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  1. #51
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    A very OT question came into my mind. Where are the numbers that AWD dynos tell you come from? Does dyno totalize the HP numbers it gets from both axles? Or it's something else?

    Thanks and sorry for OT

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    Dz, just curious, why wasn't Cobb's upgraded turbo map used as a starting point?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nitehawk Click here to enlarge
    Dz, just curious, why wasn't Cobb's upgraded turbo map used as a starting point?
    Because it doesn't exist
    Click here to enlarge

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    can anyone write a detailed and in depth with examples explanation of how to read data logs?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Because it doesn't exist
    What about the RB map you had on your car...not for public consumption?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nitehawk Click here to enlarge
    What about the RB map you had on your car...not for public consumption?
    HELL NO, that $#@! be runnin race logic yo!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    can anyone write a detailed and in depth with examples explanation of how to read data logs?
    I think Jake is writing a blog entry about it as we get asked often about datalogs, what to log, what to look for, etc...it'll take a bit but should be a great start

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nitehawk Click here to enlarge
    What about the RB map you had on your car...not for public consumption?
    My map was is for my I8A0S DME. Andy's car runs IJE0S. At the end of the day every car gets a custom map but in this case I couldn't even start with the map I had even if I wanted to. Once done no map is identical as every car is different.

    For instance, in Andy's case the wastegates on his RBs are softer than typical RB wastegates and needed 0 calibration in the various wgdc tables so we started with what he had on the car which was the stg2+agg map. He also wanted to run pump gas only so there was no need for raising the boost limit past the max on stg2+agg which is 18.5psi.

    @lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge why hate on us buddy? I've had the race code (or much better called as "boost limit lifter") for almost as long as I had my AP and started testing alpha RB testing with Cobb. What's so special about this? Should I blame you for not buying RBs and hate because you didn't go through the hassle of datalogging countless runs with them and providing feedback to the community? Are you on me because I paid to be a vendor on here and offer a service to those that don't have time to learn how to use ATP/ATR? What's up dude?? Why weren't you, or the other guy who politely pm-ed me asking about it and then after politely responding came on here too, against me pushing with cobb and rb turbos before? I recall someone asking about more boost out of RBs past the oem stock sensor limit? I did all that with Cobb, how did you think we would test it without the so called race code which lifts the boost limit...this $#@! is getting pretty stupid seriously
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 07-17-2012 at 04:26 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    HELL NO, that $#@! be runnin race logic yo!

    Why are you so fixated on something you don't even need? I am npt trying to be rude just clarify things. The race logic would do you absolutely nothing. If you would like I will make an identical map as what you are running and lock it to your ap. You can take the two identical maps (one standard logic and one race logi) and you can go dyno and see 0.00 whp difference. Its not public release because its not needed. I can max out my car on e85 and meth without using the race logic.

    Oh ane if you want I am in florida a few times a year. I am from miami and wife from tampa so we come down a bunch Click here to enlarge I will prob make a dynotuning day somewhere in tampa or orlando or miami next time I'm down.

  9. #59
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    Great numbers! I know @Salgmight want to do a Pro tune at some point or another. Hes just waiting to do RBs and hes done Click here to enlarge

    Man this makes me wanna get a 335 again Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    can anyone write a detailed and in depth with examples explanation of how to read data logs?
    A tutorial on the all the various logs would be beneficial.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jhershorin Click here to enlarge
    Why are you so fixated on something you don't even need? I am npt trying to be rude just clarify things. The race logic would do you absolutely nothing. If you would like I will make an identical map as what you are running and lock it to your ap. You can take the two identical maps (one standard logic and one race logi) and you can go dyno and see 0.00 whp difference. Its not public release because its not needed. I can max out my car on e85 and meth without using the race logic.

    Oh ane if you want I am in florida a few times a year. I am from miami and wife from tampa so we come down a bunch Click here to enlarge I will prob make a dynotuning day somewhere in tampa or orlando or miami next time I'm down.
    I think the point is that ATR was supposed to be the complete tuning tool and the user can optimize or fudge up just as much as anyone. But looks like the Cobb interface is incomplete to begin with and then on top of that some having certain restrictions lifted is frustrating. And initially sounded like the “race logic” encompassed more than just an increase boost ceiling.

    Hmmm, changing the boost ceiling in ATR and then having drivabilty issues seems to be related to MAP scaling… MAP2 uses the same 5v scaling as pre-throttle since there needs to be a relationship between them in differential.

    Hey, I still want to see actual/requested loads matching and how about a flat boost curve around 14psi… I would give PTF much praise after seeing this. Should be very possible. I’m not toting this as the ideal tune, but it would give proof that PTF knows what they are doing… at least better than others. Oh and add an external boost gauge just to add a little more confirmation.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nitehawk Click here to enlarge
    Dz, just curious, why wasn't Cobb's upgraded turbo map used as a starting point?
    Just to add some info, COBB provided me at the beginning of the year with a beta map for my RB turbos. That map wasn't so great though, and I think every RB car needs extensive custom tuning to have a map that really works well. I think COBB does not intend to release OTS maps for upgraded turbos as the differences between each car is just too big, as are the needs of each driver and the additional modifications.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
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    Gone: BMW 335i Individual (Öhlins, PFC brakes, RB turbos etc.)

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  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I think the point is that ATR was supposed to be the complete tuning tool and the user can optimize or fudge up just as much as anyone. But looks like the Cobb interface is incomplete to begin with and then on top of that some having certain restrictions lifted is frustrating. And initially sounded like the “race logic” encompassed more than just an increase boost ceiling.

    Hmmm, changing the boost ceiling in ATR and then having drivabilty issues seems to be related to MAP scaling… MAP2 uses the same 5v scaling as pre-throttle since there needs to be a relationship between them in differential.

    Hey, I still want to see actual/requested loads matching and how about a flat boost curve around 14psi… I would give PTF much praise after seeing this. Should be very possible. I’m not toting this as the ideal tune, but it would give proof that PTF knows what they are doing… at least better than others. Oh and add an external boost gauge just to add a little more confirmation.
    Hitting load targets isn't actually something that is supposed to happen. Load targets are the first level of determining boost. Think of them more as guidelines instead of targets. It tells the car where you want to be and the car determines how much boost to hit. You want to check Boost Mean Abs and see if its tracing Req Boost Mean. If you really want to hit your targets you just have to play with the WGDC tables (increase them in teh proper areas) and you will hit your loads but you will have overboost issues as there are other calculations that keep you whre you want to be. This is logic from BMW - not Cobb. Feel free to discuss this with them if you would like.

    If you would like a 14psi protune I would be more than happy to make it for you. It takes a second or two to dial it in but its no problem. All you have to do is play with load targets (guidelines) and revamp them throughout the RPM curve to hit the boost you are looking for at each RPM range to achieve it. Due to the wide variety of wastegate tolerances and the turbos "readiness" to hit certain pressures at certain values this is slightly different for each car but within certain limits. Therefore we set an approximate curve, test it, and correct it to achieve the boost we want to see. If you want to try it for free you know my email and I will walk you through it.

    Your tuning approach is very narrow it seems. You like boost targeting. There are multiple tunes for this reason. There is a reason BMW, Mazda, Subaru, etc go with load targeting systems like this.
    Last edited by Jake@PTF; 07-18-2012 at 06:32 AM.

  14. #64
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    I think @JoshBoody hit the nail on the head when you said that ATR/ATP is turning out to be a bit of a dissapointment versus what it was touted to be. Typical marketing BS to fail to mention to anyone that boost would be limited to 1.28 bar, fuel scalar would be absent, and a few other misc items. Maybe the factory turbos are limited to 19 psi, but i dont give a $#@!. I have a table to adjust voltage scaling for a new map, why the $#@! is it even there? So i can upgrade my MAP sensor and stay under 1.28 bar, LOL?!

    @dzenno , i'm not hating on you guys, im just a very sarcastic person. I'm rather new to the community but i've seen that you have done alot to help it, thanks.

    @jhershorin , i dont agree with you that running more than 1.28 bar would net no gains. Maybe not right now, when its hot as ballz, but once it starts cooling off i would like to experiment with running 19-20 lbs midrange on an E85/Meth combo. JB4 E85 users are running over 19 psi, id love to throw it on a dyno and see where diminishing returns are at. Furthermore it really pisses me off that i'm going to get protuned and they wont be able to dable in running more than 1.28 bar. When you pay good money for a tune, you want to know that you are squeezing out every bit of power you can. Also the fact that this Boost limit removal logic is not a standard feature in ATP tells me that there is more to the story. Why would you have the capability and not allow the users of your 3k software to have it as well?

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @jhershorin , i dont agree with you that running more than 1.28 bar would net no gains. Maybe not right now, when its hot as ballz, but once it starts cooling off i would like to experiment with running 19-20 lbs midrange on an E85/Meth combo. JB4 E85 users are running over 19 psi, id love to throw it on a dyno and see where diminishing returns are at. Furthermore it really pisses me off that i'm going to get protuned and they wont be able to dable in running more than 1.28 bar. When you pay good money for a tune, you want to know that you are squeezing out every bit of power you can. Also the fact that this Boost limit removal logic is not a standard feature in ATP tells me that there is more to the story. Why would you have the capability and not allow the users of your 3k software to have it as well?

    I'll touch on each of these subjects for you 1 by 1 Click here to enlarge

    First - ATR/ATP is in no way a let down. I can understand how you see it that way however its a bit early in that sense. If you look at all of the platforms that Cobb works on they use a model on how they release products. It is this model that makes them one of the most house hold names in tuning around the world. They come on the scene and quietly work their assess of going through all of the tables in the ECU and identifying them. Then they make some modest maps and these become known as your OTS maps. Once that is done they begin preparing the ATR / ATP software for the community. Once released it will allow people to make maps that are fine tuned to their vehicles. Over the coming months and years they continuously work with the community and protuners to find more tables, unlock more features, add more logic, etc. The BMW throws a slight kink in that as there are so many vehicles that have an N54 in it and each one has different ROMs and each requires custom coding to each for all of the logic. The standard logic everyone has is written for each ROM / platform individually. That is a VERY long process. Then each map has to be customized for each ROM / platform. Then it has to be tested. That is where public release is at today. Behind the scenes 1000s of more things are going on. Between the guys at Cobb and myself alone I have them busy coding and finding more things I think would be helpful for our platform to push it farther. The race logic is only one of them. We can stop calling it race logic and simply call it beta logic if you would like. This allows the car to run higher levels of boost without upsetting it. The issue here is that all of the different ROMs for all of the different cars require changes from ROM to ROM in the custom coding and it takes a long time. When it is fully ready it will be released. As it stands now we do have the logic for certain ROMS and could implement them however they aren't "ready" for public release yet. Being limited to 19psi is not a bad thing. Just because another tune pushes past 19psi for a short period of time doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. If you look at the compressor mapping and flow differences from 19-20psi you will see there are more efficient ways to make power. If you think that extra pound of boost is making the big gains you are seeing from e85/meth once the turbos are already outside of their efficiency island you are mistaken. It is taking advantage of the knock supression and cooling properties of meth and e85 that are allowing timing values beyond stock at boost levels well over stock boost.

    There is more to tuning than maxing boost, *$$#% tons of timing (as you like to put), and lean AFR's. Tuning takes finesse. It is finding what the car wants and tip-toe-ing that fine line between too much and too little.

    Some of the things I am working on with Cobb to get to the market is fuel scalars. I have been working close with Josh@Cobb on specific gravity tables and precalculated measurements for the different mixes that can go in our size tanks so that it makes it easier to keep trims in check. This is one of the MANY things.

    What you call typical marketing BS is simply a business model that has made Cobb the company it is today. You may not like it but the 1000s upon 1000s of other Cobb customers across all platforms do. It may take a bit longer than you would like but doing things the right way the first time is usually the best approach. Over the coming months there will be updates to all of the software that reveal new tables, new scalars, new logic, etc. As each of those come out it will push the platform further.

    I hope this helps you understand things a little more. i would be more than happy to shoot the $#@! sometime on gchat, phone call, in person, where ever if you have questions or want to learn anything.

    There are many types of people on the forum. Those who know, those who don't know but think they know, and those that don't know but know they don't know and want to learn. These are the three that stand out to me the most.

    The ones that know are often quiet. The ones that aren't often calm and collected when they post - simply stating information for people hoping someone will find it useful. Those are my second favorite. I respect them.

    Then you have the ones I respect the least. I view them as parrots. They go around spouting info they read not knowing who is actually knowledgeable or not. They bicker, start arguments, and fight that the sky is green when we all know its yellow. This is the person who thinks doesn't know but thinks they know everything. These people are just plain obnoxious and are the easiest to identify.

    My favorite is the person who doesn't know everything, recognizes they don't know everything, and wants to learn. That's how I got started in this game. I found it fascinating and was so excited to have some of the countries biggest names in tuning available for me to learn from on a personal one on one basis. These type of people can be quiet on forums, or vocal, or somewhere in between.

    Everyone falls into these categories or a mix of them. It's a fine line between those who know they don't know and those who think they know but know nothing. I am always conscious of this as even today I have things to learn about cars and tuning. Someone will always know more than me. I often love being proven wrong because it means I learned something new.

    Always keep that in mind. You seem to have interest in learning which puts you in my favorite category. Like I said - I would be more than happy to discuss things in more detail but in a public forum when you say the things you said as "fact" instead of questions - the people who think they know everything but know nothing often learn more misinformation which perpetuates the parrot-like behavior.

    Well that was a nice distraction from my day job lol. Back to work!

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    Great post!

    Neil

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    Post of the year repped!
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Just wanted to add to Jake's post. COBB is constantly developing... as most of you have seen since the initial release of the AP for the N54. Keep an eye out for more developments. Click here to enlarge
    Josh Dankel
    ECU Engineer
    866.922.3059
    Click here to enlarge
    web | forum | blog | facebook | twitter | youtube

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    Hey Jake, sorry but your response sounds more like marketing per your capabilities then the correct tuning approach. But I understand there is a learning curve for everyone… even the experts. Just hope Cobb doesn’t reduce efforts in reverse engineering the DME anytime soon. There’s many on this form that have much more ATR experience then me including Lutz, dfv2, carl morris and they would be better communicators here… BUT

    My post above was not specific for what I’m looking for, but something I’d like to see from the “tuning experts” after reviewing ATR. All the logs I’ve seen, boost and load do not hit targets past the mid-range. The main restriction so far with ATR is the boost control. My suggestion, to me this would add some proof that you all know better than others how to tune WGs. As of right now (from the posted logs) we are basically stuck at a specific WGDC determined in the mid-range. You have to increase mid-range boost in order to increase the top end. A flat boost curve would show that this is not a limitation for PTF. I think you‘ve stated before, you do not want to increase WGDC concerning turbo limitation… but there is plenty of room. Could be too aggressive for some, but not for others.

    Hitting load targets may not be necessary for the end result, but will give each user more flexibility in tuning down the road. For example you would be able to map throttle much easier if you are hitting your other targets.

    How about something very simple like altering WG starting position for us rattling folks? Maybe you could briefly touch on this… as a hand out to help others that only want to hear their exhaust.

    I’m more of a stacking fan, utilizing a piggy on top of Cobb and ATR has decent flexibility for my goals. But it would be nice to see others having the flexibility I do. I hope to see more logs posted in the future, especially by those that are pro-tuned.

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    @jhershorin, that was a great post for sure, thanks for taking the time to break things down. I would give you some positive rep if i could. I assumed that everything you mentioned was going on in the background, i think i am just a victim of the forums - as you mention in that i assumed ATR/ATP would be capable of being a complete tuning solution. In its current state it is not, although it is VERY capable. I believe that the piggys have some areas that certainly provide unique advantages. I am certain that Cobb will get there as you state, but it will just take time and i am analyzing things on a current release status - not "will be" status. Sorry if that offends anyone.

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    @Josh@Cobb, @jhershorin and/or @dzenno -- Hope either of you two could help with this

    Since E85 is becoming more & more popular & that the piggys have already began E85 integration, I assume that it's basically a matter of time until COBB takes advantage of this. What happens if we get a ProTune & then 3-4 months down the road, COBB upgrades the firmware & E85 is integrated?? Click here to enlarge
    • Is the ProTune outdated & rendered useless since the map is locked from the user's end?
    • Can a ProTuned map be updated on the tuner's end for the new firmware/E85 integration?
    • If neither of the 1st two are possible, would a brand new ProTune have to be made on the new E85 integrating firmware??


    If either of you could comment that'd be great, sorry if the questions are redundant & ask the same question 4 different ways Click here to enlarge
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    @Josh@Cobb, @jhershorin and/or @dzenno -- Hope either of you two could help with this

    Since E85 is becoming more & more popular & that the piggys have already began E85 integration, I assume that it's basically a matter of time until COBB takes advantage of this. What happens if we get a ProTune & then 3-4 months down the road, COBB upgrades the firmware & E85 is integrated?? Click here to enlarge
    • Is the ProTune outdated & rendered useless since the map is locked from the user's end?
    • Can a ProTuned map be updated on the tuner's end for the new firmware/E85 integration?
    • If neither of the 1st two are possible, would a brand new ProTune have to be made on the new E85 integrating firmware??


    If either of you could comment that'd be great, sorry if the questions are redundant & ask the same question 4 different ways Click here to enlarge
    The only thing your currently limited by is what concentration of Ethanol you can run - because fuel trims will max out. Once Cobb adds a global fuel scalar we can run higher concentrations which would require a new tune or an E-tune to make the appropriate changes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    @Josh@Cobb, @jhershorin and/or @dzenno -- Hope either of you two could help with this

    Since E85 is becoming more & more popular & that the piggys have already began E85 integration, I assume that it's basically a matter of time until COBB takes advantage of this. What happens if we get a ProTune & then 3-4 months down the road, COBB upgrades the firmware & E85 is integrated?? Click here to enlarge
    • Is the ProTune outdated & rendered useless since the map is locked from the user's end?
    • Can a ProTuned map be updated on the tuner's end for the new firmware/E85 integration?
    • If neither of the 1st two are possible, would a brand new ProTune have to be made on the new E85 integrating firmware??


    If either of you could comment that'd be great, sorry if the questions are redundant & ask the same question 4 different ways Click here to enlarge
    I can't speak for other protuners because everyone has different practices. I provide support for people I protune beyond when we finish. I am working with Cobb on scalars for e85 so that it is easier to dial in and keep trims in check. Updating a customers map wtih my tables onto the newest logic/firmware when it comes out isn't to steep of a task and I would be more than happy to make sure things are squared away. We are able to tune for e85 now. Its just not as elegant as it will be in the future when I can determine the approx specific gravity and scale things with that value.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @jhershorin , that was a great post for sure, thanks for taking the time to break things down. I would give you some positive rep if i could. I assumed that everything you mentioned was going on in the background, i think i am just a victim of the forums - as you mention in that i assumed ATR/ATP would be capable of being a complete tuning solution. In its current state it is not, although it is VERY capable. I believe that the piggys have some areas that certainly provide unique advantages. I am certain that Cobb will get there as you state, but it will just take time and i am analyzing things on a current release status - not "will be" status. Sorry if that offends anyone.
    No worries Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Hey Jake, sorry but your response sounds more like marketing per your capabilities then the correct tuning approach. But I understand there is a learning curve for everyone… even the experts. Just hope Cobb doesn’t reduce efforts in reverse engineering the DME anytime soon. There’s many on this form that have much more ATR experience then me including Lutz, dfv2, carl morris and they would be better communicators here… BUT

    My post above was not specific for what I’m looking for, but something I’d like to see from the “tuning experts” after reviewing ATR. All the logs I’ve seen, boost and load do not hit targets past the mid-range. The main restriction so far with ATR is the boost control. My suggestion, to me this would add some proof that you all know better than others how to tune WGs. As of right now (from the posted logs) we are basically stuck at a specific WGDC determined in the mid-range. You have to increase mid-range boost in order to increase the top end. A flat boost curve would show that this is not a limitation for PTF. I think you‘ve stated before, you do not want to increase WGDC concerning turbo limitation… but there is plenty of room. Could be too aggressive for some, but not for others.

    Hitting load targets may not be necessary for the end result, but will give each user more flexibility in tuning down the road. For example you would be able to map throttle much easier if you are hitting your other targets.

    How about something very simple like altering WG starting position for us rattling folks? Maybe you could briefly touch on this… as a hand out to help others that only want to hear their exhaust.

    I’m more of a stacking fan, utilizing a piggy on top of Cobb and ATR has decent flexibility for my goals. But it would be nice to see others having the flexibility I do. I hope to see more logs posted in the future, especially by those that are pro-tuned.
    Guh lots to comment on here but I spent about the max time I can on the forum while at work. I'll have to get to this when I get home and update this post.

    What I will say now is that I am a bit surprised to see your response. I jokingly offered to protune you (marketing but wasn't serious) and followed that up with saying i would walk you through it for FREE via email or gchat if you wanted to learn how to do it. I am not sure how that can be misconstrued as marketing. If it came off that I was trying to sell you something I apologize - I thought offering you free services was pretty nice. That leads me to think you have alternative motives which throws you into the procede camp. There is nothing wrong with thinking one tune is better than another. Its all opinion. My opinion is that its better to set the table values instead of scaling them with a piggyback or altering the signal of the o2's to get them to think they are running lean so you can add more fuel. Boost targeting is convenient but in the end load tuning is very consistent, reliable, safe, and elegant. Six one way half dozen another depending on who you ask apparently.

    Sorry if that comes off as mean but I guess I am a bit shocked that in offering you free help to get a curve you want to see appeared as marketing to you.

  24. #74
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    The only thing your currently limited by is what concentration of Ethanol you can run - because fuel trims will max out. Once Cobb adds a global fuel scalar we can run higher concentrations which would require a new tune or an E-tune to make the appropriate changes.
    Yea, I'm stuck running 20% E85 right now & I love what it's doing -- car feels much stronger, runs smoother, haven't had a chance to get quality logs but from the looks of it E85 eliminates timing corrections so I'm just thinking for when COBB legit integrates and let's us run something stronger (40/60 is probably as aggressive as I'd want to go)

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jhershorin Click here to enlarge
    I can't speak for other protuners because everyone has different practices. I provide support for people I protune beyond when we finish. I am working with Cobb on scalars for e85 so that it is easier to dial in and keep trims in check. Updating a customers map wtih my tables onto the newest logic/firmware when it comes out isn't to steep of a task and I would be more than happy to make sure things are squared away. We are able to tune for e85 now. Its just not as elegant as it will be in the future when I can determine the approx specific gravity and scale things with that value.
    Good to know & that is why I'm going to you for the ProTune Click here to enlarge -- Gonna email you in the next couple of days to nail down a more exact time frame
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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  25. #75
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    I beliee Vishnu made 415 wheel with intake on e85. Not crapping on anyone's party... but I would like to see a flash do this. I understand there is more to tuning but numbers speak for themselves.

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