. Turbo response has improved, but it would be foolish to imply that the throttle response from an HPF car is anywhere near the S54 in N/A form.

    In conjunction with throttle response advantages, an N/A motor has the advantage of linear power development. A linear application of power, instead of the mountainous and peaky curves your beloved HPF cars share (and Supras etc.), is also a detriment to a momentum based car like the 46M. That is, for someone who utilizes the car/chassis for what it was developed for.

    When boost hits, power comes on VIOLENTLY. This is acceptable for a 1320 foot run... but counter productive for HPDE/Auto-X and road-racing.

    To each their own. I look forward to your response.

    Mike

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Not being able to edit after 10 minutes is maddening. I wanted to delte any comments about very high HP output from the S54 from FI. That is not the point of your NA build at all. I realize that.

    But am I getting this part right? a 10k cost? It costs less than 2k to get an S54 to 300rwhp with just bolt ons. Another 8k $$ for another 56HP and no real appreciable torque gains doesnt look like very good economics. Poor, actually. That is my point.

    I see by the size of the thread it generated interest. Just that..interest. I really dont see a lot of owners lining up around the block for this...and opening up their wallets.
    His build isn't about power, moron.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    His build isn't about power, moron.
    He changed his mind and said he understood.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    He changed his mind and said he understood.

    Oh.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


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