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  1. #26
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    the thing is, the map I have logs of its the first map I was made. I went back and they made me a more aggressive map which I was seeing timing corrections with on the way home. so I switched back to their original map and still getting these corrections. I'm waiting on a revised map for the more aggressive map but never received it. I guess all the money I paid wasnt enough to get a revised map. so I'm hoping they get back to me with it because akuma told me the tune was on the conservative side and could be more aggressive. but then my timing corrections were blamed on a more aggressive map. so I'm a bit confused, but want my car running properly. especially for what I paid.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Timing corrections are a great indicator for tuning being over aggressive but some corrections are fine and reasonable as its basically the DME doing its work based on a very dynamic running environment. Some cars will have corrections even at cruise, very low load and most stock cars correct all the time too. Try logging a stock (stg0) map for instance on pump 91 octane, in most cases it'll have a good share of corrections too Click here to enlarge

  2. #27
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    DZ, so you are saying this is ok for timing... you have changed. Even if the engine can handle it, this curve is no good and will rob power.

    OP, ask your tuner to turn down timing. Also i don't like the meth nozzles in series (if im viewing your pic correctly) its better if they were on opposite sides of the pipe and if possoble 3" apart along the length. You could plug those and use aquamist bungs in the silicone hose.

  3. #28
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    Joshboody being Debby Downer Click here to enlarge I told the OP merely that his engine will be fine and his numbers are good...some corrections are ok and do happen even stock...some cars heavily correct on cruise...i'm speaking strictly from experience with ATR/ATP...was actually just out with a local car getting them dialed in on our pump 94...in our case we spent 2.5 hours tinkering and came out with some solid gains but i dont just slap on stock timing like some, dont even up boost past OTS settings, in fact i lower it in certain areas in favour of timing among other things we try, such as custom throttle mappings for instance

    And no i haven't changed, I just learn something new every day or try to
    Click here to enlarge

  4. #29
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    That timing correction looks to be about 3-4 degrees but it's happening at around 13 psi boost........still above 10 degrees overall though.

    What's telling here is that the OP states he thinks meth is not flowing correctly at higher rpms, and if you notice his intake temps go down initially and then start to rise back up......all in the same gear.

    At an 80/20 meth mix that should not be happening.

    I can go from 3rd-4th and still have my intake temps dropping by the time I let off. And that's with a 70/30 mix.

    Maybe the knock event and the rising intake temps are indicating a methflow issue??

  5. #30
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    That IAT curve is similar on my car as well on a longer pull where things heat up and I had 3 nozzles flow tested into a bucket regular basis. It all depends how efficient his intercooler is, intercooler piping as well. My ER up-pipe and charge pipe will be wrapped like @sniz pointed out on e90 a while ago. I think that's a great idea. The proximity of the coolant rubber hose to the post-fmic up pipe makes the charge going through heat up and it could be nicely prevented with a heat wrap.

    I wouldn't classify timing corrections as knock at all. It is the DME controlling timing and in some cases it might be knock related but there is a code for knock called "glow ignition". If knock actually happens you'll get that dreaded code. Actual knock is very uncommon in these cars as the DME reacts to not go there based off the material in the injector tips which through vibration provides feedback to the DME on the combustion chamber situation/events. Just have a look at the stock tune under WOT or any tune at cruise at 2k rpm without stabbing throttle. In 70% of the situations the DME is correcting, sometimes all the way to -10deg corrections on some cylinders in a lot of logs I've seen online as well as tuning. Its just timing control.

    Nonetheless, I'd definitely double check meth flow, testing it into a bucket to confirm everything is legit, run the nozzles further up stream and run the appropriate size nozzles.
    Click here to enlarge

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    DZ, so you are saying this is ok for timing... you have changed. Even if the engine can handle it, this curve is no good and will rob power.

    OP, ask your tuner to turn down timing. Also i don't like the meth nozzles in series (if im viewing your pic correctly) its better if they were on opposite sides of the pipe and if possoble 3" apart along the length. You could plug those and use aquamist bungs in the silicone hose.
    Have you ever logged your car with timing on all six cylinders? Care to post that log?

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    So all in all it sounds like I have multiple issues here? I guess tweeking the map a bit isnt going to help me? If I cant get any help from the tuner. would anyone here be willing to work with me on a map to get my car running how it should? And as far as the meth issues go, could it just be adjustments in the controller? Last I talked to dzenno he mentioned my meth seems to be flowing just fine but to maybe add bigger jets. What should I do?

  8. #33
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    On your aquamist gauge there is a little "B" at the end of the bar flow..
    If this "B" lights up when in boost then your meth is flowing within range set for WL and WH.
    As long as the "B" stays lit the entire time your in boost then your flowing just fine..
    If the B is not lit then your failsafe should kick in thus lowering your boost..

  9. #34
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    @woptang22 , can you flow test your meth kit to a bucket first to find out what you're actually flowing. Also take a closeup pic of the nozzles as they're color coded and I can tell what you're running currently and what you should be flowing. Let's start with that.

    Have you tried to at least talk to Akuma to look into this for you? You paid for that tune very well but I have a feeling they'll want additional payment in helping you troubleshoot just like any other shop would really as they need to cover labour costs.
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #35
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    As far as flow testing what do I do take the nozzles off and then what? How do I actually do the test?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    @woptang22 , can you flow test your meth kit to a bucket first to find out what you're actually flowing. Also take a closeup pic of the nozzles as they're color coded and I can tell what you're running currently and what you should be flowing. Let's start with that.

  11. #36
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    I know the B you are talking about but shouldnt the gauge light up with approx 4 or 5 blue bars indicating the meth if flowing?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
    On your aquamist gauge there is a little "B" at the end of the bar flow..
    If this "B" lights up when in boost then your meth is flowing within range set for WL and WH.
    As long as the "B" stays lit the entire time your in boost then your flowing just fine..
    If the B is not lit then your failsafe should kick in thus lowering your boost..

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    I know the B you are talking about but shouldnt the gauge light up with approx 4 or 5 blue bars indicating the meth if flowing?
    Yes it should. Let's start with those pics. Just closeup of the nozzle tops. There's a plastic ring at the bottom of the tip.
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    I know the B you are talking about but shouldnt the gauge light up with approx 4 or 5 blue bars indicating the meth if flowing?
    Yes as long as meth is flowing and the "SC" on the gauge is set correctly (default is 12 o'clock position - I have mine at 1 o'clock position with 2 1.2mm nozzles runnign 100% meth and get 6 bar of low )

    But start with Dzenno's request and take the nozzles out and spray into a bucket to confirm meth is actually flowing..

  14. #39
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    oK let me get those pics for you. thanks for everyones help.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Yes it should. Let's start with those pics. Just closeup of the nozzle tops. There's a plastic ring at the bottom of the tip.

  15. #40
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    ok I think my sc is at 11 oclock I was getting about 4-5 blue bars. So I thought that was pretty good maybe Ill go to 12 oclcock with the SC.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
    Yes as long as meth is flowing and the "SC" on the gauge is set correctly (default is 12 o'clock position - I have mine at 1 o'clock position with 2 1.2mm nozzles runnign 100% meth and get 6 bar of low )

    But start with Dzenno's request and take the nozzles out and spray into a bucket to confirm meth is actually flowing..

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    heres the nozzles

    Click here to enlarge

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    more

    Click here to enlarge

  18. #43
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    You're running two 1mm nozzles which should be enough. Next up, disconnect the line coming INTO the FAV and grab your HFS manual and see how to flow test it. Grab a canister of some sort and shove the line into it.

    On HFS-4, you turn ignition on (engine off), and on the controller (inside the box) you disable the FAV and set the SYS test jumper as far as i recall...Check your manual for it and let's flow test. Run it to a canister for 30seconds (time it with your phone or something else of a timer) and see how much you end up flowing into a bucket.

    Two 1mm nozzles should end up flowing a minimum of 850-900ml/min. According to charts it'll be 980ml/min at 160psi line pressure. Here's the flow chart:

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  19. #44
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    Thank you Ill have to try that when I get home from work and then we can go from there. Thanks for the explanation.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    You're running two 1mm nozzles which should be enough. Next up, disconnect the line coming INTO the FAV and grab your HFS manual and see how to flow test it. Grab a canister of some sort and shove the line into it.

    On HFS-4, you turn ignition on (engine off), and on the controller (inside the box) you disable the FAV and set the SYS test jumper as far as i recall...Check your manual for it and let's flow test. Run it to a canister for 30seconds (time it with your phone or something else of a timer) and see how much you end up flowing into a bucket.

    Two 1mm nozzles should end up flowing a minimum of 850-900ml/min. According to charts it'll be 980ml/min at 160psi line pressure. Here's the flow chart:

    http://howertonengineering.com/wp-co...2-jetratem.jpg

  20. #45
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    there's a lot of misinformation in this thread from a certain new tuner... sorry to call you out like this, but people will view what you say as fact now. Likely there is NOT any cylinder monitoring from the injectors or spark plugs as some have alluded to... even the engineer was not sure and from the wiring to each injector I don't think its possible (but i'm not very knowledgeable in electronics). Even if there was monitoring, you CANNOT pick up abnormal cylinder conditions without there being an abnormal cylinder condition (detonation). That being said, the DME is very quick to correct once any detonation is measured thus the resilience of the n54... so it's not super critical as has been proven through the very few engine issues despite many with similar conditions.

    It's knocking and should be tuned correctly and/or hardware fixed, but no need to sideline the car in the mean time... I personally wouldn't drive it too hard, but I'm also more conservative then most.

    And yes Myst I have logged all my cylinders and very confident, with the info I have gathered, that what happens on 1 cylinder is fairly indicative of them all... at least for my car. Of course I would like to log all cylinders at any time though... there's trade offs for each tuning option.

    And rarely do I have corrections at part throttle.

  21. #46
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    ^ and this advice comes from a man running a piggyback with zero visibilty into any timing corrections at all...ok booooody Click here to enlarge

    You want to continue let's see some logs off your car at stock loads in both cruise and WOT and we'll discuss from there...throw up a couple n54 dynos you've done too while ur at it or anything you have...i can tell u that more often than not whenever you go WOT with your overly conservative procede setup you're correcting on pump gas..set it for something like 12psi Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 07-30-2012 at 01:07 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  22. #47
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    Weren't you also the guy telling me i was wrong about getting more fuel from the car by flashi.g your fuel targets? Also telling me that o2 bias and fuel pressure were all thete was to it and by following that approach the dme will just do the same in the end and cap out the same way fuel wise?

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    there's a lot of misinformation in this thread from a certain new tuner... sorry to call you out like this, but people will view what you say as fact now. Likely there is NOT any cylinder monitoring from the injectors or spark plugs as some have alluded to... even the engineer was not sure and from the wiring to each injector I don't think its possible (but i'm not very knowledgeable in electronics). Even if there was monitoring, you CANNOT pick up abnormal cylinder conditions without there being an abnormal cylinder condition (detonation). That being said, the DME is very quick to correct once any detonation is measured thus the resilience of the n54... so it's not super critical as has been proven through the very few engine issues despite many with similar conditions.

    It's knocking and should be tuned correctly and/or hardware fixed, but no need to sideline the car in the mean time... I personally wouldn't drive it too hard, but I'm also more conservative then most.

    And yes Myst I have logged all my cylinders and very confident, with the info I have gathered, that what happens on 1 cylinder is fairly indicative of them all... at least for my car. Of course I would like to log all cylinders at any time though... there's trade offs for each tuning option.

    And rarely do I have corrections at part throttle.
    Sure you can. Ever log knock volt?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Weren't you also the guy telling me i was wrong about getting more fuel from the car by flashi.g your fuel targets? Also telling me that o2 bias and fuel pressure were all thete was to it and by following that approach the dme will just do the same in the end and cap out the same way fuel wise?

    Click here to enlarge
    Dzenno, I just wanted to thank you again for taking time out of your day to help me troubleshoot my boost issues. The car is an absolute beast now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Even if there was monitoring, you CANNOT pick up abnormal cylinder conditions without there being an abnormal cylinder condition (detonation).
    False. If you've done work with cylinder pressure analysis on a particular engine, you can predict when detonation is likely to occur due to conditions in cylinder. Audi did this with several of their engines, in particular the 2.7 biturbo, using spark voltages to determine cylinder pressure. When conditions approach the detonation threshold, the engine management pulls timing to prevent detonation, while having knock sensors as backup for unexpected detonation.

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