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    Stacking Tunes Procede/Cobb ATR

    Thought I’d write a little FYI on stacking. Primarily just going over some of the basics and what I do…hopefully this may help others be more comfortable with this setup.


    Well I just started typing and turned out to be very long and maybe confusing, but ask any questions.


    First, simply, what does Procede do? It has couple primary responsibilities:
    Boost: The Procede intercepts the TMAP signal and takes this info to directly control the boost solenoids based on a simple WG map and PID. This works very well compared to the DME at higher boost levels… basically the user can dial in any boost curve desired. The Procede then communicates actual boost to the DME based on the CANbus boost setpoint value.
    Throttle: Throttle is measured directly and boost is set based on foot position after a certain point. Up to this point, boost is set at about 1psi higher than DME boost setpoint, with potentially some variation based on boost response. I have always used 100% for gain, since experimenting with less, I found boost targeting after a shift slower with anything less than 100%. But I don’t know what boost gain specifically alters. DME throttle mapping will be the primary effect of boost setpoint.
    AFR: Set by biasing O2 signal. About 3 (or 4) points richer and leaner max ranges.
    Fuel Pressure: how the Procede increases fuel volume. It takes the rail pressure voltage and reduces it so the DME thinks it has not reached desired setpoint and thus more fuel volume is added. It is not crucial to meet pressure target, as the DME will compensate in IPW also.
    Ignition Timing: The crank angle signal to the DME is altered to directly change ignition timing.
    Meth: Tuning is altered based on meth flow, so max aggression at 100% flow. If have PWM valve, DC can be set for various boost and max flow is also set based on DC.


    So the purpose of stacking is to tune parameters like AFR, VANOS, and increase fueling base. The standard Procede on the stock tune works very well, but my motivation was more out of curiosity since I have both tunes. Also I am hoping for cooling system options in the future.


    For someone already running Cobb primary advantage is meth integration. Very good peace of mind knowing your tuning is set per the conditions. Gives more opportunity for higher aggression.


    Also I don’t like the peaking torque curve of Cobb because so far it seems that mid-range boost has to be raised in order to increase top-end boost. This peak doesn’t really help acceleration by much, but instead just adds to clutch, turbo wear, heat… basically unnecessary in my opinion.


    Settings
    ATR Load: I like a load target well below my max boost settings so that hotter temps won’t effect my desired settings. I set around 140 which is about 11psi peak at 105degF. You can alter “load limit factor ECT” to account for this though.
    ATR Throttle: you can copy the desired “Torque Request” tables from Cobb maps. Keep in mind that some of these maps, even some LT, will max load at <100%... Procede will then be linear to 100%.
    ATR AFR: set what you desire. Keep in mind that your actual load will be higher then the max DME setpoint so try and correlate these based on Procede setpoints. Depending on when you max load based on throttle you may have steady AFR for multiple boost setpoints. You can keep the progression by using the Procede offset if you want, but not necessary. For rev2.5 this is 0-50 = -4-0 point offset and 0-4 points for 50-100. Procede value of 50 is Cobb setpoint (pass through) which I use across the table.
    ATR Ignition Timing: simplest method is to set you desired timing at max throttle load for WOT and increase down to about load of 90. Below 90 stock mapping ok. Actually this can get a little complicated and there's various ways to do this with minor offsetting. A lot depends on your throttle mapping also. Be conservative at first.
    Procede Timing offset: used mainly for the off-meth, less aggressive map.
    NOTE: I add some offsetting for retard and advance to increase flexibility for various conditions.
    Procede Open Loop: because I set a fairly lowish load target through ATR I still use fuel pressure biasing, but at a much lower offset then Procede alone.
    ATR VANOS: transport intake and exhaust moving warm tables from the Cobb map that’s similar to your settings. And depending on the difference between Procede, Cobb boost setpoints you may want to increase some values in the lower load cells.


    Some notes:
    Logging CAN DME setpoint and/or actual will give a good indication of the boost to load, so you can set your mapping accordingly. Or you can log your Cobb base map with the AP.


    For loading maps, clearing codes with AP while car is off you do NOT have to be in map0 (pass through).


    Some logs:
    First is boost and boost setpoint… notice how closely they match. DME setpoint and Procede setpoint are also graphed together. Fuel trims match nicely around 0. This is at OL of 40%, so I have plenty of room.


    The next log is stepping throttle, again showing the boost control. Notice DME and Procede setpoints following closely by about 1psi until DME is maxed. AFR very steady, and as you can see steady from 10 to 14psi… this is because max load is reached around 70% throttle. I actually like this because its easier to tune the top end, but truthfully some of the Cobb throttle mapping is slightly confusing and haven’t wanted to really mess with it yet. Another note at the very beginning of the pull, you see boost slightly higher then setpoint… this is common with the n54 since the throttle is partly closed at this point.


    Oh boy, done I think. I guess my reason for writing the long thread is to maybe get more ATR peeps interested in stacking… it is the most powerful tuning combo at this time mainly because you can increase meth tuning aggression with more peace of mind and sustain higher boost in the top end for more average power.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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    Nice write-up, even though, I do not understand much. I have Procede (Cobb soon), I'm FBO, have RB turbos and a PWM Meth kit but I do not have the appropriate maps (Procede and Cobb). Maybe someone can offer proper maps soon.

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    Its a good write-up, i believe hundreds of people have been stacking JB4 with ATR for a while now, probably more

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B///MW Click here to enlarge
    Nice write-up, even though, I do not understand much. I have Procede (Cobb soon), I'm FBO, have RB turbos and a PWM Meth kit but I do not have the appropriate maps (Procede and Cobb). Maybe someone can offer proper maps soon.
    I could create some mapping for you. Pm me your email. But you may want to concentrate on dialing in procede alone first for a good comparison.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Its a good write-up, i believe hundreds of people have been stacking JB4 with ATR for a while now, probably more
    yes of course and the basics would apply. But most have been stacking on ots and many passthrough only i believe.

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    I see the value in controlling boost from the piggy, but i guess my question is how much boost can be held in the midrange-to redline using stock turbos? I've seen 17-18psi to redline on JB4 & procede users running meth/E85, but at these boost levels the turbos are outside of their efficiency plateu. Has anyone done any testing to see how much hp is being made with each psi increase in upper RPM's? I would love to see some data to see what the pros/cons are.

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    The only people who would benefit in stacking a procede with an ATR map are the ones who are stuck with a PWM meth kit.

    With the HFS-4 and other external failsafes on the market, there is no need to stack. I stacked in the past because ATR wasnt available. Now that it is, there's no point unless:

    1. Youre stuck with a Vishnu PWM meth kit
    2. CAN gauges

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Its a good write-up, i believe hundreds of people have been stacking JB4 with ATR for a while now, probably more
    In a relative sense, very few have stacked because very few have a need to (most have stock turbos).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The only people who would benefit in stacking a procede with an ATR map are the ones who are stuck with a PWM meth kit.

    With the HFS-4 and other external failsafes on the market, there is no need to stack. I stacked in the past because ATR wasnt available. Now that it is, there's no point unless:

    1. Youre stuck with a Vishnu PWM meth kit
    2. CAN gauges
    Can you explain the external failsafe options and then explain the piggy tuning approach to meth integration, now think and you have your answer on why one is preferred and better (although you may not understand the better part). The other reason is peaking torque, boost curve... don't like it. And I love the flexibility in timing maps and being able to make minor changes with a laptop, not needing to load a new map.

    You are not tinkering with your car any longer, so you really don't understand... your last experiences with Cobb was Rob not being able to satisfy your needs in boost control, thus the piggy (which you have currently).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Can you explain the external failsafe options and then explain the piggy tuning approach to meth integration, now think and you have your answer on why one is preferred and better (although you may not understand the better part). The other reason is peaking torque, boost curve... don't like it. And I love the flexibility in timing maps and being able to make minor changes with a laptop, not needing to load a new map.

    You are not tinkering with your car any longer, so you really don't understand... your last experiences with Cobb was Rob not being able to satisfy your needs in boost control, thus the piggy (which you have currently).
    1. Vent vacuum from the wastegates like the HFS-4 does on a no flow condition.
    2. an external trigger to an existing FSB like the aquamist or snow flow sensors.

    The only benefit with the piggy meth approach is you transition to pump gas targets when the meth system fails.

    Real world, if your meth system fails and the piggy transitions to a different map, you already lost your race or ruined any run you might be doing.

    And you are correct, rob@cobb was too busy custom tuning my cars abnormally tight wastegates. And this was before ATR came out.

    So again, this ties to the fact you are stuck with the Procede due to the fact your meth kit is rendered useless without it.

    And please don't start the shiv approach of acting like I don't know something unless you are ready to prove it in your response. The only thing you shown in your response is a passive-aggressive tone trying to deflect towards my car and no real answer to my comments.

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    And the reason for the piggy is because ATR was unavailable at that time. Car ran beautifully on stock turbos, with RBs it seems every set requires custom tuning. I haven't jumped on it because 1. I may have to sell the car because of 2. Which is I have a baby on the way.

    If the wife lets me keep the car though, see you in Mexico. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The only people who would benefit in stacking a procede with an ATR map are the ones who are stuck with a PWM meth kit.

    With the HFS-4 and other external failsafes on the market, there is no need to stack. I stacked in the past because ATR wasnt available. Now that it is, there's no point unless:

    1. Youre stuck with a Vishnu PWM meth kit
    2. CAN gauges
    Having ATR is great but having worked with it I don't see N54 piggybacks going anywhere any time soon. It's just so much easier and more direct to do some elements of the tuning with the piggyback.

    A few random piggy features just off the top of my head other than the obvious meth, absolute boost targeting, and can gauges:

    1) Gear adjustable boost limiting
    2) E85 auto tuning (when mixture or potency changes, boost targets change, same goes for meth mixtures)
    3) More sensitive run lean and over boost safety systems
    4) bogfix / load spoofing during shifts
    5) More flexible adjustment of throttle blade sensitivity with regard to boost regulation

    Where the flash tune excels is in setting the AFR and advance tables. Although, they have not added gear dependent advance adjustments and shift/load change adjustments which would come in handy IMHO. On the E85 maps we need the AFR tables to be a function of the overall aggression and the flash tune isn't setup to accommodate that either. The boost control with the flash is OK but tuning it is a PITA and not having it able to learn/adapt itself is a drawback IMHO. Several tables are still missing from the boost control section I suspect.

    Long story short, for higher HP levels I think the tune stack is still the way to go. I would do it for the CAN features alone. I drove around the car doing Cobb only stuff (map 0) and felt naked not being able to instantly see boost and advance in dash. Not to mention I hate staring at that TPMS light. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Having ATR is great but having worked with it I don't see N54 piggybacks going anywhere any time soon. It's just so much easier and more direct to do some elements of the tuning with the piggyback.

    A few random piggy features just off the top of my head other than the obvious meth, absolute boost targeting, and can gauges:

    1) Gear adjustable boost limiting
    true
    2) E85 auto tuning (when mixture or potency changes, boost targets change, same goes for meth mixtures)
    true
    3) More sensitive run lean and over boost safety systems
    the Cobb way of controlling over boost works great... I learned it the hard way Click here to enlarge
    4) bogfix / load spoofing during shifts
    you can dial out the bog if it's an issue with ATR if you know what to look for. AFAIK, @Laloosh bogged on every tune except Cobb so who knows.
    5) More flexible adjustment of throttle blade sensitivity with regard to boost regulation
    When the WGDC is close to dialed in with ATR, you will see that the DME applies minor trimming of TPS instead of huge abrupt closures that look like peaks and valleys.

    Where the flash tune excels is in setting the AFR and advance tables. Although, they have not added gear dependent advance adjustments and shift/load change adjustments which would come in handy IMHO. On the E85 maps we need the AFR tables to be a function of the overall aggression and the flash tune isn't setup to accommodate that either. The boost control with the flash is OK but tuning it is a PITA and not having it able to learn/adapt itself is a drawback IMHO. Several tables are still missing from the boost control section I suspect.

    Yes dialing in boost takes some work, especially with cars like mine, but any adjustments that need to be made for stock turbo cars are granular at best.

    Long story short, for higher HP levels I think the tune stack is still the way to go. I would do it for the CAN features alone. I drove around the car doing Cobb only stuff (map 0) and felt naked not being able to instantly see boost and advance in dash. Not to mention I hate staring at that TPMS light.

    You can mount the AP and monitor boost (or timing) through the handheld.

    Click here to enlarge
    Wee

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    Tuning boost with the Cobb is a little bit like trying to reply to the post above with your replies embedded and mixed up with mine. I can make it work but it takes additional effort. Click here to enlarge

    Sure you can monitor boost with the AP or do a log but that's not the same as having stealth gauges turn on and show you boost, advance, or meth, every time you get on the gas without having to set anything up before hand. A lot of these things are subjective, though. I find logging via the Cobb a real headache compared to how I log with the JB4. Some may find the Cobb approach easier. Net/net if I saw everything in ATP that I needed to provide the level of tuning/flexibility we can now I'd have BMS sell them with locked maps. It would probably be just as if not more profitable. But I don't think it's there yet and certain things may never get there without a lot of additional work.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    In a relative sense, very few have stacked because very few have a need to (most have stock turbos).
    i know quite a few who stack for meth and guages, and most of those like to up the boost a psi or 2 as well

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i know quite a few who stack for meth and guages, and most of those like to up the boost a psi or 2 as well
    Right, for meth and gauges the piggy stacking works great.

    You don't need to stack to get more boost though. Not anymore.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Tuning boost with the Cobb is a little bit like trying to reply to the post above with your replies embedded and mixed up with mine. I can make it work but it takes additional effort. Click here to enlarge

    Sure you can monitor boost with the AP or do a log but that's not the same as having stealth gauges turn on and show you boost, advance, or meth, every time you get on the gas without having to set anything up before hand. A lot of these things are subjective, though. I find logging via the Cobb a real headache compared to how I log with the JB4. Some may find the Cobb approach easier. Net/net if I saw everything in ATP that I needed to provide the level of tuning/flexibility we can now I'd have BMS sell them with locked maps. It would probably be just as if not more profitable. But I don't think it's there yet and certain things may never get there without a lot of additional work.
    Dialing in boost isn't as simple as filling in some cells on the piggy interface, that's for sure. But it can be done, simply to have all the tuning in the ecu. My point, at least for the purpose of this thread is to infer that Cobb alone can handle just about everything perfectly fine and that the OP is going this route because his meth kit is married to his tune.

    In regards to Cobb logging, yes it would be great to have more monitors logged simultaneously but that would come at the cost of polling rate.

    In terms of meth safety there are external failsafes available, many of which are being used today. Ideally I'd love to have a JB4 induce a throttle closure on a meth flow issue for those who want all the tuning in the flash.

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    I'm running 100% E85 on ATR and have been having a blast tuning the setup on stock turbos. Tell me where the 100% E85 maps are on these piggies you guys are using!? Boost tuning is a major PITA with ATR, yes. I sure hope cobb rewrites this logic all together.

    So that leads me to bumping:
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3
    I see the value in controlling boost from the piggy, but i guess my question is how much boost can be held in the midrange-to redline using stock turbos? I've seen 17-18psi to redline on JB4 & procede users running meth/E85, but at these boost levels the turbos are outside of their efficiency plateu. Has anyone done any testing to see how much hp is being made with each psi increase in upper RPM's? I would love to see some data to see what the pros/cons are.
    Can anyone, regardless of tune, expound on the benefit of piggie boost control holding higher boost to redline as compared to ATR (or what you think ATR can/can't do)? I shall reserve my ATR logs for a proper interest-piquing retort!

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I would love to see a flash log with an "increasing" WGDC.

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    What do you mean? Every log of mine starts at 57%, then drops when I hit the boost target, and then rises back to 57% by about 5500 as the turbos can't keep up. But I'm at high elevation on stock turbos running about as much boost as I can. I had to tweak the P-factor map to get it to do that, though.

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    From what I have seen you are stuck with a similar WGDC in the top-end and mid-range... start higher you end higher, but you can't increase significantly. I run about 10% more WGDC at 6k then mid-range.

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    Congrats Myst but if you sell the car I want your RBs Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    And the reason for the piggy is because ATR was unavailable at that time. Car ran beautifully on stock turbos, with RBs it seems every set requires custom tuning. I haven't jumped on it because 1. I may have to sell the car because of 2. Which is I have a baby on the way.

    If the wife lets me keep the car though, see you in Mexico. Click here to enlarge
    2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends Click here to enlarge

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    Good work Josh. As Terry said, stacking flash & piggy makes sense for high HP cars.

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    Post edited to insert pics inline to resize.

    Look at you with a good contribution.
    Chrome Space Bar Issue: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...338#post738338


    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Post edited to insert pics inline to resize.

    Look at you with a good contribution.
    actually since you are editing, under "throttle" there's a mistake... instead of boost gain it should be boost response. These are 2 very different parameters.

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    Edited.
    Chrome Space Bar Issue: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...338#post738338


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