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Thread: S54 Head & Cam Package Build + Dyno Results

              
  1. #126
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    @MisterEm went over your flow numbers and do you think he could have done better than the 18% or so?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    @MisterEm went over your flow numbers and do you think he could have done better than the 18% or so?
    Nope. Both Dave and I were very impressed with the results. He originally did not want to work on the head as it is quite maxxed out and the ports are cnc cut from the factory. Very little material was taken out and merely polished. We also stayed with OE size valves. +1 or +0.5 mm oversized valves and the numbers would skyrocket.

    The gains are in the valve-job and seat work which is a better metric to rate the quality of their work. The ports were consistent and the gains balanced from the intake:exhaust

    We were hoping for 7-10% gains if that helps. I will be swinging by his shop/place later this week. Send me good pictures of your heads @Sticky and I will show Dave.

    If he doesn't think there is room for improvement he won't take your money.
    Last edited by MisterEm; 04-03-2013 at 09:50 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    Nope. Both Dave and I were very impressed with the results. He originally did not want to work on the head as it is quite maxxed out and the ports are cnc cut from the factory. Very little material was taken out and merely polished. We also stayed with OE size valves. +1 or +0.5 mm oversized valves and the numbers would skyrocket.

    The gains are in the valve-job and seat work which is a better metric to rate the quality of their work. The ports were consistent and the gains balanced from the intake:exhaust

    We were hoping for 7-10% gains if that helps. I will be swinging by his shop/place later this week. Send me good pictures of your heads @Sticky and I will show Dave.

    If he doesn't think there is room for improvement he won't take your money.
    Yep, agreed Mike, your numbers are excellent (especially the low lift numbers) considering how well the factory head flows out of the box! Should make good power buddy!

  4. #129
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    We also stayed with OE size valves. +1 or +0.5 mm oversized valves and the numbers would skyrocket.
    Why no oversized valves then?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    Send me good pictures of your heads @Sticky and I will show Dave.

    If he doesn't think there is room for improvement he won't take your money.
    I'll have to get him pics but I would expect the S65 heads to be as good as the S54 heads.

    What kind of a power gain would 18% increase in flow give?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stosh1 Click here to enlarge
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    Yep, agreed Mike, your numbers are excellent (especially the low lift numbers) considering how well the factory head flows out of the box! Should make good power buddy!
    Thanks @stosh1! I want to max out the car as is on the dyno prior to bolting on the head/cams. I got my injectors cleaned up at RC a month back and two of my stock ones were unacceptable in the flow test. I will test the refreshed injectors, and new plugs on the car shortly.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Why no oversized valves then?
    VANOS compatibility. Losing VANOS would eliminate the streetable nature of the S54. I was more interested in a reliable head and valvetrain parts for a redline at or north of 8,500 rpm. 8,500 redline with 4.10's is about perfection for me.

    The gains measured on Daves flowbench (Superflow - 600) were an added bonus.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I'll have to get him pics but I would expect the S65 heads to be as good as the S54 heads.

    What kind of a power gain would 18% increase in flow give?
    If you have a spare set of heads, I would just ship them to Dave. He gets lots of "soft- inquiries" if you know what I mean. When someone ponies up the shipping for a set of heads to his shop he takes notice.

    I bought a tool for him to properly flow the BMW 4v heads. So at least you won't have that hurdle to start the process.

    When Norm and I were there last he had at least 6 complete V8 heads - mostly LSx and SBF - in various stages of porting/upgrades or repair.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    What kind of a power gain would 18% increase in flow give?
    For your boosted car, I would imagine much more power on less boost. For my car, I will be happy with pulling hard on E9x's instead of just edging them. For the dyno queens 340hp/260tq in a 3300 lb street-car with our lame 91 octane would be fine.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    Thanks @stosh1 ! I want to max out the car as is on the dyno prior to bolting on the head/cams. I got my injectors cleaned up at RC a month back and two of my stock ones were unacceptable in the flow test. I will test the refreshed injectors, and new plugs on the car shortly.


    VANOS compatibility. Losing VANOS would eliminate the streetable nature of the S54. I was more interested in a reliable head and valvetrain parts for a redline at or north of 8,500 rpm. 8,500 redline with 4.10's is about perfection for me.

    The gains measured on Daves flowbench (Superflow - 600) were an added bonus.



    If you have a spare set of heads, I would just ship them to Dave. He gets lots of "soft- inquiries" if you know what I mean. When someone ponies up the shipping for a set of heads to his shop he takes notice.

    I bought a tool for him to properly flow the BMW 4v heads. So at least you won't have that hurdle to start the process.

    When Norm and I were there last he had at least 6 complete V8 heads - mostly LSx and SBF - in various stages of porting/upgrades or repair.

    For your boosted car, I would imagine much more power on less boost. For my car, I will be happy with pulling hard on E9x's instead of just edging them. For the dyno queens 340hp/260tq in a 3300 lb street-car with our lame 91 octane would be fine.
    A few questions for you - how much would everything you have done so far cost (assuming I already had a used S54B32 block/head)? Does eliminating the VANOS really take away from the tractable nature of the S54? VAC claims it can be deleted without too much fuss in the lower RPM ranges. I love this motor, and love this car - I am looking for a used one to build up for weekend fun.

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    I would love to send my head in to Dave once I get cams.
    Click here to enlarge



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    For your boosted car, I would imagine much more power on less boost. For my car, I will be happy with pulling hard on E9x's instead of just edging them. For the dyno queens 340hp/260tq in a 3300 lb street-car with our lame 91 octane would be fine.
    Would you be able to give me a RWHP estimate on your car?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    If you have a spare set of heads, I would just ship them to Dave. He gets lots of "soft- inquiries" if you know what I mean. When someone ponies up the shipping for a set of heads to his shop he takes notice.

    I bought a tool for him to properly flow the BMW 4v heads. So at least you won't have that hurdle to start the process.
    I'll see if I can get him a set of spare heads.

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    Great posts and conversations among everyone!!

    @stosh1 and @MisterEm are going to have two the craziest street E46 M3 NA builds out there! Two of my idles for sure! Click here to enlarge

    Paging @S62R ... a master wizard when it comes to BMW NA motors Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
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    A few questions for you - how much would everything you have done so far cost (assuming I already had a used S54B32 block/head)? Does eliminating the VANOS really take away from the tractable nature of the S54?
    The price depends on what you are doing with the head. I pulled my head from an over-revved motor with 12 bent exhaust valves. If you head is operational, you can save quite a bit of coin on the valvetrain parts. I wasn't as fortunate so we went with Supertech for valves, locks, dual-valve springs, and retainers.

    If you are serious, Dave is willing to do more of the I6 BMW heads. I cannot speculate on prices for you but they are considerably cheaper than other traditional BMW shops.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 0-60Motorsports Click here to enlarge
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    I would love to send my head in to Dave once I get cams.
    He's a good family man for sure and your head will be taken care of. Most of the work comes in from the delivery man. I think @normcaldwell and I were lucky to be able to drive to the shop and see Dave at work in his element.

    I am sad he turned away both sets of S54 ITB's I brought by his shop...but oh well VAC took care of me nicely on that front. Thank you Steve B.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Would you be able to give me a RWHP estimate on your car? .
    317/246 last go round a few weeks ago. I later learned two injectors were on their way out during that run after I sent them in for a rebuild. I would say 320/245 would be a fair and conservative baseline now. If the market helps me out I may hit the dyno again after I swap in the new injectors.

    My RWHP guess would be 360 on a sealevel dynojet SAE after the ported heads and 288/280 cams. I am paraphrasing Sal from @evolve from our last conversation.... but he doesn't trust SAE correction factors - a fancy algorithm- in the 1.25-1.30 range like Norm and I see for dyno runs at 5,800 ft.

    You guys at or near sea-level rarely see anything above 1.10 for SAE correction factors.

    When I do find a suitable trailer, I will take my car to Chicago and hit up @flipm3 for some dyno-tuning at sea-level. Should be a neat comparison to our high elevation dynos.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I'll see if I can get him a set of spare heads.
    Best bet for you. I would love to see the S65B40 head in its full glory. The first S54B32 head I played with was fun and I am sure a set of S65B40 heads would be lovely to compare with the LSX variants in Dave's shop.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by flipm3 Click here to enlarge
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    Great posts and conversations among everyone!!

    @stosh1 and @MisterEm are going to have two the craziest street E46 M3 NA builds out there! Two of my idles for sure! Click here to enlarge
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    Should be a fun year.

  11. #136
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    Best bet for you. I would love to see the S65B40 head in its full glory. The first S54B32 head I played with was fun and I am sure a set of S65B40 heads would be lovely to compare with the LSX variants in Dave's shop.
    The problem I see is the S54 and S65 heads are so good there is little to improve. But... you did get an improvement. The % would be greater for me due to forced induction so it may be worth it.

    I would love to know if cams would be as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    The problem I see is the S54 and S65 heads are so good there is little to improve. But... you did get an improvement. The % would be greater for me due to forced induction so it may be worth it.
    Dave initially did not think there was much to gain until the valvejob. I was prepared for much lower flow numbers to be honest. As we both know, the ports are excellent from the factory but you can certainly improve the valve-seat region and clean up some of the CNC marks. If he knows your car is boosted he can dig deeper into the ports. For an N/A build his porting strategy is much different. That was one of the first questions he asked about the car... compression, boost, funny juice etc.

    If you can find a set of heads on the cheap... I would go for it Joe. I already bought the tooling for you! If the mid-range lift gains (where boost would take a better advantage) are on par with what we saw with the junked S54 head... I would imagine you would be one happy S65 owner.

    Even Stan (OP) agreed the gains were good. I do not recall seeing pre-and-post flow bench numbers from his build but I may have missed it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    Dave initially did not think there was much to gain until the valvejob. I was prepared for much lower flow numbers to be honest. As we both know, the ports are excellent from the factory but you can certainly improve the valve-seat region and clean up some of the CNC marks. If he knows your car is boosted he can dig deeper into the ports. For an N/A build his porting strategy is much different. That was one of the first questions he asked about the car... compression, boost, funny juice etc.

    If you can find a set of heads on the cheap... I would go for it Joe. I already bought the tooling for you! If the mid-range lift gains (where boost would take a better advantage) are on par with what we saw with the junked S54 head... I would imagine you would be one happy S65 owner.

    Even Stan (OP) agreed the gains were good. I do not recall seeing pre-and-post flow bench numbers from his build but I may have missed it.
    Ok I need to look for a set of spare heads.

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    Smile

    The head is safe and sound in the garage.

    Here are some pictures from Dave's shop.

    The itsy bitsy inline 6 head surrounded by a BB Ford and SB Chevy heads recently finished as well.

    Click here to enlarge

    Topside (first one a bit blurry - sorry no Norm to take excellent pictures this go-round)

    Click here to enlarge

    Closeup of the topside - Schrick DLC coated followers, Supertech valve-springs, retainers, and locks.

    Click here to enlarge

    Business end - Supertech Inconel exhaust and coated intake valves.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Who wants to help me with install?

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    S54 head p*rn. Looks great! Did I miss the let's-go-to-Dave's message? lol.
    I could be an assistant; kind of like a 'go-fetch' and 'hold-this', and 'take pics' boy . . . . .
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    In the end how much did it cost whole head job?

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    I'm surprised nobody has asked this yet, but what was the depression used to measure the flow.

    Nothing wrong with the gains, but the flow numbers posted are significantly lower than what I've seen from a number of stock S54 castings flowed at 28".
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    Smile

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by normcaldwell Click here to enlarge
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    S54 head p*rn. Looks great! Did I miss the let's-go-to-Dave's message? lol.
    I could be an assistant; kind of like a 'go-fetch' and 'hold-this', and 'take pics' boy . . . . .
    It was a spur of the moment deal Norm. We happened to be in the area and Dave was around.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
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    I'm surprised nobody has asked this yet, but what was the depression used to measure the flow.
    Are you really surprised? Come on now! Which vendor/machinne shop builds these heads and SHARES the flow data for less than your first born?

    If you are looking at total volume than you are correct. Next to the 28" flow information I also made it clear the flow was NOT measured beyond 0.400" lift based on the dual valve opening tool used. The stock S54 camshaft lifts to 0.496" so we are missing the major volume contributors.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
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    Nothing wrong with the gains, but the flow numbers posted are significantly lower than what I've seen from a number of stock S54 castings flowed at 28".
    Not at all worried about other castings and how they flowed in another shop that measured beyond 0.400' lift - we were worried about the delta on our head, with our equipment, and not altering port velocity.

    I am sure you are aware, but flowbenches, and valve-opening fixtures are not created equal much like a dynamometer. What mattered was how the head flowed to start on this flowbench and valve fixture and how it performed after. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Not trying to be rude as I enjoy your posts @PEI330Ci but I could give a flying hoot what another head flowed at another flowbench, with a different valve-opening tool and dial caliper setup, in a foreign shop somewhere.

    If we had a tool that could accurately and repeatedly measure lift beyond 0.400" the numbers would match up. We could have measured more lift, but it was not consistent so the data was tossed.

    The only shop that provided true flow data matched our stock head lifts through 0.400" lift and also Stan's.

    Again, I gave full disclosure at the beginning here. This is not new news.

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    Your head guy is working with good equipment, and I think he has a pretty good grasp of variability if he's repeating tests to maintain accuracy. I don't dispute the numbers presented, I was just trying to validate your gains based on the flow data presented.

    Some shops test at 25".

    Other's don't test at all...or maybe they did at one point, but don't want to be held to the data. (Just in case someone actually tests the flow and finds that there if significant flow variance across the cylinders.)

    That last .1" of lift missing from the testing doesn't change much....and is easily validated in Pipemax.

    Oddly enough, I think you are going to find the sound of the engine has changed....
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    Thanks for the insight. I tried inquiring via many methods to get other results with OEM junk before we moved forward. The head saw not much but a fresh valve-job with aftermarket gear and some light polishing in the end. We weren't expecting huge gains at all.

    Interesting tidbit on the engine note thanks Adam. I wonder if Stan noticed as well?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    The head is safe and sound in the garage.

    Here are some pictures from Dave's shop.

    The itsy bitsy inline 6 head surrounded by a BB Ford and SB Chevy heads recently finished as well.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im.../QNuW6Ts-1.jpg

    Topside (first one a bit blurry - sorry no Norm to take excellent pictures this go-round)

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im.../v8Cl0sq-1.jpg

    Closeup of the topside - Schrick DLC coated followers, Supertech valve-springs, retainers, and locks.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im.../CSU93ls-1.jpg

    Business end - Supertech Inconel exhaust and coated intake valves.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im.../E2T00h2-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im.../WPFGsW2-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im.../qCWk0QY-1.jpg

    Who wants to help me with install?
    The head looks so good.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    The head looks so good.
    Dave was pretty happy with it and was a fan of the Supertech hardware. He may invest in the high-dollar tooling to flow these BMW heads a bit further if he sees a bit more of this work.

    For now, he does mostly big HP domestic builds and aluminum head repair. He had a set of Audi 5V heads off of a TT A6 on the surgery table for a complete valve-job and weld repair when I left - so he's not afraid of the euro motors.

    He is not an internet guy at all and its probably his biggest downfall. If you want his shop number PM me.

    Mike

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    Well...now I know where I'll be sending my head in the far future Looks amazing @MisterEm!! CAN'T WAIT FOR COMPLETION!!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    He is not an internet guy at all and its probably his biggest downfall. If you want his shop number PM me.

    Mike
    One of the best engine builders in Eastern Canada has no webpage, and no email. You'd think he was stuck in the dark ages until you enter his shop....all state of the art stuff. I guess being an NHRA record holder gives you more work than you can handle?

    Good to hear you found somebody you trust.

    One comment on the low-lift numbers: Guys I spend a lot of time around at the track swear by low lift #s. They will source 5 sets of OEM head castings, and find the best ones at low lift values. Then those are the ones they keep to work on.

    With the M54 head, it has a nasty low lift curve on the exhaust side. If you figure out how to fix it, it can give you a really good gain.

    For the S54 head development that I've been privy to, they focused on measuring flow velocities across various cross sections of the port using a pitot tube, and also flow turbulence with little strings on sticks. One guy was even using a microphone to measure the airflow "noise", and was trying things to change the amplitude at certain frequencies. His reasoning was that the lower the noise, the less turbulence. In all cases, I never saw anything that looked radically different...but I'm sure that there was some science going on in 0.5mm increments inside the port. The best I'd heard of from a peak flow standpoint was in the 280+ area at 28"...but this was for something going over 8k RPM by a healthy amount.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
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    One of the best engine builders in Eastern Canada has no webpage, and no email. You'd think he was stuck in the dark ages until you enter his shop....all state of the art stuff. I guess being an NHRA record holder gives you more work than you can handle?
    That is eerily similar to my quite accidental introduction to Dave and his shop albeit on a much smaller scale. When he retired from racing due to a crash in 2007, he was the WR holder in 3 classes at Bonneville in his personal car and the big boys at Bandimere Speedway all run his heads.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
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    One comment on the low-lift numbers: Guys I spend a lot of time around at the track swear by low lift #s. They will source 5 sets of OEM head castings, and find the best ones at low lift values. Then those are the ones they keep to work on.
    Based on the low-lift numbers after completing the head, he isn't too fond of messing any further with the ports or valve-seats on a normally aspirated car. A head for a forcefed S54 - ahem @normcaldwell - he has some more work he is willing to do. In my car's case, he was primarily worried about cleaning up the CNC marks without killing the velocity.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
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    In all cases, I never saw anything that looked radically different...but I'm sure that there was some science going on in 0.5mm increments inside the port. The best I'd heard of from a peak flow standpoint was in the 280+ area at 28"...but this was for something going over 8k RPM by a healthy amount.
    I have seen flow numbers for the S54 head with the +1mm oversize valves. At 0.500" lift the numbers were in the 280cfm range you reported. I assure you Dave's system is much simpler than the one you describe!

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