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    External combustion rocket Anti-lag



    Nice to see this trickling down to street cars, full spool right from idle Click here to enlarge Screen is displaying turbo RPM.

    Car in question is an 07 STi Spec C on a Pectel standalone

    More info here : http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...ag-teaser.aspx
    H O O N

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    External combustion rocket Anti-lag



    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ocket-Anti-lag

    Cross posting from the advanced tech section since this sub-forum seems to get more traffic.

    Looks like a possible implementation to solve the response gap of a large single on the N54 vs upgraded twins.

    Opinions?
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    Probably not a good idea if you have catalytic converters. Otherwise, this might be pretty cool.

    EDIT: I just watched the video. This doesn't look like the method I've seen before where raw fuel is dumped into the exhaust system pre-turbo. This is very interesting...

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    Its great for those who hate their turbo(s). Turbo chargers arent designed to have combustion events occur in the exhaust housing, this typically dramatically shortens the life of the unit(s).

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    That is amazing ^
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

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    The method is a bit different from dumping raw fuel into the manifold, think of it more like a jet engine. There is no violent explosions which the turbo has to deal with, combustion actually occurs in a chamber immediately before the turbo on the manifold. From what I gather, the resulting operating temp sits around 600 deg C, a bit less than what the turbo would usually see in normal operation.

    It's managed based on turbine RPM to avoid overspinning the turbo; The screen is reading out turbine RPM.

    Some more info here : http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...ag-teaser.aspx

    There are links in the comments explaining functionality. Method was employed in WRC, here's an example of the rocket chamber used, plus mounting :

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    The chamber being right before the turbo flange.
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    Very cool, I really love how they are using a hybrid system, basically a turbojet with a compressor that makes boost for the engine.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Very cool, I really love how they are using a hybrid system, basically a turbojet with a compressor that makes boost for the engine.
    Yup! well boost from the turbo is both being fed back to the engine and being used to perpetuate the cycle. I don't think the engine itself sees much boost from this process but I believe the point is keeping the turbo spooled to full rpm regardless of engine rpm.
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    Snertz, I just looked at the pictures in more detail. This is how the system works, the turbocharger steals air from itself and gives it to the combustor during the zero lag period, thats how it feeds the combustion cycle. While the system is in antilag, the compressor is diverting air to its own combustor to get burned, the car engine doesnt need as much air (boost) because its under light load (free revving) so this system is basically a small gas turbine during anti lag that boosts itself. I dont know how the guy programmed the system to transition from gas turbine to turbocharger, but he must be a damn good engineer to pull off this system to get a car to transition into a launch.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    Click here to enlarge

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    Yup that's the basic gist of it, looks to be a very cool yet fairly simple hardware setup! I'm guessing the valve diverting air back to the turbo is variable to allow for the transition along with tying in to fueling for the turbine.

    What I'm not clear on is how turbine mode fueling is achieved, didn't see additional fuel lines going to the chamber or valve. Guessing it has to do with a significant enrichment through the engine injectors but wouldn't that result in other problems like fouled plugs etc? Maybe the duration of when its in turbine mode is so short that those problems are a moot point.

    It's all managed using a single Pectel stand alone so that probably made it easier to program. I imagine it simply gradually closes the recirc valve as a function of engine RPM and rising boost beyond what the process requires to run. Looking at some DIY's for building jet engines out of old turbos, the combustor only needs somewhere like 5-7psi at full bore.

    The guy that built this and owns the car is a former Prodrive WRC and Cosworth F1 calibration engineer; Currently works for Mercedes F1 I believe Click here to enlarge

    Here's his engine bay Click here to enlarge Can't even tell it's there.

    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Snertz; 07-11-2012 at 03:28 PM.
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    ^ Yea I was reading that the guy Ben who programmed it is pretty badass. I also noticed there is no fuel injector in the combustor, maybe we cant see it but I think it would be pretty dangerous if they ran super rich just so they could recover fuel from exhaust and burn it in the combustor. I think that would be problematic, after gasoline undergoes rich combustion and then exits out the exhaust is becomes unstable and isnt as 'friendly' anymore. There has to be injection somewhere, if he uses the engines injectors and just runs rich I would be surprised.

    Another thing, those homemade jet engines like you said only need about 5 psi to run. If this system intends to make full boost while the engine is free revving, then in theory it should be making something like 20-25 psia which has to go somewhere. Since it is not going into the cars engine (the engine is not under load and for it to consume that much air it would need something to hold it back like a big trans-brake torque converter) then the air has to be bled off somewhere or else the turbine will overspool.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

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    Click here to enlarge

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    Good point, maybe it's a small line integrated into the valve body itself. I wonder how much fuel would actually be needed for it to run in turbine mode; Most of the DIY turbine setups are propane powered so not exactly helpful. Also the method of ignition is a question, how is it being controlled in the combustor; It doesn't appear to have any source to trigger it.

    For the pressure question, dug a little deeper and I think I quoted the 5-7psi level wrong, it is the min not the max. 5psi would make the turbine run but I'm not sure at what turbine RPM; That level does come from the guys running the propane DIY's so would likely alter when going to gas. I don't see it changing a lot assuming the same size turbo, just a difference in the amount of fuel needed to keep it running. Could also shift this around by messing with the turbo size and A/R ratio.

    From what I found it looks like these setups are managed based around turbine RPM, instead of targeting a particular boost level. They establish a max turbine speed and control the PWM recirc valve not to exceed this.

    Another term these are known as is inlet bypass anti-lag, time for me to do some more searching. I've got a spare turbo and engine sitting in the garage, maybe it's time for a little experimentation Click here to enlarge
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    ^ this is a very fascinating technology and I am glad you showed me this + rep for you.

    I think the system is sound and I would love to see it implemented more.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

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    Guys...while impressive...it's not anything new with Pectel.

    This feature is included in every SQ6 ECU sold:

    Click here to enlarge

    Does it take a lot of knowledge to set up properly? Absolutely.

    Will I run this on my project? Maybe.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Guys...while impressive...it's not anything new with Pectel.

    This feature is included in every SQ6 ECU sold:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im.../ALSMenu-1.jpg

    Does it take a lot of knowledge to set up properly? Absolutely.

    Will I run this on my project? Maybe.

    I have zero experience with pectel so to me this is historic $#@!.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

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    Click here to enlarge

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    Isn't this a repost?
    Chrome Space Bar Issue: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...338#post738338


    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Threads merged prefer to keep this in advanced tech and just 1 thread on the topic.
    Chrome Space Bar Issue: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...338#post738338


    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Yea definitely not new tech per say, been around in WRC since something like 95 I think. Just cool to see it making its way into street cars.

    Was originally cross posted since there was debate of staying with upgraded twins vs single on the N54 platform.
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    that sounds crazy!
    very cool!
    rep city for you....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Snertz Click here to enlarge
    Yea definitely not new tech per say, been around in WRC since something like 95 I think. Just cool to see it making its way into street cars.

    Was originally cross posted since there was debate of staying with upgraded twins vs single on the N54 platform.
    I remember hearing about the 'bang bang' method which injects fuel into the exhaust to spool up the turbo, that is old news. But this is something entirely different, it has a dedicated combustion chamber with flow redirection circuit, are you guys saying that this specific technology has been around since 95? Or the bang bang method, because that method is old and eats up turbos.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    I remember hearing about the 'bang bang' method which injects fuel into the exhaust to spool up the turbo, that is old news. But this is something entirely different, it has a dedicated combustion chamber with flow redirection circuit, are you guys saying that this specific technology has been around since 95? Or the bang bang method, because that method is old and eats up turbos.
    I love your bang bang description, lol. Would it be possible to integrate something like this into a piggyback or build a separate system with a microprocessor?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I love your bang bang description, lol. Would it be possible to integrate something like this into a piggyback or build a separate system with a microprocessor?

    Is it possible? Yes very. But it would take some time to develop a good system like this for off the shelf users. To make it a 'kit with a chip' might be a little more involved than just making piping and programming a chip on a PCB. The whole system has to be bulletproof, not powerwise, control algorithm-wise.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Is it possible? Yes very. But it would take some time to develop a good system like this for off the shelf users. To make it a 'kit with a chip' might be a little more involved than just making piping and programming a chip on a PCB. The whole system has to be bulletproof, not powerwise, control algorithm-wise.
    The other thing I think most are missing is that there is a chamber added to the exhaust to make this work. What is in that chamber from a dimensional perspective is a critical part to the system's performance.

    Also, the air bypass valve is a bit special...having to handle pressure from both sides. Most "valves" like BOV and WG only have to handle pressure from one side.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    The other thing I think most are missing is that there is a chamber added to the exhaust to make this work. What is in that chamber from a dimensional perspective is a critical part to the system's performance.

    Also, the air bypass valve is a bit special...having to handle pressure from both sides. Most "valves" like BOV and WG only have to handle pressure from one side.

    All valid points, and the fact is, one would be designing a true combustion chamber. I have experience with combustion chambers and I will say this, it's a can of worms you don't want to open unless you want to see the biggest equations ever.

    Just like you pointed out, throwing a 'can' in there may not work because it will burn the air and fuel uncontrollably, a true combustion chamber quantifiably needs to be able to burn fuel efficiently and predictably.
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    I wonder what kind of CFM is required....that would answer a lot of questions for me.

    Also....who says that the "extra" fuel being injected through the engine ever sees a spark? (You should see the "randomizer" table with Pectel's ignition for torque reduction.)

    I wouldn't count out fuel being randomly injected through a sequence of cylinders and spark being cut to those cylinders for 1 cycle.

    Make sense?
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