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  1. #1
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    Alcohol Injection

    Guys I recently did a lot of research on methanol injection, as I would love it's cooling effects on the track. I also like how it seems to clean the engine, and even valves? 20-30hp sounds cool too. The downsides to this chemical, are not often discussed on our forums.

    1. Methanol toxicity (entry points include inhalation, skin contact, or swallowing-kids) Scary stuff here folks.

    2. Pump must not fail, or you will have catastrophic engine failure, due to the lean mixture being run. A slight solution to this is tunes that sense methanol system delivery failure, and instantly switch maps.

    3. Methanol fires

    4. Engine wear and tear from having the additional force pushing down on the piston (nitrous like effect)

    With these negatives in mind, why doesn't the N54 community push alcohol, as an alternative. a 50/50 water/alcohol mixture sprayed using the methanol kit's delivery system seems like a much safer alternative. I know it won't boost octane, and increase power as much as methanol, but we are sure to benefit from lower IAT's and increased timing. I also think this can be used with race gas, to basically have the same effect as the meth kits. I learned about these two systems from the STI forums, where both are equally promoted, as opposed to our dangerous meth habit.

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    of course it will boost octane. alcohol has just slightly less octane than meth. Thats what i have been running since the beginning. maybe more 60/40 or 70/30 mix though.
    Meth is overrated....
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    2. Pump must not fail, or you will have catastrophic engine failure, due to the lean mixture being run. A slight solution to this is tunes that sense methanol system delivery failure, and instantly switch maps.

    Easiliy mitigated with a failsafe. Dont cheap out when purchasing a methanol kit.

    3. Methanol fires

    Take the time to research how to properly setup a methanol kit and what fittings, tanks, and locations provide the safest results. Easily mitigated.

    4. Engine wear and tear from having the additional force pushing down on the piston (nitrous like effect).

    The additional force pushing down on the piston doesnt directly come from methanol, but the ability to run more boost and additional timing which will increase cylinder pressures, on the other hand the methanol provides increased cooling of the cylinders and additional octane so its really a wash. If you're worried about additional force pushing down on the piston, stop modding your car. For the record nitrous and methanol are not even remotely the same in the way they add power, nitrous adds dense oxygen to the cylinder whereas methanol cools the intake charge, increases octane and cools the cylinders.

    An E90post user did a comparison between methanol injection 50/50 meth/H2o vs denatured alcohol. The results were less than thrilling. Please see below.

    Taken from E90post --> http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ohol+injection
    *Beginning of C&P
    Just contributing to the search function in case someone decides to do some research on methanol alternatives. Denatured alcohol is 90% ethanol/10% methanol. It can be bought at Home Depot or Lowe's in the paint section ($15). From that mixture, I added distilled water to form an 80%/20% denatured alcohol/water mixture.
    Mods are JB4, DCI, 40% E85/60% 93 octane, Coolmist injection using 80/20 denatured alcohol/water.
    Peak boost: 17.0psi
    Timing curve: 10.8 degrees climbing to 12.7 degrees
    Conclusion: It is an OK alternative to Boostjuice (49%/51%) if you happen to run out.
    Unfortunately, even with an 80/20 ratio, it cannot hold a candle to Boostjuice in terms of sustained peak boost and ignition timing curve; I can hold 17.5psi with a solid timing curve starting from 10 degrees and climbing to 14.5 degrees near redline.
    I get some DME timing correction when I crank the boost to 17.5psi with my rather aggressive Denatured Alcohol mixture. IAT's are also affected by the lack of water in the mixture as they barely drop (it lowers to just 93F, ambien was 78F during the time of log) when my Coolmist injection system starts to pump the fluid as the logs indicate.
    The log below is each seperate value's, then the last one is a combination of each one. The log was done in 3rd gear.
    *End of C&P

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    It will not clean the intake valves since it is fully vaporized by the time the charge passes over them.

    Neil

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Guys I recently did a lot of research on methanol injection, as I would love it's cooling effects on the track. I also like how it seems to clean the engine, and even valves? 20-30hp sounds cool too. The downsides to this chemical, are not often discussed on our forums.

    1. Methanol toxicity (entry points include inhalation, skin contact, or swallowing-kids) Scary stuff here folks.

    2. Pump must not fail, or you will have catastrophic engine failure, due to the lean mixture being run. A slight solution to this is tunes that sense methanol system delivery failure, and instantly switch maps.

    3. Methanol fires

    4. Engine wear and tear from having the additional force pushing down on the piston (nitrous like effect)

    With these negatives in mind, why doesn't the N54 community push alcohol, as an alternative. a 50/50 water/alcohol mixture sprayed using the methanol kit's delivery system seems like a much safer alternative. I know it won't boost octane, and increase power as much as methanol, but we are sure to benefit from lower IAT's and increased timing. I also think this can be used with race gas, to basically have the same effect as the meth kits. I learned about these two systems from the STI forums, where both are equally promoted, as opposed to our dangerous meth habit.
    I run a trunk mount kit with an unvented cap and I haven't grown a sixth finger.

    Pump must not fail? If such an occurrence happened, that is why we have flow sensors to utilize as a failsafe.

    If you're that worried about wear and tear, you shouldn't be modding.

    Denatured alcohol does not add as much octane as methanol.

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    keep in mind what octane is...it is a measure of how likely a fuel is to self ignite. The higher the number, the less likely an engine is to pre-ignite and suffer damage. Considering water doesn't burn it has the highest octane rating possible, higher than anything else. Not using water in your meth/alcohol mix is definitely a mistake. Just throwing this out as octane and water were mentioned. In addition, in layman terms, water puts out the fire in your combustion chamber and there are limits to using water in terms of flow volume. Too much water and it'll kill power...there's a fine balance as with everything..
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    keep in mind what octane is...it is a measure of how likely a fuel is to self ignite. The higher the number, the less likely an engine is to pre-ignite and suffer damage. Considering water doesn't burn it has the highest octane rating possible, higher than anything else. Not using water in your meth/alcohol mix is definitely a mistake. Just throwing this out as octane and water were mentioned. In addition, in layman terms, water puts out the fire in your combustion chamber and there are limits to using water in terms of flow volume. Too much water and it'll kill power...there's a fine balance as with everything..
    +1 I would rep you but I can't just yet.

  8. #8
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    keep in mind what octane is...it is a measure of how likely a fuel is to self ignite. The higher the number, the less likely an engine is to pre-ignite and suffer damage. Considering water doesn't burn it has the highest octane rating possible, higher than anything else. Not using water in your meth/alcohol mix is definitely a mistake. Just throwing this out as octane and water were mentioned. In addition, in layman terms, water puts out the fire in your combustion chamber and there are limits to using water in terms of flow volume. Too much water and it'll kill power...there's a fine balance as with everything..
    Tried to explain this to someone a while ago.

  9. #9
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    That was me who posted that on the other forum about my results. I'll post it here too (unless someone else can with pictures and all since I'm at work). I've not found the best mixture for my case yet with denatured alcohol. With a 60/40 mixture, I'm getting drop timing at about 4,700-4,800rpm running higher than 14.5psi of peak boost, which is right where my car approaches is peak mark. With a more aggressive 80/20 mixture, I can get away with a peak of 15.5psi; a peak of 17 psi with E85/93 fuel mixture. Maybe a custom Map 6 is in order to dial down boost in that range (or a CPS module create a different timing curve around that RPM)

    It's still better than not running any injection system though, just not up to methanol levels yet in terms of sustained boost and timing curve with my mods. But like I said, I need to play around with the mixture more to suit my needs with the lack of mods I have (but by that point, I could have just bought some more boost juice).
    Loe P.
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  10. #10
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    Eman,

    Mix 3 gallons of E85 and AKI 93 and you are good to go. As a side effect, you will notice that your oil temps won't go as high as before.
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
    Click here to enlarge

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    Thanks, I'll try this. I haven't tested the car on the track with catless dp's and my upgraded intercooler, so I might not need any more cooling mods. I still think you should spend money on a good pair of xdrilled rotors, rather than upgraded pads. Click here to enlarge

  12. #12
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    Hehe, cool mate! Yeah, you know I am stubborn. I need to hit my head into the wall before I begin to listen. Click here to enlarge I'll try the current brakes that I have on order and then see what's what.

    As a side note, I am currently working on a "super secret", dirt cheap method of keeping the engine cooled on the race track. There will be a DIY some time in the near future Click here to enlarge
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #13
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Hehe, cool mate! Yeah, you know I am stubborn. I need to hit my head into the wall before I begin to listen. Click here to enlarge I'll try the current brakes that I have on order and then see what's what.

    As a side note, I am currently working on a "super secret", dirt cheap method of keeping the engine cooled on the race track. There will be a DIY some time in the near future Click here to enlarge
    As long as it doesn't involve cutting a hole in the hood, I'm all ears. Click here to enlarge

  14. #14
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by turugara Click here to enlarge
    As long as it doesn't involve cutting a hole in the hood, I'm all ears. Click here to enlarge
    No cutting of the hood or any body panels needed.
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #15
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    I have something up my sleeve for my next track event coming up in 2 weeks. It's not really "super secret", but I hope it will make a big difference myself too. It doesn't involve doing anything to the car itself, as far as buying something for it, and it should really lower temps. However, the track might not like, it, but I have something to help with that too. Any guesses? Click here to enlarge

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    Update. Looks like a 50/50 mixture keeps flow at or near 100%. Seems as powerful as boostjuice but I tested this at 77F (it gets to about mid 90's this time of year during afternoon hours) My main issue is with a higher concentration, it wouldn't flow well because it got too hot and I had DME timing corrections. I'll have to test when the car is sitting in the hot sun after work today.
    Loe P.
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    - 09' E90 M3 7-DCT Interlagos Blue / Novillo Silver - gone Click here to enlarge
    [K&N filter|MS pullies|test pipes|Evolve Stg II tune/Servotronic/GTS-DCT Tune|Euro MDM]


  17. #17
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    I have something up my sleeve for my next track event coming up in 2 weeks. It's not really "super secret", but I hope it will make a big difference myself too. It doesn't involve doing anything to the car itself, as far as buying something for it, and it should really lower temps. However, the track might not like, it, but I have something to help with that too. Any guesses? Click here to enlarge
    Intercooler water sprayer?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Intercooler water sprayer?
    Very close but not quite.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spool twice Click here to enlarge
    Update. Looks like a 50/50 mixture keeps flow at or near 100%. Seems as powerful as boostjuice but I tested this at 77F (it gets to about mid 90's this time of year during afternoon hours) My main issue is with a higher concentration, it wouldn't flow well because it got too hot and I had DME timing corrections. I'll have to test when the car is sitting in the hot sun after work today.
    Thanks for the info, and data. Quick question, which injection system/charge pipe do you use, how did you measure and prepare the 50/50 solution. Do I need a tune, with a "meth" map to run this, or can I just run this without using the meth map? Is there any way to rig this thing to go off once max boost is running? that way, when I am in the turns, I can build up heat, and once I hit the straight away, I can cool down.

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    guys can I run 50/50 water/alcohol with this kit?:

    http://www.modbargains.com/AEM-Methanol-Kit-BMW-N54.htm

    are there any other cheaper kits on the market?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    guys can I run 50/50 water/alcohol with this kit?:

    http://www.modbargains.com/AEM-Methanol-Kit-BMW-N54.htm

    are there any other cheaper kits on the market?
    Don't see why could not run 50/50 water/alcohol with it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    guys can I run 50/50 water/alcohol with this kit?:

    http://www.modbargains.com/AEM-Methanol-Kit-BMW-N54.htm

    are there any other cheaper kits on the market?
    I can't really work out what triggers that kit to start injection, but assume it is a boost controled on/off type kit without flow sensor of any kind. It most certainly will deal with a 50/50 mixture though.

    What tune do you run? Both JB4 and Procede have methanol integration and both companies sell kits, I would recommend that. I am running a JB4 with a Coolingmist trunk mount tank and a FSB controller (instead of a flow sensor) and it works great. I used to have a stand alone meth controller but it was just a hazzle. I really like the JB meth integration.

    If you run COBB/Dinan/GIAC there is methanol kits with their own safety systems (since the is no meth integration with flashes), I think those kits are more expensive and that Aquamist is the gold standard here, but you need to get feedback from someone who have their kit. @dzenno had a thread about his meth kit with safeties etc (he is running Cobb) maybe he can add info about the aqua mist kit.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    I can't really work out what triggers that kit to start injection, but assume it is a boost controled on/off type kit without flow sensor of any kind. It most certainly will deal with a 50/50 mixture though.

    What tune do you run? Both JB4 and Procede have methanol integration and both companies sell kits, I would recommend that. I am running a JB4 with a Coolingmist trunk mount tank and a FSB controller (instead of a flow sensor) and it works great. I used to have a stand alone meth controller but it was just a hazzle. I really like the JB meth integration.

    If you run COBB/Dinan/GIAC there is methanol kits with their own safety systems (since the is no meth integration with flashes), I think those kits are more expensive and that Aquamist is the gold standard here, but you need to get feedback from someone who have their kit. @dzenno had a thread about his meth kit with safeties etc (he is running Cobb) maybe he can add info about the aqua mist kit.
    Hey thanks for your response and info. Currently, I just have a JB+ set to 100% w/ a solenoid bypass. I'm mostly into driving at a track, so I am looking to get the cooling effect of water/alcohol. I don't think I need a full tune, like JB4/procede/cobb, to get that result.

  24. #24
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Hey thanks for your response and info. Currently, I just have a JB+ set to 100% w/ a solenoid bypass. I'm mostly into driving at a track, so I am looking to get the cooling effect of water/alcohol. I don't think I need a full tune, like JB4/procede/cobb, to get that result.
    I still think your cheapest option is upgrading the jb+ to a jb4 and get a BMS FSB meth kit, but run map3 or a custom map6 with JB+ boost levels and with a close to/or 0 additive setting, that way you get methanol control from the jb4 but run the (low) boost you want (for now).

    If you plan on running a 50%/50% meth/water mix you can use the WW-kit.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Guys I recently did a lot of research on methanol injection, as I would love it's cooling effects on the track. I also like how it seems to clean the engine, and even valves? 20-30hp sounds cool too. The downsides to this chemical, are not often discussed on our forums.

    1. Methanol toxicity (entry points include inhalation, skin contact, or swallowing-kids) Scary stuff here folks.

    2. Pump must not fail, or you will have catastrophic engine failure, due to the lean mixture being run. A slight solution to this is tunes that sense methanol system delivery failure, and instantly switch maps.

    3. Methanol fires

    4. Engine wear and tear from having the additional force pushing down on the piston (nitrous like effect)

    With these negatives in mind, why doesn't the N54 community push alcohol, as an alternative. a 50/50 water/alcohol mixture sprayed using the methanol kit's delivery system seems like a much safer alternative. I know it won't boost octane, and increase power as much as methanol, but we are sure to benefit from lower IAT's and increased timing. I also think this can be used with race gas, to basically have the same effect as the meth kits. I learned about these two systems from the STI forums, where both are equally promoted, as opposed to our dangerous meth habit.
    Not sure if anyone said this yet, but meth is cheaper (unless you know of a source under $5.00 a gallon for alcohol). That is one big advantage of meth over alky.

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