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  1. #626
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by syclone2032 Click here to enlarge
    ..
    now the actual question:
    my car has about 75k miles. could it be i have a sticky waste gate?
    like, when i step on it, the DME requests a certain boost and sends the vacuum to the WG actuator. since the sticky WG is reacting slow, the boost overshoots, causing a TC, then boost drops (again, WG reacting slowly) and then rises again (2nd spike), after which the system "calms down", allowing for a smooth boost curve from there on.

    any thoughts? i don't want to screw up all tables (and losing power, i have scaled down the affected area below the values of the stock map) trying to achieve something that cannot be reached since there may be a hardware problem...

    thanks
    peter
    austria
    Doesn't sound like hardware problem.
    Most likely you aggravated the the issue when edited base and PID.
    Post logs.
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

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    @bimmer305 and @BuraQ meant to say thanks for the advice. Boost curve is much smoother now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bimmer305 Click here to enlarge
    Post logs.
    going through Cobbs OTS maps database, i chose a stage 2+ sport map because it matched my mods list best.

    all logs show TPS act., load req. and load act.

    i had some TCs right away, one immediately after stepping on it and one at around 3500rpm:

    Click here to enlarge

    one spike i was able to edit out by altering the WGDC base table, the first one seems to be some kind of "rebound" after the boost comes up, then drops a little and then spikes once more

    Click here to enlarge

    this one i couldn't get rid of so easy, so i kept editing the WGDC base table and as a last resort also the PID table (i have to say that i made minimal changes there since i wasn't 100% sure what i was doing, and i don't dare to say that i was able to feel a change. also, my changes to the WGDC table are always small, 10% of the cell value or less).

    then, this happened (reproducibly, 3 runs like this)

    Click here to enlarge

    so i went home and slept like a baby.

    next day, i went out again to pull some more logs because i wanted to know what the car does with fuel and ignition (i didn't plan to change anything there since i was quite happy with the state):

    Click here to enlarge

    thats when i decided to ask.

    i agree that this is not a hardware issue.

    i now think that the map may be too aggressive for my car, not overall but in certain areas. today, i tried to lower the values in the Torque ceiling limit map in the rpm range i have problems, and so far it seems to work, "my" TC is gone and the car makes really good power; i have to make some more runs to confirm this.

    finally, one weird log that showed up once (accelerating in 5th gear, felt like a huge, hard hiccup even before it built any boost, very strange)

    Click here to enlarge

    thanks for looking.
    peter

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    Open an account in www/datazap.me and upload logs there. We can't do anything with these graphs, not enough information .

    You may want to log at least:

    Boost Mean Abs
    Boost Req Abs
    Boost Setpoint Factor
    Engine Speed
    Lambda (Bank1)
    Load Act.
    Load Req.
    MAF Req.
    STFT (Bank1)
    TPS Act.
    Timing Cor. Cyl 1
    Timing Cor. Cyl 2
    Timing Cor. Cyl 3
    Timing Cor. Cyl 4
    Timing Cor. Cyl 5
    Timing Cor. Cyl 6
    Timing Cyl 1
    WGDC After PID
    WGDC Bank 1
    WGDC Base Value
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

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    will do.
    thanks
    p

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    ok, i set up a datazap account and uploaded a few logs.

    in my First Attempt, i was kind of arrogant and at some point lost track, so i decided to start over. the logs are representative for my progress. i edited the WGDC base table by applying "small decreases" but ending up with a very rough looking grid with ditches and slopes and bad drivability.

    before starting over, though, i recorded 2 pulls for every single OTS map, in 3rd and 4th gear, respectively. even with the "softest" OTS map (Stage 1 Sport, shown here), there were throttle closures (and more so with the more aggressive maps).

    Second Attempt

    i started with a Stage2 Sport map and took a very systematic and step-by-step approach. i was able to almost completely eradicate TCs, for the cost of the car being very dull and feeling as if it pulled timing instead of closing the throttle. i disliked it so much that i decided to start over yet again.

    the Third Attempt started with a Stage 2+ Sport OTS map, and i tried to not look at logs so much but rather concentrate on what the car does, and actually, although the TCs are sometimes massive, the car feels alive, very strong and has an absolutely linear feeling power band.

    by this and after reading this thread once again, i now like to think that maybe throttle closures are less of a protective measure but rather intentional to actively control and modulate boost and match requested and actual load/torque (but of course they are, but not to the rescue but as an active part of engine control)

    in the thread mentioned, mfish complains about pretty much what i have experienced, after editing out the TCs the car felt dull and still pulled timing.

    i thought this may be worth discussing: what if the DME uses TCs to react and adapt faster to mismatches between requested and actual load/torque?!

    without TCs, if the boost overshoots, the WG is closed, only to be opened immediately after to bring it up again, which brings oscillation and needs some time till it settles.

    a TC, on the other hand, will get the requested load/torque into the desired range faster and also it will not make the boost collapse as shutting the WG does.

    after i (and mfish) had edited out the TCs, i still saw actual load/torque exceeding requested, but no more TCs, instead the car seemed to pull timing.

    so maybe the first measure to match actual and requested values is to close the throttle to control boost, but if boost is already low, it then starts pulling timing to reduce actual load/torque.

    i will go through my 100+ logs to elaborate, for now i wanted to answer as soon as possible after asking.

    sorry for the lengthy post, but id really like to know what you think. maybe i am completely on the wrong track here.

    thanks for looking
    peter

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by syclone2032 Click here to enlarge
    ok, i set up a datazap account and uploaded a few logs.

    in my First Attempt, i was kind of arrogant and at some point lost track, so i decided to start over. the logs are representative for my progress. i edited the WGDC base table by applying "small decreases" but ending up with a very rough looking grid with ditches and slopes and bad drivability.

    before starting over, though, i recorded 2 pulls for every single OTS map, in 3rd and 4th gear, respectively. even with the "softest" OTS map (Stage 1 Sport, shown here), there were throttle closures (and more so with the more aggressive maps).

    Second Attempt

    i started with a Stage2 Sport map and took a very systematic and step-by-step approach. i was able to almost completely eradicate TCs, for the cost of the car being very dull and feeling as if it pulled timing instead of closing the throttle. i disliked it so much that i decided to start over yet again.

    the Third Attempt started with a Stage 2+ Sport OTS map, and i tried to not look at logs so much but rather concentrate on what the car does, and actually, although the TCs are sometimes massive, the car feels alive, very strong and has an absolutely linear feeling power band.

    by this and after reading this thread once again, i now like to think that maybe throttle closures are less of a protective measure but rather intentional to actively control and modulate boost and match requested and actual load/torque (but of course they are, but not to the rescue but as an active part of engine control)

    in the thread mentioned, mfish complains about pretty much what i have experienced, after editing out the TCs the car felt dull and still pulled timing.

    i thought this may be worth discussing: what if the DME uses TCs to react and adapt faster to mismatches between requested and actual load/torque?!

    without TCs, if the boost overshoots, the WG is closed, only to be opened immediately after to bring it up again, which brings oscillation and needs some time till it settles.

    a TC, on the other hand, will get the requested load/torque into the desired range faster and also it will not make the boost collapse as shutting the WG does.

    after i (and mfish) had edited out the TCs, i still saw actual load/torque exceeding requested, but no more TCs, instead the car seemed to pull timing.

    so maybe the first measure to match actual and requested values is to close the throttle to control boost, but if boost is already low, it then starts pulling timing to reduce actual load/torque.

    i will go through my 100+ logs to elaborate, for now i wanted to answer as soon as possible after asking.

    sorry for the lengthy post, but id really like to know what you think. maybe i am completely on the wrong track here.

    thanks for looking
    peter
    @syclone2032 Sounds like you have the throttle closures ironed out for the most part. As far as just addressing the timing drops, editing the "load to torque limit" table helped me eliminate them.! Below is a link to a post I had made with instructions. If you eventually get tired of messing with ATR on your own pro tuning freaks does a really good job with custom tuning to get things dialed in and maximize power. Its money well spent. Personally, I like to "turn the knobs" myself so sometimes I run my own maps and sometimes I run the run pro tuning freaks made for me. Hope this helps.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...921#post520921
    2009 335i AT xdrive E90 Sedan
    7601494 Trans Flash
    MHD Custom Tune
    FBO + Rb Inlets

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    mfish
    thanks for the reply
    went out yesterday and again had massive TCs (sometimes not just a spike but over a range of 1000rpm). and i will definitely contact PTF, but like you, i like to mess around myself to get better understanding and because i like doing it.
    cheers
    peter

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Just chiming in to say 'thanks' to everyone who contributed to this thread. I learned a lot.

    Started tinkering with some maps as well. I'll post some logs as soon as I get around to throwing on new rear tires and LPFP/in-line set up to run E50 or so.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dkcbears Click here to enlarge
    Just chiming in to say 'thanks' to everyone who contributed to this thread. I learned a lot.

    Started tinkering with some maps as well. I'll post some logs as soon as I get around to throwing on new rear tires and LPFP/in-line set up to run E50 or so.
    Your name makes me think about bear dicks. Why oh why....

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Your name makes me think about bear dicks. Why oh why....
    LOL. It's alright Sticky. No one's gonna judge you if bear dicks are the sort of things that float your boat... Click here to enlarge

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    Hello out there,

    first of all, I'm really glad to have found a forum, with discussions at such a high level of knowledge. Haven't seen that much forums, with so many smart guys participating. ;-)

    However, i got my Cobb a few weeks ago and sadly the OTS Stage 2 maps, are not that good of a deal, when it comes to transients. Also my car had massive overboosts under WOT conditions. PID control had to pull down WGDC all the time through the whole rev range. After about 500 miles of road testing and many, many iterations, the car runs as smooth as stock on transients to 99%, there are no TCs, timings are perfect and torque is frying the clutch already. Click here to enlarge

    Theres only one issue left: I still get massive overboosts, when going WOT after a blip-downshift. Funny thing: When I'm on overrun, or going WOT from a steady state at exact the same rev-range, boost builds up perfect.

    <<there should be a datazap graph, but i'm not allowed to post links at the moment>>


    Any idea on this? I was thinking about replacing the vacuum canisters? Maybe they are clogged after ~ 58k miles and slow down boost control under some circumstances?

    Best,
    Clemens

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    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    RayBan81 What type of climate are you in? Just curious.
    E88 N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Motiv HTA 3586r Tial .82AR/Motiv Port Fuel/BMR 3.5" Exhaust/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/ST Coilovers/M3 FCA + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/AA Strutbrace/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
    F30 335 X-Drive EBII....PPK otherwise Stock
    Click here to enlarge

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    @Josh@Cobb

    I'm looking for the safety table that pulls timing when overshooting load/boost. It seems to pull in -3 intervals.

    It should look like the Timing Correction per Charge Temperature.

    I have looked through all available tables and none seems to match for what I'm looking for.

    And it is not the Timing (Fail Safe) table, because @BuraQ tested it.

    Thanks
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    RayBan81 What type of climate are you in? Just curious.

    I'm from Austria! Nothing special. Normal elevation, normal humidity, 50 deg F at the moment.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RayBan81 Click here to enlarge
    I'm from Austria! Nothing special. Normal elevation, normal humidity, 50 deg F at the moment.
    clemens
    im from vienna. where are you located?
    im having similar issues and trying to get it sorted with ATR. N55 or N54?
    maybe we should meet.
    cheers
    peter

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by syclone2032 Click here to enlarge
    clemens
    im from vienna. where are you located?
    im having similar issues and trying to get it sorted with ATR. N55 or N54?
    maybe we should meet.
    cheers
    peter
    N54 in my case. Maybe we can share some knowledge via e-mail. I'll write you a pm with my adress.

    Best

  19. #644
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bimmer305 Click here to enlarge
    @Josh@Cobb

    I'm looking for the safety table that pulls timing when overshooting load/boost. It seems to pull in -3 intervals.

    It should look like the Timing Correction per Charge Temperature.

    I have looked through all available tables and none seems to match for what I'm looking for.

    And it is not the Timing (Fail Safe) table, because @BuraQ tested it.

    Thanks
    Are you seeing timing corrections or drops in actual final timing? If you're overshooting and the throttle blade is actually closing, its going to create turbulent air and its common to see timing corrections due to this. There is no direct table that I've seen related to timing pulls due to overshoots... there could be something algorithm based, but no table that I've found.

    Shoot me a log either way and I can take a look.

    -Josh
    Josh Dankel
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RayBan81 Click here to enlarge
    Hello out there,

    first of all, I'm really glad to have found a forum, with discussions at such a high level of knowledge. Haven't seen that much forums, with so many smart guys participating. ;-)

    However, i got my Cobb a few weeks ago and sadly the OTS Stage 2 maps, are not that good of a deal, when it comes to transients. Also my car had massive overboosts under WOT conditions. PID control had to pull down WGDC all the time through the whole rev range. After about 500 miles of road testing and many, many iterations, the car runs as smooth as stock on transients to 99%, there are no TCs, timings are perfect and torque is frying the clutch already. Click here to enlarge

    Theres only one issue left: I still get massive overboosts, when going WOT after a blip-downshift. Funny thing: When I'm on overrun, or going WOT from a steady state at exact the same rev-range, boost builds up perfect.

    <<there should be a datazap graph, but i'm not allowed to post links at the moment>>


    Any idea on this? I was thinking about replacing the vacuum canisters? Maybe they are clogged after ~ 58k miles and slow down boost control under some circumstances?

    Best,
    Clemens
    Its always best to try to capture in a log for us to view, but it sounds like you have some overly tight wastegates. Its pretty common on N54s these days as owners and dealer techs are cranking them down to try to get rid of wastegate rattle. Get me a log and I can take a look.
    Josh Dankel
    ECU Engineer
    866.922.3059
    Click here to enlarge
    web | forum | blog | facebook | twitter | youtube

  21. #646
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Are you seeing timing corrections or drops in actual final timing? If you're overshooting and the throttle blade is actually closing, its going to create turbulent air and its common to see timing corrections due to this. There is no direct table that I've seen related to timing pulls due to overshoots... there could be something algorithm based, but no table that I've found.

    Shoot me a log either way and I can take a look.

    -Josh
    Josh thanks for your reply.

    I was referring to actual timing correction. It seems the DME pulls timing on the cylinder/s that are about to fire right after overboost. Every time timing pulls is on more than one cylinder, they are in firing order (1-5-3-6-2-4).

    I get no throttle closures because I modified the Throttle Angle Aggression in Overload to overlook certain amount of overboost (~1.5psi).

    To me it looks like there has to be a table or something that pulls timing based on amount of overboost per rpm or something.

    I though it will be a load limit table because it would reduction on timing instead of timing correction.

    Pretty much this happens on every log because I overshoot post shift (almost everyone does). I could fix the overshoot but it would be easier to tell DME to ignore it Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    http://datazap.me/u/bimmer305/dd20?l...12-16-19-21-22
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

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    Hi Josh,

    I'm the second owner of the car and bought it with ~ 30k miles on it. I also know the dealership history, and there is no evidence of rattling wastegates, or anything related to the turbos. I mean, everythings possible, but i don't think there's anything done to the wastegates. I hope, i get my reputation points done soon, then I'm allowed to post a log.

    Best,
    Clemens
    335i N54 E91, 6MT, DP, performance exhaust, COBB

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RayBan81 Click here to enlarge
    Hi Josh,

    I'm the second owner of the car and bought it with ~ 30k miles on it. I also know the dealership history, and there is no evidence of rattling wastegates, or anything related to the turbos. I mean, everythings possible, but i don't think there's anything done to the wastegates. I hope, i get my reputation points done soon, then I'm allowed to post a log.

    Best,
    Clemens
    Replied to your PM. Your WGDC is already less than 2%, so it looks like the issue is mechanical (tight wastegates). However, I sent you some instructions for adjusting the WG tables to try to tune it out.
    Josh Dankel
    ECU Engineer
    866.922.3059
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bimmer305 Click here to enlarge
    Josh thanks for your reply.

    I was referring to actual timing correction. It seems the DME pulls timing on the cylinder/s that are about to fire right after overboost. Every time timing pulls is on more than one cylinder, they are in firing order (1-5-3-6-2-4).

    I get no throttle closures because I modified the Throttle Angle Aggression in Overload to overlook certain amount of overboost (~1.5psi).

    To me it looks like there has to be a table or something that pulls timing based on amount of overboost per rpm or something.

    I though it will be a load limit table because it would reduction on timing instead of timing correction.

    Pretty much this happens on every log because I overshoot post shift (almost everyone does). I could fix the overshoot but it would be easier to tell DME to ignore it Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    http://datazap.me/u/bimmer305/dd20?l...12-16-19-21-22
    Timing corrections are solely based on feedback from the knock sensors. Some correction post-shift is normal due to extra noise as the car moves into the next gear, but in your log it looks like Cylinder 1 and 4 are very unhappy. Do you get corrections any other time or just after the shift? Have you tried the normal steps like spark plugs, swapping coils, etc? Ever had the intake valves walnut blasted?
    Josh Dankel
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    Click here to enlarge
    web | forum | blog | facebook | twitter | youtube

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Timing corrections are solely based on feedback from the knock sensors. Some correction post-shift is normal due to extra noise as the car moves into the next gear, but in your log it looks like Cylinder 1 and 4 are very unhappy. Do you get corrections any other time or just after the shift? Have you tried the normal steps like spark plugs, swapping coils, etc? Ever had the intake valves walnut blasted?
    Correction only happen post ship when overboost.

    Coils, spark plugs, injectors and walnut blasted were done ~10000 miles ago.

    Timing correction is not always on cylinder 1 and 4, it is random on other cylinders. So I though it is hardware problem.

    Fuel pressure and octane is also good. E60 and trims stay between 0 and 10 throughout the entire log.

    I make it not overboost and we'll see if that's the cause or not.

    Thanks.
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

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