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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    I gotta be honest...I couldn't read through all 50+ pages. I did lol at some of the banter, however. But what I gathered is that your M3 has been out of commission for almost 2 years with a engine build and DCT upgrade, but when ready will be an absolute beast.
    Yes.

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    Interesting thread. Sub'd for more info.
    Burger Motorsports
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Forget a piggyback.

    I'm going out on a limb here, but I think we have the most track laps on a 600+hp SC M3. 100s of laps, dozens of drivers...you name it. It's been VERY hot and humid as well here this summer!! No meth, no problems.

    We like simple solutions and a out of the box VF kit has blown our mind. Oh, we recently switched to a 3:64 diff - wow.

    A flash can be sorted for meth use if you wish. I can answer any questions on the VF kit, reach out any time! mike@vacmotorsports.com

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
    A flash can be sorted for meth use if you wish.
    Exactly and this is the best way to do it.

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    So Mike@VAC and Sticky - my preference would be to just have a flash, but can a flash tune operate similar to a piggy with multiple maps? Or be able to know when meth is flowing and adapt? It is very comforting that the Procede+PWM knows whether meth is flowing or not and can toggle almost instantaneously between different map profiles.

    I haven't heard of a flash being able to work like this. But if VF or ESS can do this with a flash, I would be very happy.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    but can a flash tune operate similar to a piggy with multiple maps?
    Depending on who you go with you can get a handheld flash loader to switch maps.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    Or be able to know when meth is flowing and adapt?
    It will not adapt.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    It is very comforting that the Procede+PWM knows whether meth is flowing or not and can toggle almost instantaneously between different map profiles.
    No doubt it is but I don't even think this will work with the S65 ECU.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    I haven't heard of a flash being able to work like this. But if VF or ESS can do this with a flash, I would be very happy.
    They can do a meth map but they can't switch on the fly.

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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    So Mike@VAC and Sticky - my preference would be to just have a flash, but can a flash tune operate similar to a piggy with multiple maps? Or be able to know when meth is flowing and adapt? It is very comforting that the Procede+PWM knows whether meth is flowing or not and can toggle almost instantaneously between different map profiles.

    I haven't heard of a flash being able to work like this. But if VF or ESS can do this with a flash, I would be very happy.

    it sounds like your stuck on the piggyback part of it. Noone suggests a piggyback on the S65. Let me put it to you this way, if it was needed, I would have paid BMS to fab me a special JB to do it, but Its not required. If you play with the piggyback (agrressive mapping for meth)+boost+meth on the S65, your gonna feel the pain of a learning curve

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    it sounds like your stuck on the piggyback part of it. Noone suggests a piggyback on the S65. Let me put it to you this way, if it was needed, I would have paid BMS to fab me a special JB to do it, but Its not required. If you play with the piggyback (agrressive mapping for meth)+boost+meth on the S65, your gonna feel the pain of a learning curve
    Thanks. So what I've gathered is that if I want an ESS 600 kit or a VF 620 kit and want to add meth, I should just add a traditional meth kit and not tune for it. Maybe on a dyno it will be worth 15 WHP but in a real world situation where I'm on a track and IAT's are climbing, the meth will allow me to sustain power levels without dropping off (perhaps significantly). But fine tuning specifically for meth is a dangeous risk as it may increase power quite a bit but significantly increases the risk of (expensive) engine failure.

  9. #34
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    I wouldn't say dangerous just be aware. Race gas tune run race gas. Meth tune run meth. It's simple, only dangerous if the user $#@!s up.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    ^^Was gonna say, a lot of the blown S65 failures either came down to 2 things: mechanical component failure (bearings) or user's thinking they know better & trying to make their own "improvements"
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  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    ^^Was gonna say, a lot of the blown S65 failures either came down to 2 things: mechanical component failure (bearings) or user's thinking they know better & trying to make their own "improvements"
    The bearing failure was just seen in Drew's car and that actor's and both were beaten engines at high boost. If the bearing failure (the better way to phrase it is saying oiling issue) was a common thing, we would see stock engines fail too.

    Kioken and Drew's engines failed not because they tried to improve their engines, because the meth tank was empty or the passages were clogged. This is the biggest problem with meth based tunes. If you run out of race gas, the engine will stop with no harms to the engine. But if you run out of meth, the car will keep going and going.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    Thanks. So what I've gathered is that if I want an ESS 600 kit or a VF 620 kit and want to add meth, I should just add a traditional meth kit and not tune for it. Maybe on a dyno it will be worth 15 WHP but in a real world situation where I'm on a track and IAT's are climbing, the meth will allow me to sustain power levels without dropping off (perhaps significantly). But fine tuning specifically for meth is a dangeous risk as it may increase power quite a bit but significantly increases the risk of (expensive) engine failure.
    basically.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    was a common thing, we would see stock engines fail too.
    Stock engines have failed.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    basically.
    Vast oversimplification.

    Meth isn't a dangerous risk. You aren't playing russian roulette with your motor. A race gas tune isn't dangerous either. Depending on the tune, it may be safer as you know what race fuel you are running and can get a bad batch from a pump for example.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Vast oversimplification.

    Meth isn't a dangerous risk. You aren't playing russian roulette with your motor. A race gas tune isn't dangerous either. Depending on the tune, it may be safer as you know what race fuel you are running and can get a bad batch from a pump for example.
    its not a "vast oversimplification"


    how much meth testing have you done?

    tuning for methanol is exponentially increasing your risk. you cant show me a platform that hasnt had catostrophic failures because they wanted to run meth instead of racefuel

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    how much meth testing have you done?
    Far more than you on the S65.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    you cant show me a platform that hasnt had catostrophic failures because they wanted to run meth instead of racefuel
    Adding meth will make your car safer with pump. Tuning for it and making more power isn't exponentially increasing your risk if there isn't user error.

    What is the exponential increase? It's without meth if you are tuned for it that the risk increases.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Far more than you on the S65.



    Adding meth will make your car safer with pump. Tuning for it and making more power isn't exponentially increasing your risk if there isn't user error.

    What is the exponential increase? It's without meth if you are tuned for it that the risk increases.
    on the s65 yes, so you have 2-3 months on the s65, i have 0. I have 2 years on the N54, thousands of logs, and hundreds of late night hours reading about, combined with conversations with people looking for the same or different answers, users and tuners

    Ill say it again- IF YOU TUNE FOR METHANOL INJECTION, YOU ARE EXPONENTIALLY INCREASING YOUR RISK.

    its a fuel, if you do not have a seperate fuel system and the calculations and failsafes in place to run a secondary fuel system, it is-refer to above

    if you tune for meth, you are changing advance, and AFR

    so basically, you are tuning for 100 octane. run your 100 octane file on 93 octane and tell us all, how long you can get away with that for

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    on the s65 yes, so you have 2-3 months on the s65, i have 0. I have 2 years on the N54, thousands of logs, and hundreds of late night hours reading about, combined with conversations with people looking for the same or different answers, users and tuners
    Which motor are we discussing?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Ill say it again- IF YOU TUNE FOR METHANOL INJECTION, YOU ARE EXPONENTIALLY INCREASING YOUR RISK.
    So then you tune for race gas you are exponentially increasing your risk?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    if you tune for meth, you are changing advance, and AFR

    so basically, you are tuning for 100 octane. run your 100 octane file on 93 octane and tell us all, how long you can get away with that for
    Exactly my point. You aren't taking a huge risk if you run 100 octane. You are taking a huge risk running 93 with a 100 tune.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Which motor are we discussing?

    any motor

    So then you tune for race gas you are exponentially increasing your risk?
    its not the same thing. you dont run out of race fuel in the middle of WOT, and rely on a lower octane fuel.
    but to entertain you, sure, if you have a fuel supply issue mid WOT, chances of catastrophy are much higher with an aggressive racefuel tune

    Exactly my point. You aren't taking a huge risk if you run 100 octane. You are taking a huge risk running 93 with a 100 tune.
    right, but your not running 100 octane when running 93 octane, your running 93 enhanced with meth. you have an effective octane, that relies on an inferior pump/lines

    factory fuel systems are intricantly involved with a cars ecu. meth controllers can be, but never as good as the factory. too many operating and likely failing parts increase your chances of boom boom. run the octane you require, add methanol for cooling and consistancy.
    if you want to run fuel as a "bandaid" which is what tuning for meth is, you need to accept those risks. S65 specifically, why do that?
    why not just raise boost by 1 psi and tune it for 93 octane?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    any motor
    They are not all created equal.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    its not the same thing. you dont run out of race fuel in the middle of WOT, and rely on a lower octane fuel.
    but to entertain you, sure, if you have a fuel supply issue mid WOT, chances of catastrophy are much higher with an aggressive racefuel tune
    It's not the exact same thing in the sense that meth is not fuel but supplementing your main fuel source.

    If you have a fuel supply issue with 91 octane you can have problems too. A clogged injector can happen either way for example.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    ight, but your not running 100 octane when running 93 octane, your running 93 enhanced with meth. you have an effective octane, that relies on an inferior pump/lines
    If you run 93 octane instead of 100 its user error. If you run out of meth, it's user error. Same concept.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    if you want to run fuel as a "bandaid" which is what tuning for meth is, you need to accept those risks.
    Meth offers many benefits. It is a band-aid if you can't make power on the stock fuel system. Meth+91 isn't a band aid, it's offering detonation resistance aka increased octane. Take advantage of it if you want to it isn't risky to do so if done properly.

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    show us a motor that when tuned for 100 octane, will run just as long on 93 octane
    how often does a fuel supply issue happen with the factory/primary fuel system? and if it does, what happens
    how often does a meth system have an issue? what happens when it does?
    running out of meth is user error, but what happens when that 1 lin gets a clog or rupture or pump failure, or inconsitant distrubution, or improper water/meth mix than tuned for?

    is that still user error? sure if your only issue is running out, its your fault, but any of the much more probable system failures is not user error, its just an error, and they happen, much, much, much more ofetn on a meth system than a factory fuel system

    last point, yes, it has many benefits
    it allows you tune tune higher advance and need to alter AFR- sound familiar? like a when you tune for race fuel. its a band-aid, if you use it as a band-aid, ie not using actual race fuel. the point you didnt respond to, was if the motor can take it, why increase your risk tuning for meth, when you could just as easily add 1 psi and tune for your pumpgas.
    even on 91 octane, what is the difference in power between say 6 psi, and 7 psi, 20-30 hp?

    lets realisticly say at 6 psi 91 octane, we make 530hp. add meth -untuned, probably jump to 540-545. now lets get crazy and tune for it adding another 20-30 hp, lets just say 25. now tuned for it, we have 570, 6 psi, 91 octane tuned for meth

    lets now go to 7psi, 91 octane should make about 550 (if 1 psi is 20 hp). lets add meth, we'll stick with the 15 hp gain, netting 565.

    5 hp worth the risk? not to me. sure, now you can tune for it, and do 590ish, but again, risk Vs reward. why not just bump to 8 psi tuned safely for it? you could always once again, add the meth for cooling benefits and consistancy..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    show us a motor that when tuned for 100 octane, will run just as long on 93 octane
    Why wouldn't it? You want the best detonation resistance you can get.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    how often does a fuel supply issue happen with the factory/primary fuel system? and if it does, what happens
    It's rare, but it can happen. So what?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    running out of meth is user error, but what happens when that 1 lin gets a clog or rupture or pump failure, or inconsitant distrubution, or improper water/meth mix than tuned for?
    What happens when an injector gets clogged? Or if you get a bad batch of gas? Or if any numbers of things. We playing what if games?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    sure if your only issue is running out, its your fault,
    Yes, there you go.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    ets realisticly say at 6 psi 91 octane, we make 530hp. add meth -untuned, probably jump to 540-545. now lets get crazy and tune for it adding another 20-30 hp, lets just say 25. now tuned for it, we have 570, 6 psi, 91 octane tuned for meth

    lets now go to 7psi, 91 octane should make about 550 (if 1 psi is 20 hp). lets add meth, we'll stick with the 15 hp gain, netting 565.

    5 hp worth the risk? not to me. sure, now you can tune for it, and do 590ish, but again, risk Vs reward. why not just bump to 8 psi tuned safely for it? you could always once again, add the meth for cooling benefits and consistancy..
    Up to you to decide if you want the best tune for your setup or not. If you run meth, be prepared to keep your tank filled. If that is too much a "risky" endeavor for you then don't.

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    i meant, show a motor that will run on the 100 octane tune, only running 93

    it is rare, very rare, and all sorts of warning and failsafes are tripped if it happens, that was the point

    refer to above, that doesnt apply to meth kits

    right, its up to you to decide, but thats the point, your RISK and CHANCE of catasrophy are increased. There are better safer options to attain the power one is looking for.

    The point of it wasnt why or why not use meth, we all agree it has benefits. its how to use it

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i meant, show a motor that will run on the 100 octane tune, only running 93
    Depends on the ECU of that motor but obviously that would be a huge risk and likely would lead to a failure. Just like leaving a meth tank empty.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    right, its up to you to decide, but thats the point, your RISK and CHANCE of catasrophy are increased.
    Chance of catastrophe? What, increases how much of you keep your meth tank filled? What is going to happen exactly?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    There are better safer options to attain the power one is looking for.
    Like running MS109 all the time which isn't realistic.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Depends on the ECU of that motor but obviously that would be a huge risk and likely would lead to a failure. Just like leaving a meth tank empty.

    doesnt depend on the ecu. its going to fail waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before it normally would

    Chance of catastrophe? What, increases how much of you keep your meth tank filled? What is going to happen exactly?

    jesus man, i guess i didnt do a good job of oversimplifying it before. if youtune for 100 octane, but only run on 93, the motor will fail, quickly. so, knowing that you cannot run a 100 tune on 93 octane, when the methanol does not reach the motor, for any number of likely and common reasons, it is no longer running on an effective octane #, it is running on 93 octane, and.. as stated, again,its going to fail waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before it normally would. most cases almost immediately.

    Like running MS109 all the time which isn't realistic.

    by your reasoning, why not? you have to fill a meth tank, you can surely run on ms109 all day everyday..

    bold

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